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Today's Stream - 8 Pages of Spells with One Real Actionbar

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    • 389 posts
    February 21, 2020 6:20 AM PST

    I can understand why this is such a hot topic, my 2cp is this..... A smaller LAS leaves the option open for alternate expansion in the future. It is not necessarily the max. Im quite confident the community would lose its collective mind if the options were 2 few for 2 long. We should trust the dev team to navigate this in real time after the games live, rather than fight over postulations both sides are sure to make. I think the dev team has proven to us already that they are fighting on behalf of both persectives and are settling on the solutions that = long term health of game. They have proven themselves to be the most level headed among us, and thats a marvelous sign.

    • 397 posts
    February 21, 2020 6:32 AM PST

    My stance on this is to make it similar to EQ1.  Limited amount of spells/abilities but able to change mid-combat *if* you can pull it off.  Devs can make the time it takes to drop and memorize new abilities lengthy if they really want to punish you for swapping abilities.  I thought the ability to swap in and out new abilities in EQ1 led to emergent gameplay and some fun and intense moments at times.  I'm all for that experience again.  What I am certain I do NOT want are two things:  1)  Being unable to change my spells/abilities while in combat, and 2)  Having ALL my abilities available at all times ala EQ2.  *BOTH* of those two concepts suck ass.

    • 389 posts
    February 21, 2020 6:50 AM PST

    Mathir said:

    My stance on this is to make it similar to EQ1.  Limited amount of spells/abilities but able to change mid-combat *if* you can pull it off.  Devs can make the time it takes to drop and memorize new abilities lengthy if they really want to punish you for swapping abilities.  I thought the ability to swap in and out new abilities in EQ1 led to emergent gameplay and some fun and intense moments at times.  I'm all for that experience again.  What I am certain I do NOT want are two things:  1)  Being unable to change my spells/abilities while in combat, and 2)  Having ALL my abilities available at all times ala EQ2.  *BOTH* of those two concepts suck ass.

     

    I agree with this fully. Give me the option to pop DA or drop aggro etc and mem on the fly. I loved those high presure moments in EQ during a big fight, and I absolutely was bored to tears with every ability on screen/on and spammed. meh. As I stated above, it seems to me the dev team is both aware and navigating appropriately.

    • 1569 posts
    February 21, 2020 6:56 AM PST

    Mathir said:

    My stance on this is to make it similar to EQ1.  Limited amount of spells/abilities but able to change mid-combat *if* you can pull it off.  Devs can make the time it takes to drop and memorize new abilities lengthy if they really want to punish you for swapping abilities.  I thought the ability to swap in and out new abilities in EQ1 led to emergent gameplay and some fun and intense moments at times.  I'm all for that experience again.  What I am certain I do NOT want are two things:  1)  Being unable to change my spells/abilities while in combat, and 2)  Having ALL my abilities available at all times ala EQ2.  *BOTH* of those two concepts suck ass.

    Yeah, i don't see swapping being a bad thing, i get the concept its trying to achieve, but at the same time there will be moments it would royally screw you and you know it would of never been a problem if you could of simply memmed the spell and went on your way.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at February 21, 2020 6:58 AM PST
    • 1106 posts
    February 21, 2020 8:22 AM PST

    Alyonyah said:

    Mathir said:

    My stance on this is to make it similar to EQ1.  Limited amount of spells/abilities but able to change mid-combat *if* you can pull it off.  Devs can make the time it takes to drop and memorize new abilities lengthy if they really want to punish you for swapping abilities.  I thought the ability to swap in and out new abilities in EQ1 led to emergent gameplay and some fun and intense moments at times.  I'm all for that experience again.  What I am certain I do NOT want are two things:  1)  Being unable to change my spells/abilities while in combat, and 2)  Having ALL my abilities available at all times ala EQ2.  *BOTH* of those two concepts suck ass.

     

    I agree with this fully. Give me the option to pop DA or drop aggro etc and mem on the fly. I loved those high presure moments in EQ during a big fight, and I absolutely was bored to tears with every ability on screen/on and spammed. meh. As I stated above, it seems to me the dev team is both aware and navigating appropriately.

    I'm totally with these two. It was said earlier in this thread that in EQ1 you could not swap out abilities in combat. That is untrue, you could but 1)you had two sit. 2)sitting increased your agro, or your agro range (I don't recall what exactly it was). It was a trade off risk vs. Reward thing, you could change,out a spell IF you could pull it off. 

    Combat had started but you haven't attacked yet.

    Move far enough away.

