vjek said:Vandraad said:I think that one of the main points in this argument is not that LAS as a concept is bad but rather it is the specific limit of 8. I'll go out on a limb and say that the LAS opponents would be far less critical if, say, there existed 2 bars of 12 slots each where we could put in 24 of any spell/abiliites we wanted. They would not be changeable in combat, mind you, but still offers a greater degree of flexibility and ability to strategically apply 24 spells/abilities to better (not perfectly) counter a far larger spectrum of encounters.
Let me make it clear that I'm not saying there should ONLY be 2 12-slot hotbars, just 2 12-slot hotbars for spells/abilities. We should still have quite a few additional hotbars where we can place things like bags, primary inventory slots (for activating things like potions) and items (for those items that have right click effects) or for placing macro buttons (because the game does have built-in macro capabilities from what we've seen).
Agreed. If that's where they started, I probably wouldn't have spent the time I have here either. A couple of hotkey bars for in combat and a few hotkey bars for out of combat, now we're in territory I can accept. But that's not what we're seeing today, nor what is being lobbied for by some here.
vjek said:If that's what they demo'd or started with? I wouldn't have ever commented on this thread, nor any subsequent thread, on the subject. :)
And I 100% agree on the arbitrary number of "additional hotbars" that are going to be required/desired for miscellaneous or whatever other thing the player wants to assign. Seems like an expected feature.stellarmind said: ... the typical console controller only have 10-12 buttons, excluding movement. ...
Yep, saw that one coming from a long way off. Absolutely the worst possible reason to do it, yet, I can see it in the realm of possibility.
I've played MMO's that only permit controller-friendly-counts of concurrent abilities. I didn't play them very long, for this very reason.
Personally? I have no interest in playing an MMO where the primary UI is butchered to accomodate consoles. I know of no-one who does, either.
If an MMO is being designed with the limitations of console users as a limiting factor, the MMO is highly suspect for me already. I dont play on consoles in large part due to their limiting factors. We have a couple of consoles, and the kid plays them all the time. I rarely join because I seek out more broad freedoms in gameplay than I can find there. It's why I'm predominantly an MMO player. Or at least I was predominantly an MMO player until most MMO's started designing to the lowest common denominators of both players and capabilities. Hell, that's why I'm here and why I pledged. I wanted to get away from what I see as a dillution of the genre.
Feyshtey said:Hokanu said:vjek said:philo said:Why would the number of dispositions possible have anything to do with the amount of skills a player can have loaded at once?Well hopefully they change their mind and it won't. :) In a logical design, it doesn't or shouldn't. In the current design, it can.
As has been mentioned many times by many others in the thread already, if you have multiple dispositions that require more LAS slots than you can load, it forcibly guarantees failure. Not really much more to it than that.
EDIT: damn these forums and their lack of spellcheck, despite spellcheck in messages. grr.Isnt the objective of this game that the group as a whole comes together, to plug all the holes that the LAS bar restricts, through planning and preperation. We shouldnt be considering a single players ability to counter all boss mechanics, thats some other MMO, we should be considering how the whole group comes together with their strengths and weaknesses to overcome the mechanic, a feature oif this game which is further bolstered by a LAS in my opinion.
Make encounters hard, make them require a bit of everything, make them dynamic, make them change on the fly, and let groups work out ways with limited options to beat it by working together and maximising their potential as a group not a individual.
The objective isnt negated by removal of LAS. Just because a player can do a multitude of things at any given moment, it doesn't mean that he can do all things a group needs, in the time that it's appropriate, with the reaction rate that is required, at a substantial level to replace even the other classes in the group that could otherwise fill those specific roles.
Defining who is going to primarily fill what roles in the group is still essential. The communication, the teamwork, the cohesion, the cooperation; they are all still critical. This is in no way in conflict with the objective you outlined.
Absolutely mate, thats is right, but LAS still promotes it to a greater degree, thats why i like it :)
If you have more in your toolkit at your disposal at any given moment your less reliant on others to make up short falls.
We just want slightly different thing and to play in different ways, no amount of back and forth will change that really, its at our core.
And i do agree with you up there mate, what you have said is sound and can be applied to both arguments to more or less the same extent, i just prefer the effect that a limited bar has on my game play
Has anyone seen Asmongold playing Dark Souls? Just take a look on YouTube, it's so painful to see how WoW has made him literally incapable of playing any other game that forces you to actually think about your actions, rather than mindlessly mashing an 'I win' button. He is the kind of guy that wants open action bars. Just watch him playing the game, he literally ignores everything, spams the same key, over and over again, and the game subsequently wrecks him at every opportunity (rightfully so). His attention span is non-existent, he never consciously thinks about any of his actions, even after he dies repeatedly, and he misses pretty much everything the game is designed to let you experience as a player (including the environment itself).
