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Community Debate - Would you support...

    • 9115 posts
    February 24, 2020 3:47 AM PST

    Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    • 627 posts
    February 24, 2020 3:59 AM PST
    Yes cosmetics are fine, fun and fantastic.

    Boost and any kind of p2w, pay for special servers are a no go in my book.
    • 1479 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:26 AM PST

    Merchandises, why not

     

    Cosmetics please no. Ingame items or appearance should be obtained ingame.

    • 12 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:47 AM PST

    In-game stores are cancer imo. 


    This post was edited by Zonk at February 24, 2020 4:49 AM PST
    • 56 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:53 AM PST

    I believe it is a dangerous path to go down. All it takes is one thing that some vocally loud person thinks looks p2w and labels the game as such and it can gt that reputation fairly or not. It is also a thing of how much time do you put in it vs. the actual game design. I personally like to know what I see a play having/wearing/using they earned it in-game. 

     

    • 1399 posts
    February 24, 2020 5:08 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    in game Cosmetics no, not at all and I would feel it's a betrayal of trust. If I'm paying a Sub I expect the developers to be creating actual content. that I can obtain without additional cost... Putting game content in a store is double dipping.

     

    Outside of the game Merch, is a differant story. What you have now cup's, shirt's ect all good, add in some race class models, posters, maps, it's all good 

    • 438 posts
    February 24, 2020 5:11 AM PST
    Agreed 100% with what Zorkon said.
    • 557 posts
    February 24, 2020 5:37 AM PST

    I hate that this question is even being asked.

    If by "support" you mean conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with a merchandise store for out-of-game items like t-shirts, mugs, class or racial key fobs or whatever you dream up for players to show off their gamer nerdity.  Selling any sort of in-game item is a slippery slope which has ruined far too many games.  I would drop all interest in Pantheon at the slightest hint of pay-to win.

    If "support" means am I likely to spend money, then I'd give an unqualified NO.  I donated what I could afford as a pledge and will plan on paying a monthly subscription, as I knew in both of these cases all of the money went directly to VR.  I'm never going to buy a $60 CAD t-shirt.  

    • 50 posts
    February 24, 2020 5:49 AM PST

    Like others are stating, a cash-shop is a very very slipperly slope. I would support a very limited shop that only sold items that had zero impact on adventuring, crafting, or any aspect of character performance.  I don't even really like cosmetic armor because then people could be wearing rags, but look like Kings, which detracts from obtaining in-game armor sets.  

    If there is a cash shop, it would need to be limited to maybe something like a non-combat vanity pet or decorations for a guild hall. Please no XP potions, unlimited illusion clickies, teleport clickies, etc etc

    • 1315 posts
    February 24, 2020 5:49 AM PST

    Cosmetic cash shops are a bit of a conflict of interest, at least on a very small team.  Content creation is one of the biggest bottle necks to keeping an MMO fresh.  If a company is monetarily rewarded for creating content that does not contribute to keeping the main content fresh then they will continue to devote more an more man power to cash shop items rather than sub paid for content updates.

    Now a semi crazy idea would be for community members to submit art objects to be added to a cosmetics shop.  The community members would need to “sell” their art copyright to VR so that the object would change ownership, allowing for VR to both use it in the shop and in the main game library.  If VR only had to have someone sorting for quality control and setting continuity then it wouldn’t take away from inhouse creative manpower and the conflict of interest would go away.

    All that being said I actually don’t like gear appearance cash shops at all.  All appearances in game should have some meaning.  It may mean that you sacrificed a cool looking item to make a cosmetic item, or you spent a lot of time acquiring an object modification item or you just hunted until you found an item that fit your aesthetic that also had your desired stats.  No matter what the look required in game play hours not out of game pay hours.  Cash shop appearances also often are jumping the shark in order to drive up quarterly sales which heads down the road of the pizza box dipper warrior.  Crafting also can/should have enough visual optimization to significantly reduce the value of a cash shop anyway.