    Wipe your agro first. (If you had that spell loaded)

    Quick enough spell load that the mob couldn't reach you in time.

    EQ1 controlled loading spells in combat in a natural immersive way. The limited size spell bar made the need to learn this loading in combat and what spells to have loaded like a skill in itself. As per my example of wiping agro to load another spell..... the wizard spell Cuncuss just got more valuable in a dungeon setting where Distance probably wouldn't be an option as it would in an outdoor zone.

    • 887 posts
    February 21, 2020 8:34 AM PST

    Big dislike of the LAS.  Having abiliteis I can't use is dumb.

    • 1897 posts
    February 21, 2020 8:45 AM PST

    Kittik said:

    Big dislike of the LAS.  Having abiliteis I can't use is dumb.

    Sorry to correct you, but the LAS does not prevent you from using an ability, just from having them all available all the time.  You can still use them provided you put them in your bar before entering combat.

    A LAS as you describe would mean you can only ever have 8 spells stored in your codex at any time, having to delete older spells to get new ones.

    Actually I'm just teasing a bit...using this to up my postcount +1.  :D

    • 389 posts
    February 21, 2020 8:48 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    Kittik said:

    Big dislike of the LAS.  Having abiliteis I can't use is dumb.

    Sorry to correct you, but the LAS does not prevent you from using an ability, just from having them all available all the time.  You can still use them provided you put them in your bar before entering combat.

    A LAS as you describe would mean you can only ever have 8 spells stored in your codex at any time, having to delete older spells to get new ones.

    Actually I'm just teasing a bit...using this to up my postcount +1.  :D

     

    But you are spot on. If they made us able to mem while in combat it would go another step in crushing this narrative while keeping some of the purity behind the LAS in the first place. Perhaps thats the compromise.... the ability to mem in combat.

    • 1252 posts
    February 21, 2020 9:48 AM PST

    let's put on our EA thinking caps my fellow earthlings.

    let's monetize las :D

    2 dollar per additional las slot and 1 dollar par uas slot

    start off las8 uas6

    can expand up to las24 uas12

     

    ooh this is dangerous cuz i would actually pay to expand my las :O


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 21, 2020 9:52 AM PST
    • 69 posts
    February 21, 2020 9:52 AM PST

    Kittik said:

    Big dislike of the LAS.  Having abiliteis I can't use is dumb.

     

    So you must think specs in games like WoW are dumb.  Since it is just another way of limiting your abilites.

    • 1897 posts
    February 21, 2020 9:56 AM PST

    stellarmind said:

    let's put on our EA thinking caps my fellow earthlings.

    let's monetize las :D

    2 dollar per additional las slot and 1 dollar par uas slot

    start off las8 uas6

    can expand up to las24 uas12

     

    ooh this is dangerous cuz i would actually pay to expand my las :O

    You've got it all wrong.  Each subsequent LAS slot is half again the cost of the previous slot while each subsequent UAS slot is twice that of the previous! 

    • 1252 posts
    February 21, 2020 10:02 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    You've got it all wrong.  Each subsequent LAS slot is half again the cost of the previous slot while each subsequent UAS slot is twice that of the previous! 

    spicy!  that's E-have to buy the A-thinking.  u know, i think swtor did something like this.  i remember on release, buying a premium sub to open the default 12 to 48??  a fuzzy memory.


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 21, 2020 10:02 AM PST
    • 389 posts
    February 21, 2020 10:16 AM PST

    stellarmind said:

    let's put on our EA thinking caps my fellow earthlings.

    let's monetize las :D

    2 dollar per additional las slot and 1 dollar par uas slot

    start off las8 uas6

    can expand up to las24 uas12

     

    ooh this is dangerous cuz i would actually pay to expand my las :O

     

    Id rather have to quest them or some such. Each slot is such a big deal when you have a base of 8. A lot of potential for worth while time sinks.

    • 1252 posts
    February 21, 2020 10:20 AM PST

    Alyonyah said:

    Id rather have to quest them or some such. Each slot is such a big deal when you have a base of 8. A lot of potential for worth while time sinks.

    or a legendary drop, kind of like the relics for acclimation or the ability point drops :O

    • 132 posts
    February 21, 2020 10:20 AM PST

     I think the actionbar size is perfect  and the buff bar above. 

    It makes spell selection going into content a strategy.

    It allows more  builds and makes it so even the same class can be different from one another. 

    I think Vr has done fantastic  in the 8 combat bar. If they go 10 possibly even 12 bar im ok with that i just hope its a expansion thing when new spells are added. 