He's currently going through his second RL meltdown after burning out on World of Warcraft (again), and you know why? Becuase his life is completely dedicated to that game, and the game is a total mess because of things such as open action bars, with everything available, all of the time. You think about nothing, you react by muscle memory, and you subsequently become nothing more than an automated button masher. Much of the newer MMO community plough through content like there's no tomorrow, they want everything available, all of the time, spamming buttons, not paying attention to the environment they're in, it's just more, more, more with zero interaction / socializing (unless you consider the toxic, verbal abuse as a form of social interaction, that is)... They obsess over damage meters, and are so toxic to each other, it's just painful to watch. The people they're grouped with just run and spam buttons too, hacking and slashing through waves of mobs, they rarely socialise because there's no downtime, they just group, spam buttons from the entrance, to the end of an instanced dungeon, and then disband the group, never to communicate again (for the most part).
I know those that want these bars open will find it incredibly odd to make a correlation between a game UI element, and social interation / behaviour, but there is truth in it.
If VR crumble to this pressure, those that are pushing them to deviate away from their original design goals will attack every other aspect of the game they disagree with like rabbid wolves, and they will not stop.
VR has the choice to not open the flood gates now.
Feel free to flame me, I've got plenty of marshmallows to toast.
arazons said:It doesnt necessarily guarantee a wipe. Just because there are dispositions that you are not prepared for, it doesnt necessarily mean that it cannot be overcome with a non-prefered or unorthodox setup. That is part of the fun and challenge.
nope it shouldn't. i assume it's around a 20% chance of successfully getting through without deaths. the big thing is the formula to dictate success of the encounter.
i'll reiterate it so it's a bit clearer. i'm theorycrafting with las8 uas6(since i can't actually test this)
factors that determine outcome of encounter:
planning up to 60% of the success without party death(this i consider much higher with so much emphasis on setting up las properly)
execution up to 10%
adapting/flexibility up to 10%
individual skill 10%
party synergy 10%
even if the party only prepped las 30% properly they can do other stuff perfectly giving the rate of success without death to be 70% those are really good numbers, but not everyone plays perfectly and not everyone is going to be perfect. the realistic % is probably more around 50%
i'd like to see a 20% spread for each :o
oh i should tie this to the las so it makes sense. a tighter las means planning % is much higher at a bit of expense from the other 4 factors. i just want a more balanced factor % for outcome of encounter without deaths.
Hokanu said:stellarmind said:oohh here's a theory:
the typical console controller only have 10-12 buttons, excluding movement.
the reason to have such a small las8 and a uas6 is for cross platform play
DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
Hahah I love your intensity reducing posts in these threads Stellar :) Thanks for your light heartedness!
it's easier for people to translate what they mean when things don't feel hostile :D and my deal is to make sure i understand what people are saying
Shadowbound said:Has anyone seen Asmongold playing Dark Souls? Just take a look on YouTube, it's so painful to see how WoW has made him literally incapable of playing any other game that forces you to actually think about your actions, rather than mindlessly mashing an 'I win' button. He is the kind of guy that wants open action bars. Just watch him playing the game, he literally ignores everything, spams the same key, over and over again, and the game subsequently wrecks him at every opportunity (rightfully so). His attention span is non-existent, he never consciously thinks about any of his actions, even after he dies repeatedly, and he misses pretty much everything the game is designed to let you experience as a player (including the environment itself).
He's currently going through his second RL meltdown after burning out on World of Warcraft (again), and you know why? Becuase his life is completely dedicated to that game, and the game is a total mess because of things such as open action bars, with everything available, all of the time. You think about nothing, you react by muscle memory, and you subsequently become nothing more than an automated button masher. Much of the newer MMO community plough through content like there's no tomorrow, they want everything available, all of the time, spamming buttons, not paying attention to the environment they're in, it's just more, more, more with zero interaction / socializing (unless you consider the toxic, verbal abuse as a form of social interaction, that is)... They obsess over damage meters, and are so toxic to each other, it's just painful to watch. The people they're grouped with just run and spam buttons too, hacking and slashing through waves of mobs, they rarely socialise because there's no downtime, they just group, spam buttons from the entrance, to the end of an instanced dungeon, and then disband the group, never to communicate again (for the most part).
I know those that want these bars open will find it incredibly odd to make a correlation between a game UI element, and social interation / behaviour, but there is truth in it.
If VR crumble to this pressure, those that are pushing them to deviate away from their original design goals will attack every other aspect of the game they disagree with like rabbid wolves, and they will not stop.
VR has the choice to not open the flood gates now.
Feel free to flame me, I've got plenty of marshmallows to toast.
there's also other mechanics involved in darksouls that aren't present in wow. such as, targeting, stamina management, frame data(i guess it could be interpeted as hefty gcd)
so there's skill involved with darksouls that doesn't exist in wow.
wow really dont' have to worry about targeting, just need to be in range to perform an action. they also gutted resource management lol so it's dev design to make it a spammy button smasher cuz it's insta feel gud with cd management and repetitive ability sequencing.
i should add that most players aren't about open action bar slot. just enough to be flexible. i'm okay with las as long as it's not constricting and making gameplay tedious, like vanilla skyrim magic casting(extreme case of las2).
stellarmind said:Hokanu said:stellarmind said:oohh here's a theory:
the typical console controller only have 10-12 buttons, excluding movement.
the reason to have such a small las8 and a uas6 is for cross platform play
DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
Hahah I love your intensity reducing posts in these threads Stellar :) Thanks for your light heartedness!
it's easier for people to translate what they mean when things don't feel hostile :D and my deal is to make sure i understand what people are saying
I really hope consoles are not what they're aiming for in the long run, I know I disagree with open actions bars, but I absolutely don't want to see Pantheon turn into another game like ESO! The extreme limitations there, and 'action oriented' gameplay were aweful, I never even downloaded the game, 10-15 mins of gameplay from YouTube was enough for me to know I'd hate playing it!