    • 500 posts
    February 24, 2020 6:48 AM PST

    Merchandise is great. T shirts, mugs, art  etc... are fine. But, as others have stated, its a slippery slope with any in game shop... so a hard no on that.

    • 4 posts
    February 24, 2020 6:55 AM PST

    No in-game purchases please.

    • 3852 posts
    February 24, 2020 6:58 AM PST

    I agree in all respects with the people that say that any cash shop is bad, for the good reasons they give. Even if it starts off limited to cosmetics. 

    The only things I would like it to sell are out-of-game items like real-world shirts or mugs, or things traditionally charged for even in "old school" MMOs such as extra character slots.

    But - and this is an enormous but - not to be confused with an elephant's posterior which is a gigantic butt - I would unhappily "support" (the word you used) a cash store if VR felt it necessary to make ends meet. I view myself as a pragmatist not a purist. An eighty percent perfect game that succeeeds is far better for all of us than a 100% perfect game that flops.

    VR - I strongly suggest that you *not* have a cash shop at release. See how many subscribers you get and how the cash-flow holds up. If you feel the need have a cash shop developed and ready to roll out (cosmetics not "pay-to-win") if and *only* if the rollout doesn't generate enough subscribers to keep the door open. Apart from my not wanting a cash shop I fear that it will repel enough of your core supporters that in and of itself its existance will reduce initial subscriptions in a non-trivial manner.

    • 200 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:31 AM PST
    Y'all already have a cosmetic/merchandise store..

    In game however, HELL NO!
    • 1785 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:42 AM PST

    I would support a cosmetic/service store if and only if the following were true.

    - There were absolutely no items of any kind available that affects character stats.

    - There was a serious commitment never to add items such as level or experience boosts in the future

    - For every nice cosmetic item added to the store, another 1-2 cosmetic items (or equivalent) are added that can be obtained via gameplay.

    - The store is *never* advertised in-game via a popup or any other method.  Only via the launcher and the website.

     

    I'm totally fine with things like costume appearance items, race change potions, free makeovers from the barber, and so on being in the store.  But it's a very fine line to walk as mentioned above.  Even the games that have managed to mostly walk the line well have still put items in their stores that they really shouldn't have.

     

    • 368 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:49 AM PST

    I'd prefer the avoidance of cash shops at all costs. Everything you see in game should be obtainable in game.

    • 197 posts
    February 24, 2020 8:05 AM PST

    From the FAQ: “Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’”

    With all due respect, I would think you are aware of your company’s own tenets, so one can only assume this is just meant as some sort of thought experiment or to promote engagement. If the latter, you also know that whenever it is brought up, those threads tend to explode and become quite volatile, which leads to them getting locked down with some statement, like “Our policy on cash shops is clear. This thread will now be closed.” Is that the kind of engagement you really want to facilitate? 

    So knowing that, unless the game’s tenets are changing, I can’t see the point in this question. Cash shops are the scourge of MMOs, and for many people, a line that can’t be crossed. 

    • 7 posts
    February 24, 2020 8:16 AM PST

    I don't mind a cosmetic shop due to the fact it will add alot more uniqueness to each character, as long as there are zero character boosts that can be bought with real money.

    • 200 posts
    February 24, 2020 8:27 AM PST

    Therek said:

    From the FAQ: “Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’”

    With all due respect, I would think you are aware of your company’s own tenets, so one can only assume this is just meant as some sort of thought experiment or to promote engagement. If the latter, you also know that whenever it is brought up, those threads tend to explode and become quite volatile, which leads to them getting locked down with some statement, like “Our policy on cash shops is clear. This thread will now be closed.” Is that the kind of engagement you really want to facilitate? 

    So knowing that, unless the game’s tenets are changing, I can’t see the point in this question. Cash shops are the scourge of MMOs, and for many people, a line that can’t be crossed. 

     

    ^ this...I'm sure as a company VR is trying to figure out how to make more money after release (completely understand and agree VR should explore other options). Just don't add a cosmetic shop that washes out the rest of the game.