    I hated having 4 bars on wow it was confusing and their was no way to keybind them it was just a mess where everyone had every spell all the time. 

    Dunno exact number but it was at least 30 too much.

    Gw2 action bars were fantastic  and this is similar without the weapon switching. 


    This post was edited by Kiera at February 21, 2020 10:29 AM PST
  • February 21, 2020 10:41 AM PST
    Amazing how many people posted on this topic. Didn't think it was such a hot debate. Really appreciate all the comments and addressing the concerns.

    I want to give a shout out to Brasse, great comment. I must ask, did you play eq2? That game was bar overload. Anything your hearts desire was on your bars, including a bunch of stuff you don't really need.

    Several people posted on max level vs low level spells. I imagine that is the case and probably 2/3 or more of the spell book might be low level. Also worth pointing out, they didn't appear max level yet and skills will also be found by playing the game. My point was less about the total number and more about the possibility of a big gap between possibilities and slots available.

    Just to add, I do like the idea of limited bars as it leads to thoughtful engagements. Hearing that the devs are looking at this and still flexible to expand is reassuring. I would hate to be in a world with a bunch of item clicks or clicks and buffs that I constantly have to swap on and off my bars. It seems very "unfun" to have to add a buff to your bar every 20 minutes to cast it and remove from your bar. I know everyone will say the little bar at top, but again as long as it is balanced to available skills (in a reasonable way) I think that is great. I do, however, like the idea of having damage, healing, or utility spells that will be important to certain areas of the world. Really thinking about these as you travel to that location builds immersion and consequences in the game.
    • 389 posts
    February 21, 2020 10:42 AM PST

    stellarmind said:

    Alyonyah said:

    Id rather have to quest them or some such. Each slot is such a big deal when you have a base of 8. A lot of potential for worth while time sinks.

    or a legendary drop, kind of like the relics for acclimation or the ability point drops :O

     

    Now your talkin!

    • 1252 posts
    February 21, 2020 10:55 AM PST

    Kiera said:

     I think the actionbar size is perfect  and the buff bar above. 

    It makes spell selection going into content a strategy.

    It allows more  builds and makes it so even the same class can be different from one another. 

    I think Vr has done fantastic  in the 8 combat bar. If they go 10 possibly even 12 bar im ok with that i just hope its a expansion thing when new spells are added. 

    I hated having 4 bars on wow it was confusing and their was no way to keybind them it was just a mess where everyone had every spell all the time. 

    Dunno exact number but it was at least 30 too much.

    Gw2 action bars were fantastic  and this is similar without the weapon switching. 

    wow pvp arenas very much could use that many keybinds.

    the extreme case, resto druids used a keybind for each spell 3x at the highest level of competitive pvp.  due to the nature of tab targeting and arena targeting, this reduced the amount of time by fractions of a second while minimizing input error.

    3 spells for 3 friendly targets = 9

    3 cc's for 3 hostile targets = 9

    that's 18 total not inlcluding the situational abilities,which wow had alot of and the additonal moves in the druids other forms.

    there's also alot of reasoning to do casting like this.  feint targeting.  so when it looked like i was about to cc the dps, i'm actually ccing the healer.

    high level players had to have a different spatial awareness to understand 'the setup'

    becomes a bluff and check game for the advantage.

    if ya were to ask me, i'd say druids needed about 180+apm to play at pro level.  that's acheivable with 48 keybinds.

    gw2 is more of a live action targeting.  so actually missing your abilities was a thing.  it was okay less keybinds since spacing, positioning and being able to hit becomes more pronounced.

    i think a better example of it would be fighting games and how input error happens, even in high level play. (usually some combination keystroke multi direction plus button combo)

    so bdo would be a great example.


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 21, 2020 10:59 AM PST
    • 389 posts
    February 21, 2020 10:55 AM PST

    FamineDeathbringer said: Amazing how many people posted on this topic.

     

    Talk about post ratio quality :)

    • 283 posts
    February 21, 2020 11:00 AM PST

    I've always preferred games with a LAS and having read through this post I really like the direction VR is taking. I will have to just agree to disagree with those that want more action bars at thier disposal.

    • 480 posts
    February 21, 2020 11:16 AM PST
    The whole "strategy" defense for the LAS is actually hurting the game. MMO's are suppose to be fun and dynamic, LAS turns combat into a more static thing. Like a turn-based game. The strategy of it is lost after you have experienced anything, it's new one time. There is more strategy and smart execution involved in more abilities not less. Managing timing, Mana/resources, cooldowns, hit points, spells, abilities, etc while in combat is much more immersive and fun.