FamineDeathbringer said:I would like to start off by saying this is my first post and the stream today was really solid. Really love the work that has gone into the new zone. The acclimation system is really looking amazing. I was however a bit worried. The big concern is around 8 pages of spells, at level 40 (not to mention spells that you might find through game play or future expansions), and only 1 real action bar to manage them. This seems like a step backwards. I get limiting them, so you aren't insanely overwhelmed, and your entire screen covered in actionbars, but how do you expect people to manage all these spells? It seems to me like most people (I know I thought about this when watching) will end up with the codex open and moving skills around mid-combat (or in between fights). If you are worried about immersion, I feel like this only makes it worse (far worse IMO). I know there are many arguments for and against multiple actionbars and Joppa has talked about the possiblility of adding more, but I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts and hopefully get some additional feedback from the devs.
Welcome to the forums! I'm not a game tester, but I was an avid player of EverQuest and I can say that it appears that Pantheon Rise of The Fallen is following a similar style for spell progression.
The eight pages of spells you noticed is because many of the spells have stronger versions of those spells later down the line. For example, imaging you were a wizard and got these spells:
At level 1 you get the spell "Frost Bolt" - it does 10 direct cold damage.
At level 8 you get the spell "Shock of Ice" - it does 30 direct cold damage.
At level 24 you get the spell "Frost Blast" - it does 100 direct cold damage.
At lvl 40 you get the spell "Ice Comet" - it does 300 direct cold damage.
As you can see from my example. While you would have four different versions of direct damage cold spells. Why would a level 40 have a 10 damage cold spell on their hot bar? The answer is - you wouldnt (well, sometimes you would...hehehe)
Your spell book will have LOTS of older spells in it, but having access to a limited hotbar will not have as large of an impact on gameplay as you're concerned with because you wont need those lower versions of the spell. You've still bought, quested, or found these spells so they're still a part of your codex.
I hope this helps address your concerns!
Shadowbound said:I really hope consoles are not what they're aiming for in the long run, I know I disagree with open actions bars, but I absolutely don't want to see Pantheon turn into another game like ESO! The extreme limitations there, and 'action oriented' gameplay were aweful, I never even downloaded the game, 10-15 mins of gameplay from YouTube was enough for me to know I'd hate playing it!
from a business point of view, it's not a bad idea to touch with a wider audience. consoles make up quite a pretty margin of untapped gamers. imagine how many gamers i could tap into crossplatforming into mobile.
cha ching $$$
stellarmind said:Shadowbound said:Has anyone seen Asmongold playing Dark Souls? Just take a look on YouTube, it's so painful to see how WoW has made him literally incapable of playing any other game that forces you to actually think about your actions, rather than mindlessly mashing an 'I win' button. He is the kind of guy that wants open action bars. Just watch him playing the game, he literally ignores everything, spams the same key, over and over again, and the game subsequently wrecks him at every opportunity (rightfully so). His attention span is non-existent, he never consciously thinks about any of his actions, even after he dies repeatedly, and he misses pretty much everything the game is designed to let you experience as a player (including the environment itself).
He's currently going through his second RL meltdown after burning out on World of Warcraft (again), and you know why? Becuase his life is completely dedicated to that game, and the game is a total mess because of things such as open action bars, with everything available, all of the time. You think about nothing, you react by muscle memory, and you subsequently become nothing more than an automated button masher. Much of the newer MMO community plough through content like there's no tomorrow, they want everything available, all of the time, spamming buttons, not paying attention to the environment they're in, it's just more, more, more with zero interaction / socializing (unless you consider the toxic, verbal abuse as a form of social interaction, that is)... They obsess over damage meters, and are so toxic to each other, it's just painful to watch. The people they're grouped with just run and spam buttons too, hacking and slashing through waves of mobs, they rarely socialise because there's no downtime, they just group, spam buttons from the entrance, to the end of an instanced dungeon, and then disband the group, never to communicate again (for the most part).
I know those that want these bars open will find it incredibly odd to make a correlation between a game UI element, and social interation / behaviour, but there is truth in it.
If VR crumble to this pressure, those that are pushing them to deviate away from their original design goals will attack every other aspect of the game they disagree with like rabbid wolves, and they will not stop.
VR has the choice to not open the flood gates now.
Feel free to flame me, I've got plenty of marshmallows to toast.
there's also other mechanics involved in darksouls that aren't present in wow. such as, targeting, stamina management, frame data(i guess it could be interpeted as hefty gcd)
so there's skill involved with darksouls that doesn't exist in wow.
wow really dont' have to worry about targeting, just need to be in range to perform an action. they also gutted resource management lol so it's dev design to make it a spammy button smasher cuz it's insta feel gud with cd management and repetitive ability sequencing.
i should add that most players aren't about open action bar slot. just enough to be flexible. i'm okay with las as long as it's not constricting and making gameplay tedious, like vanilla skyrim magic casting(extreme case of las2).