    • 20 posts
    February 24, 2020 8:46 AM PST

    Here is where I draw the line for MMORPGs:

    Against the idea of "transmutes" or making a piece of gear look (completely) different than what it actually is.  If it looks somewhat different based on race or gender, that is fine.  If there was a system to adjust the look slightly without changing other players' recognition of the item, that is fine (though something I've never seen done).

    As most people mention, completely against the idea of selling power.  No buying boosts, or buying gear that affects combat.

    Of course there are still mounts, pets, and maybe some housing stuff.  I might be ok with these so long as the mounts were slow and pets were non-combat.  I suppose I am ok with them being targetted for role playing.  

     

    Ultimately though, I would rather pay a higher monthly rate than deal with an in game cash shop.

    After spending some time with Classic WoW, I have enjoyed looking upon my peers and knowing what gear they were sporting.  When I see a player using an unusual mount for their race, I know what they went through to make it happen.  When I see unique pets, I know that I can obtain them as well without spending cash and it drives me to do so.  There is no "pride and accomplishment" for buying something out of the cash shop, but there is when you work for it.  And while most players would draw that line at combat related items, I think it takes a toll on the soul of a game when you cannot achieve cosmetic goals without pulling out your wallet.

    • 1273 posts
    February 24, 2020 9:02 AM PST

    No, certainlyl not.  Anytime real life money effects in-game play (even if it's just cosmetic) it takes away from the gaming experience for me.  

     

    Edit:  haha, after posting my answer I went back and read the others...not much of a debate so far :)  Almost total agreement that we as a community would not support the idea.


    This post was edited by Ranarius at February 24, 2020 9:08 AM PST
    • 291 posts
    February 24, 2020 9:57 AM PST

    I think the best way for pantheon to make money on merchandise.... especially expensive merch..... is to put the ammount spent in store toward your pledge total, but maybe its to late for that.

     

    That said a cash shop in game is potentially game breaking from the perspective of what this game was supposed to be imo.

    • 144 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:08 AM PST
    Theoretically it seems fine.

    Realistically, no.

    1) its just too dangerous to have.

    2) cosmetics always kill the immersion in my opinion.

    2a) cosmetics have to look good enough for people to fork money over. That means it will look as good if not better than end game gear. It also ruins the point of being able to look at gear and know exactly what it is and how hard somebody worked for it...which Joppa pushes a lot.

    2b). It's so stupid to see a clothy wearing a set of full plate looking gear just because it's cosmetic.
    • 1428 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:32 AM PST

    reminds me of bdo, fallout76 and any ea game.  it starts with cosmetics.... then conveniences... then p2w.

    many devs have fallen to the temptation of cash shops.

    the real question is:  are the devs disciplined enough not to put in 'conveniences and p2w'?

    i haven't seen any game that did this not go p2w at some point.

     

     

    if i were vr, i'd not have transmogs, but have a cash shop selling cosmetics, pets, then ease in the cash for in game currency like wow, then go full blown when the game starts dying. (cough cough do it wow u know u need to at this point.  cash out while ur ip is still alive and milk the customers for everything they hold dear left in the game.)

     

    really though, isn't cash shops antithetical to vr's core values?  oh wait there is that bit that 'to make sure the game is profitable and sustainable part'.   hm.  yea put in a cash shop for cosmetics and not allow any transmogs OR have a ticket that can be bought in the cash shop to transmog gear.  yea i'd do that.  1 dollar for each piece you want to xmog. 5 dollars for w'EA'pons, 10 dollars for legendEAry stuff.

    arlight lets GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo.

    • 2130 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:35 AM PST

    Service based cash shop. Race changes, name changes, gender changes, server transfers, account transfers, etc. Automated systems could be set up for all of these things with a cost attached.

    As far as in-game cosmetic items, I would prefer not to because I want the appearance of items in-game to have meaning, and that meaning gets diminished when it has a real life price tag.

    On the flip side, I have spent thousands on in-game cosmetics across numerous games, and I can respect the amount of revenue it brings in. It is a compromise I am willing to make if it leads to more/better content generation post launch.