    EQ removed the need to stare at your spellbook for a reason (it was bad design), we don't need to go back to that.
    • 237 posts
    February 21, 2020 11:45 AM PST

    Fragile said: The whole "strategy" defense for the LAS is actually hurting the game. MMO's are suppose to be fun and dynamic, LAS turns combat into a more static thing. Like a turn-based game. The strategy of it is lost after you have experienced anything, it's new one time. There is more strategy and smart execution involved in more abilities not less. Managing timing, Mana/resources, cooldowns, hit points, spells, abilities, etc while in combat is much more immersive and fun. EQ removed the need to stare at your spellbook for a reason (it was bad design), we don't need to go back to that.

    Even with the dynamic disposition that proponents of the ani-LAS are stating as a reason to not have LAS? Opinions are like noses, everyone has one and they all smell.

    What some find fun others do not and vice-versa. I am sure a comprimise can be reached on a number of active abilities, but to have them all ready at all times is a travesty to what this game is trying to be.

    Its not hurting the game, it may be against your opinion sure, but that doesnt mean it is hurting the game.

     

    How about VR make an actual poll/survey for this so that we can get a real consensus instead of regurgitating the same opinions over and over again. 

    Poll # 1 Desired Hotbar Quantity

    A) 1

    B) 2

    C) 3

    D) 4

    E) 10

    F) Let me have a 100x100 pixel space to render the game while the rest of the screen is filled with hotbars.

     

    Poll # 2 Desired "Ability Slots" Poll

    A) Up to 10 

    B) 10-15

    C) 15-20

    D) 20-25

    E) No Limit Other Than Available Hotkeys

     

    Poll # 3 Desired "Utility Slots" Poll

    A) 6

    B) 8

    C) 10

    D) 12

    E) No Limit Other Than Available Hotkeys


    This post was edited by arazons at February 21, 2020 11:46 AM PST
    • 1296 posts
    February 21, 2020 12:03 PM PST

    This dev team doesn't (hasn't ever?) to the best of my knowledge, utilize polls.  I think they're even banned/verboten on these forums.
    Just another benefit of the crowd-focused, community-involving, transparent development process of small studio crowdsourced games. /s
    I've seen other small studios utilize polls and similar community-driven mechanisms in the past.  In those cases, they ask, and then ignore (or selectively ignore) the responses.
    So, I suppose, given that scenario, it's better to simply not ask. :)

    • 808 posts
    February 21, 2020 12:13 PM PST

    Fragile said: The whole "strategy" defense for the LAS is actually hurting the game. MMO's are suppose to be fun and dynamic, LAS turns combat into a more static thing. Like a turn-based game. The strategy of it is lost after you have experienced anything, it's new one time. There is more strategy and smart execution involved in more abilities not less. Managing timing, Mana/resources, cooldowns, hit points, spells, abilities, etc while in combat is much more immersive and fun. EQ removed the need to stare at your spellbook for a reason (it was bad design), we don't need to go back to that.

    I agree with Fragile here.  Don't get me wrong, having a LAS is good, but 8 is far too small when your class has so many abilities available.  This would definitely drive people away from playing tank roles (who would virtually NEVER be able to switch their abilities in combat) giving a huge fun-factor advantage to all other classes.  Add: And allowing the ability to just open the codex and swap skills into your hotbar without having to sit or not being interrupted from taking damage does nothing but include an additional cumbersome mechanic that serves absolutely 0 functionality at the cost of huge inconvenience.

    Perhaps a good compromise here would be having different LAS for different classes... this could promote the use of some classes over others.  I'd imagine 8 combat slots + 6 out of combat slots is probably overkill for something like an Enchanter or pure DPS (who can change abilities during combat), but playing a DL I can easily list 8 abilities you'll want to have on your bar:

    Essence Thief
    Baleful Serving
    Leaden Blood
    Sanguine Shield
    Thresh
    Edge of Midnight
    Abysal Strike
    Splatter

    That's about half of the combat abilities listed on the DL page, not counting the anti magic group ones like canopy of blood... and that page obviously doesn't list all of the available skills.


    This post was edited by Darch at February 21, 2020 12:18 PM PST
    • 237 posts
    February 21, 2020 12:15 PM PST

    Eh, I suppose they dont. There are the "poll" like questions that get posted, "would you rather..." but they are not really a poll just a platform for opinions hehe.