I did play WoW when it was first released, I made a Warlock and got to level 60 (max at the time), but I left shorty after when I realised how bad the PvP was (I came from Dark Age of Camelot). However, when I stumbled upon Asmongold's Twitch streams, many, many years later, I just couldn't believe how bad it was. Button mashing, abusing each other, making low lvl items 'look' like rare drops, it was just such a nightmare, and the people playing it really struggle with the idea of just slowing down, because if yoiu don't. the game is going to hand you your arse on a silver platter.
In truth, I am looking forward to WoW zombies getting owned at level 1! Over, and over, and over, and over again...
arazons said: Exactly my thoughts @shadowbound. This exact reason is why games are the way they are today. I watched EQ slide down a slippery slope for years yeilding to demand after demand from people wanting the game more solo friendly or easier to master, until it became the mess that it was around 2005/2006. Early on you could not switch abilities in combat it was suicide to do so. I played from 99-07 and finally left due to it becoming a game that no longer had challenges or risks, rewarding people far too often for little to no risk. VR needs to hold strong on their design goals or risk becoming what is already offered out there in other games. Not to be insulting, but there are games out there for people who want a buttonfest. I came here because of VR has proposed. I don't go into other games that I don't find interesting and demand that they change things to fit my preferences. I've been waiting for this game since before it was even a thought. So to those utterly opposed to what has been laid out before us, don't ruin what VR is trying to do here by running us down that same path that would have us playing another clone. Go find a game more to your liking.
Well said, I believe that is why most of us are here. Not that we want EQ3 but we want a game that gives is risk vs reward. One that allows us to learn from our mistakes rather than be spoonfeed content.
@Arazons - your assessment of EQ's decline is only partiy accurate. It was in fact dangerous (I wouldn't go so far as to say it was suicial) to try to mem a new spell, but only because it required you to sit and generate sit agro. It was very common and in fact often required for people to sit to try to get mana back during combat. The sit aspect was the danger, not the fact that you were changing spells. (And very early on because you had to look at your spellbook while swapping spells and couldn't see anything happening in combat around you.)
But there were 10 hotkey bars each with 12 slots that were available for all things non-spell related from day 1. Usuable for every melee skill, every non-combat skill, every clicky effect, and many macros. You could swap those during combat if you really found a need to and do so without sitting, but there wasnt really a need to.
And the number of actions available to you had absolutely zero to do with the soloability of EQ. What changed that were completely unrelated. It was increases in spell power, AA's that made players more resiliant and with greater damage avoidance, with increasing stat caps, with mass group buffs, with intruduction of mercenaries, and on and on. The configuration and functionality of the UI didn't really change in terms of spell slots or hotkeys.
@Shadowbound
Has anyone seen Asmongold playing Dark Souls? Just take a look on YouTube, it's so painful to see how WoW has made him literally incapable of playing any other game that forces you to actually think about your actions, rather than mindlessly mashing an 'I win' button. He is the kind of guy that wants open action bars. Just watch him playing the game, he literally ignores everything, spams the same key, over and over again, and the game subsequently wrecks him at every opportunity (rightfully so). His attention span is non-existent, he never consciously thinks about any of his actions, even after he dies repeatedly, and he misses pretty much everything the game is designed to let you experience as a player (including the environment itself).
I honestly have no idea how you can possibly correlate a person you say "ignores everything, spams the same key over and over again..." and that same person being the type that wants open action bars. This makes,... it doesn't... I can't..... It hurts.
I mean, I actually commented earlier about the wreck that WoW combat currently is, and the public admission by Blizzard that few people use more than 3 or 4 actions in combat because that's all they need. And how Blizzard understands that allowing the game to devolve to that state is a bad thing, and they have a roadmap to backtrack design to open up a reason to use more skills. WoW currently doesn't really need an open action bar system because most people wouldn't really use it most of the time anyway. And it's widely accepted as broken for this very reason.
For what it's worth I can find a correlation between a simple button mash combat system with little challenge and a lack of social interaction. You're right that I just see no logical way that you can correlate more skills at your disposal in a moment with that necessarily meaning that your constantly spamming skills, and/or the level of social interaction or lack thererof.
Feyshtey said:@Arazons - your assessment of EQ's decline is only partiy accurate. It was in fact dangerous (I wouldn't go so far as to say it was suicial) to try to mem a new spell, but only because it required you to sit and generate sit agro. It was very common and in fact often required for people to sit to try to get mana back during combat. The sit aspect was the danger, not the fact that you were changing spells. (And very early on because you had to look at your spellbook while swapping spells and couldn't see anything happening in combat around you.)
Never specified all the reasons why it declined. It was the "this is what i want" crowd forcing change after change, dumbing it down, negating interdependance on role specific group play that ultimately culminated in its demise.
Feyshtey said:But there were 10 hotkey bars each with 12 slots that were available for all things non-spell related from day 1. Usuable for every melee skill, every non-combat skill, every clicky effect, and many macros. You could swap those during combat if you really found a need to and do so without sitting, but there wasnt really a need to.
You clearly dont remember the original UI :P. But yea sure, the newer UI had that. My argument is not necessarily about limiting hotbars, its about limiting abilities available to use at any given time. There is a difference. In that regards Pantheon is intended to be more like EQ than any other modern MMO (Dont lump games like ESO in because it is a bad example as its more of action oriented game).
Feyshtey said:And the number of actions available to you had absolutely zero to do with the soloability of EQ. What changed that were completely unrelated. It was increases in spell power, AA's that made players more resiliant and with greater damage avoidance, with increasing stat caps, with mass group buffs, with intruduction of mercenaries, and on and on. The configuration and functionality of the UI didn't really change in terms of spell slots or hotkeys.
Again, didnt state that the number of actions available had anything to do with the demise, it was the pressure from a vocal minority who wanted QOL and simplified game experience with no challenge that ultimately ruined it. Which is exactly what I am witnessing on this forum, before the game is even out. When you force their hand on their own design decisions you open the door to change it all.
Shadowbound said:Has anyone seen Asmongold playing Dark Souls? Just take a look on YouTube, it's so painful to see how WoW has made him literally incapable of playing any other game that forces you to actually think about your actions, rather than mindlessly mashing an 'I win' button. He is the kind of guy that wants open action bars. Just watch him playing the game, he literally ignores everything, spams the same key, over and over again, and the game subsequently wrecks him at every opportunity (rightfully so). His attention span is non-existent, he never consciously thinks about any of his actions, even after he dies repeatedly, and he misses pretty much everything the game is designed to let you experience as a player (including the environment itself).
He's currently going through his second RL meltdown after burning out on World of Warcraft (again), and you know why? Becuase his life is completely dedicated to that game, and the game is a total mess because of things such as open action bars, with everything available, all of the time. You think about nothing, you react by muscle memory, and you subsequently become nothing more than an automated button masher. Much of the newer MMO community plough through content like there's no tomorrow, they want everything available, all of the time, spamming buttons, not paying attention to the environment they're in, it's just more, more, more with zero interaction / socializing (unless you consider the toxic, verbal abuse as a form of social interaction, that is)... They obsess over damage meters, and are so toxic to each other, it's just painful to watch. The people they're grouped with just run and spam buttons too, hacking and slashing through waves of mobs, they rarely socialise because there's no downtime, they just group, spam buttons from the entrance, to the end of an instanced dungeon, and then disband the group, never to communicate again (for the most part).
I know those that want these bars open will find it incredibly odd to make a correlation between a game UI element, and social interation / behaviour, but there is truth in it.
If VR crumble to this pressure, those that are pushing them to deviate away from their original design goals will attack every other aspect of the game they disagree with like rabbid wolves, and they will not stop.
VR has the choice to not open the flood gates now.
Feel free to flame me, I've got plenty of marshmallows to toast.
When abilities have a resource cost and a cooldown ... they are, by definition, "not available, all of the time." When combat is designed to require players to thoughtfully manage the expenditure of said resources and cooldowns ... the thoughtless spamming and lack of attention you speak of should result in failure. When combat is designed around the idea of interdependence, resource management, and the effective application of abilities ... players are highly encouraged to communicate with one another. When your tank uses their rescue ability (that has a 10-minute cooldown) this is something that should be communicated to the group. When your healer uses their instant-cast big heal (that has a 10-minute cooldown) this is something that should be communicated to the group. When your wizard uses their massive nuke of destruction (that has a 10-minute cooldown) this is something that should be communicated to the group. In general, players should work as a group to keep track of all abilities that have longer cooldowns.
When the game is designed in such a way that combat is balanced around the idea of players having access to a broader toolkit, it creates more opportunities for people to communicate important information. It creates more opportunities for players to think about what abilities they cast, when they cast them, and why they cast them. Being able to process and retain this information during the heat of a moment should be considered a valuable skillset. Good players should be able to create and maintain a steady pipeline of critical information and then use that information to their advantage. Cooldowns, resource costs, long casting times, positioning, conditional logic, awareness of what temporary buffs a player has or potent debuffs that an enemy NPC has ... all of these things create a fluid mental picture of boundaries and potential of the larger group entity.
The type of combat that people in the anti-LAS crowd are advocating for is more focused on mental acuity than nimble fingers. Nobody here is asking for the stuff you are talking about. We want spontaneous critical thinking to emerge during combat. We want curveballs, sliders, spitballs, change-ups, fastballs, sinkers, cutters, forkballs, knuckleballs, and splitters. If baseball were a game where players knew what pitch was coming ahead of time it would fundamentally change how the game is played and in a very negative way. Do some research on what people have to say about the Houston Astros right now. They tarnished the integrity of baseball and it's going to take some time before the MLB can restore trust with the fans. The game just isn't the same when you know what's coming, or in the context of MMO combat, when the restrictions of the LAS ultimately govern encounter/world design. The ceiling for dynamic gameplay is artificially lowered as a result of the LAS. The type of combat (and communication that would result from it) that is discussed throughout the FAQ is quite literally bastardized by the LAS.
oneADseven said:We want curveballs, sliders, spitballs, change-ups, fastballs, sinkers, cutters, forkballs, knuckleballs, and splitters. If baseball were a game where players knew what pitch was coming ahead of time it would fundamentally change how the game is played and in a very negative way. Do some research on what people have to say about the Houston Astros right now. They tarnished the integrity of baseball and it's going to take some time before the MLB can restore trust with the fans.
Not to stray too far OT...
The real joke is that baseball never had integrity. Only some fake marketed veneer of one.
MLB, like all other so-called professional sports are nothing more than 100% for-profit entertainment businesses. They are not much removed from wrassling.
They have been totally engineered to generate profits. Always have been. You can liken MLB as a P2W game. The teams that pay the most (Yankees), win the most. Period. Been that way for 100 years.
oneADseven said:The type of combat that people in the anti-LAS crowd are advocating for is more focused on mental acuity than nimble fingers. Nobody here is asking for the stuff you are talking about. We want spontaneous critical thinking to emerge during combat. We want curveballs, sliders, spitballs, change-ups, fastballs, sinkers, cutters, forkballs, knuckleballs, and splitters. If baseball were a game where players knew what pitch was coming ahead of time it would fundamentally change how the game is played and in a very negative way. Do some research on what people have to say about the Houston Astros right now. They tarnished the integrity of baseball and it's going to take some time before the MLB can restore trust with the fans. The game just isn't the same when you know what's coming, or in the context of MMO combat, when the restrictions of the LAS ultimately govern encounter/world design. The ceiling for dynamic gameplay is artificially lowered as a result of the LAS. The type of combat (and communication that would result from it) that is discussed throughout the FAQ is quite literally bastardized by the LAS.
I just dont see how or why the dynamic nature of an encounter changes because you have more options at your fingertips, you still have those options so they should be factored in regardless. Its just that with LAS you better make sure the group is covering all bases when you go in to the fight and then make sure you communicate properly so the person with fear (as an example) on their bar is listening when you realise the "Dynamic Encounter" may be assisted by someone quickly dropping fear etc.
I love difficulty, and the difficulty is only raised by having the same encounter with LAS as opposed to having the same encounter with an unlimited bar. Make the encounter hard and have people deal with it.
And i apologise I am not able to see your PoV, I know you have tried to explain it on the thread, its just seems to be somthing that doesnt resonate to me.
All in all, i still think LAS with a delayed in combat spell swap (similar to EQ, sit and mem = greater danger) is great!
Also, maybe this point will resonate a bit better with people...
The rogue who wants to CC is going tohave to forfeit an ability spot to do it, because CC is BLOODY POWERFUL!! Dont go giving that up easily VR, We want powerful game changing abilities like CC, but you cant just have every man and their dog (possibly and aussie only saying, if so, it means everyone and anyone) able to chuck CC all over the place all the time, thats watered down gameplay in my opinion. Give up a prized ability spot to include an ability for a unique situation... but be careful what you give up, risk v reward, baby yeah :)
Edit: I know cooldowns can facilitate for the above rogue statement, but honestly, irrevelant of the cooldown, even just 1 single use of CC in a fight can be the tide changer in a tight battle. Dont make it a given that any class that has a CC can use it whenever to save every situation, thats not great in my opinion, too much safety.
oneADseven said:Shadowbound said:Has anyone seen Asmongold playing Dark Souls? Just take a look on YouTube, it's so painful to see how WoW has made him literally incapable of playing any other game that forces you to actually think about your actions, rather than mindlessly mashing an 'I win' button. He is the kind of guy that wants open action bars. Just watch him playing the game, he literally ignores everything, spams the same key, over and over again, and the game subsequently wrecks him at every opportunity (rightfully so). His attention span is non-existent, he never consciously thinks about any of his actions, even after he dies repeatedly, and he misses pretty much everything the game is designed to let you experience as a player (including the environment itself).
He's currently going through his second RL meltdown after burning out on World of Warcraft (again), and you know why? Becuase his life is completely dedicated to that game, and the game is a total mess because of things such as open action bars, with everything available, all of the time. You think about nothing, you react by muscle memory, and you subsequently become nothing more than an automated button masher. Much of the newer MMO community plough through content like there's no tomorrow, they want everything available, all of the time, spamming buttons, not paying attention to the environment they're in, it's just more, more, more with zero interaction / socializing (unless you consider the toxic, verbal abuse as a form of social interaction, that is)... They obsess over damage meters, and are so toxic to each other, it's just painful to watch. The people they're grouped with just run and spam buttons too, hacking and slashing through waves of mobs, they rarely socialise because there's no downtime, they just group, spam buttons from the entrance, to the end of an instanced dungeon, and then disband the group, never to communicate again (for the most part).
I know those that want these bars open will find it incredibly odd to make a correlation between a game UI element, and social interation / behaviour, but there is truth in it.
If VR crumble to this pressure, those that are pushing them to deviate away from their original design goals will attack every other aspect of the game they disagree with like rabbid wolves, and they will not stop.
VR has the choice to not open the flood gates now.
Feel free to flame me, I've got plenty of marshmallows to toast.
When abilities have a resource cost and a cooldown ... they are, by definition, "not available, all of the time." When combat is designed to require players to thoughtfully manage the expenditure of said resources and cooldowns ... the thoughtless spamming and lack of attention you speak of should result in failure. When combat is designed around the idea of interdependence, resource management, and the effective application of abilities ... players are highly encouraged to communicate with one another. When your tank uses their rescue ability (that has a 10-minute cooldown) this is something that should be communicated to the group. When your healer uses their instant-cast big heal (that has a 10-minute cooldown) this is something that should be communicated to the group. When your wizard uses their massive nuke of destruction (that has a 10-minute cooldown) this is something that should be communicated to the group. In general, players should work as a group to keep track of all abilities that have longer cooldowns.
When the game is designed in such a way that combat is balanced around the idea of players having access to a broader toolkit, it creates more opportunities for people to communicate important information. It creates more opportunities for players to think about what abilities they cast, when they cast them, and why they cast them. Being able to process and retain this information during the heat of a moment should be considered a valuable skillset. Good players should be able to create and maintain a steady pipeline of critical information and then use that information to their advantage. Cooldowns, resource costs, long casting times, positioning, conditional logic, awareness of what temporary buffs a player has or potent debuffs that an enemy NPC has ... all of these things create a fluid mental picture of boundaries and potential of the larger group entity.
The type of combat that people in the anti-LAS crowd are advocating for is more focused on mental acuity than nimble fingers. Nobody here is asking for the stuff you are talking about. We want spontaneous critical thinking to emerge during combat. We want curveballs, sliders, spitballs, change-ups, fastballs, sinkers, cutters, forkballs, knuckleballs, and splitters. If baseball were a game where players knew what pitch was coming ahead of time it would fundamentally change how the game is played and in a very negative way. Do some research on what people have to say about the Houston Astros right now. They tarnished the integrity of baseball and it's going to take some time before the MLB can restore trust with the fans. The game just isn't the same when you know what's coming, or in the context of MMO combat, when the restrictions of the LAS ultimately govern encounter/world design. The ceiling for dynamic gameplay is artificially lowered as a result of the LAS. The type of combat (and communication that would result from it) that is discussed throughout the FAQ is quite literally bastardized by the LAS.
MLB sucks, has since the strikes in the early 90's :P
Advocate away, I just hope they dont succumb to those demands. For every argument you guys make a counter argument can be formed to rebuttle it. At this point no-one here is going to convince the other side to change their mind. It's up to VR and there will be people happy with whatever decision they make and those that will be disappointed. There is really no middle ground here. A comprimise could be made to increase the number of active abilities but still limit it and people would still be disappointed on both sides. Lets let them finish the game before we start tearing it down.
arazons said:Advocate away, I just hope they dont succumb to those demands. For every argument you guys make a counter argument can be formed to rebuttle it. At this point no-one here is going to convince the other side to change their mind. It's up to VR and there will be people happy with whatever decision they make and those that will be disappointed. There is really no middle ground here. A comprimise could be made to increase the number of active abilities but still limit it and people would still be disappointed on both sides. Lets let them finish the game before we start tearing it down.
So far the only supportive 'arguments' for pro-LAS have been straw man or logical fallacies.
A true middle ground would probably be something like 2 hotbars, with 12 unrestricted slots each - that lock during combat. This keeps the clutter down for people that don't know how to manage UI's properly, makes people feel secure in knowing the hotbar is indeed locked, and finally adding some actual flexibility (and personal skill) to classes by having space for options (24 of them) at their disposal.
Hokanu said:I love difficulty, and the difficulty is only raised by having the same encounter with LAS as opposed to having the same encounter with an unlimited bar. Make the encounter hard and have people deal with it.
I love difficulty as well! One of the main points I have been trying to convey is that we wouldn't be dealing with the "same encounters." The LAS restrictions are not exclusive to players. They also affect NPC's. If the LAS restriction is removed from players then encounters would need to have more HP, more abilities, more stats, more resists, etc. Encounter complexity as a whole would only go up.
arazons said:Advocate away, I just hope they dont succumb to those demands. For every argument you guys make a counter argument can be formed to rebuttle it. At this point no-one here is going to convince the other side to change their mind. It's up to VR and there will be people happy with whatever decision they make and those that will be disappointed. There is really no middle ground here. A comprimise could be made to increase the number of active abilities but still limit it and people would still be disappointed on both sides. Lets let them finish the game before we start tearing it down.
Advocating for something isn't the same thing as demanding something, nor is it an attempt to tear something down. We should be able to have an open dialogue on this community development forum without worrying that the sky is going to fall as a result. There was always going to come a time where the finer details would come up for discussion and that is something we should be embracing. Brad shared some high-level thinking and general philosophy with us on this topic several years ago.
Aradune said:I can reveal what we are generally trying to accomplish and the vision and thinking behind it, but it's too early to set number of slots or anything else in stone, specifics and the like.
Fundamentally, what we're shooting for here is needing to plan for that next encounter, especially significant encounters (boss mobs and the like). There should be a noticeable reward for prepping for an encounter properly vs. just running into combat without any forethought or tactics.
There ideally shouldn't be a set of abilities that is always optimal. It should change depending on where you are and what you are going up against.
We don't want it to be so key that you are messing with your character's configuration all of the time (needlessly tedious). Also any type of reconfiguration of your character, or anything really that you may end up doing relatively frequently needs to be supported by an intuitive and easy to use UI and interface. But on the opposite extreme we do want people to learn about encounters, figure out tactics, etc. again the more so the more significant the mob. As you learn a dungeon and master its significant or special encounters a big part of that process should be learning what kind of defensive and offensive capabilities these mobs have. Also, their disposition and behaviors. Running in blind or with minimal planning should put you at a disadvantage vs. the party that *did* plan.
Of course, this extends beyond spells that you mem. Situational gear should play a part as well. Relics and artifacts should play an important role in the big fights. Your group composition and how you work with others and not just individually should matter too. The buffs you apply to yourself and party should matter. Group positioning (both initial positioning and then re-positioning either based on a plan or in reaction to something the mob did or is about to do), depending on class, DPS, ability to tank or off-tank, etc. should be very important. What we're trying to implement and reward are real tactics that give you an advantage over the party who just rushes in blindly with little to no thoughtful preparation. In MMOs your characters abilities, items, etc. generally matter a lot. Then comes buffs. Then eventually actual tactics.
I personally don't see one necessarily always being more important than the other. Certainly, the items you are using, how you are buffed, etc. should matter a *lot*. Pantheon will always be an item-centric and 'ability important' game. But that by no means is a scenario where, at any given level, there's one optimal configuration and as long as you adhere to it, you'll be in good shape. Items, stats, buffs, etc. will always be extremely important. Having that optimal configuration vary depending on who you are, where you are, who you are with, etc. is very important to us -- no 'one size fits all'.
But then there's actually how you play the game once you start the encounter battle. The last thing we want is just button mashing... auto-attack and rescue if you're a tank. Hold back and then mana dump a bunch of damage spells at the right time if you're a caster.... All of this is fine to a degree, but I think it's devolved over time and the optimal use of tactics once in the battle seems to have had less and less importance over the years. It's hard to see all of this in a text description of it, or by watching a twitch stream, but a lot of it is there already, at least the genesis of it. Ideally as these systems mature and as we get more people into the game, we'll figure out clear and obvious ways to communicate that to the viewer. Especially the younger gamer who many not have ever experienced this style of MMO combat done right. Somehow we need to convey this visually -- we need to make it apparent in a video or stream that our combat is not brainless button mashing -- unfortunately, unless your combat system is all action-oriented (say, for example, Destiny) people who've never experienced such a system watch the video and conclude (wrongly) that the combat is simplistic or brainless. Quite the opposite is true, of course. In fact I'd say that both the preparation and execution of combat, both doing what you were planning as well as responding to your allies *and* your enemies decisions creates a situation that is much more complex and involved than what we've often seen as of late. Our intent is to take the 'tab targeting' combat system rarely seen anymore and to turn it up to 11, so to speak. You need to be paying attention. You need to have counterspells and defensive reactions and you need to use them at the optimal times. As mentioned, you need to correctly prep for the next encounter and then execute upon your plan during that encounter. What we're assembling here is about as far away from, and as different and distinct from, the excessively frequent and mindless button mashing and triple jumping all over the map in an MMO as you can get.
I'd also like to see Mana and other resource management mean more in Pantheon than what we've experienced in recent times. I remember in MUDs and MMOs I used to play that this resource management was very important. Some systems made you take up a slot with the spell/ability you were memming. Sometimes you'd mem both your best healing spell (just as an example) but you'd also fill up a slot with a lesser powerful healing spell as well. Why? Because often times it wasn't simply true that using your latest and greatest spell was always the best strategy. Sometimes it was more mana efficient to use your lesser heals and you'd hold back and only use your latest and greatest when the situation truly called for it.
I understand, appreciate, and support the concept of strategic planning. As outlined in that entry, there are a variety of ways to accomplish that goal outside of the LAS, and one way isn't necessarily more important than the others. When it comes to execution, he mentioned that he doesn't want it to be brainless button mashing. He mentioned how the optimal use of tactics once in the battle seems to have had less and less importance over the years. He purposely paired preparation and execution together and highlighted how the need to respond to your allies/enemies decisions creates a situation that is much more complex and involved. He mentions counterspells and defensive reactions and the need to use them at optimal times. He mentioned that he would like to see mana and other kinds of resource management to mean more in Pantheon than what we typically see in other MMO's. When we consider the argument that people have been making throughout this thread, there is a very strong correlation to all of that.
One of the more interesting observations I have had recently is that the people who are asking for an evolution to the old school style of slow-paced combat aren't limited to "new gamers" that haven't had the opportunity to experience EQ combat. Many of the players participating in this thread did experience that type of combat and are trying to explain how they think it could be improved. For starters, I think it's important to recognize the "compromise" that was offered in EQ which does not exist in Pantheon. That compromise was the ability for players to swap out abilities during combat -- it required sitting which had threat implications, but it still allowed some degree of adaptation after combat started. Something like that cannot be taken for granted and when I think about the big picture, the disallowance of that ultimately diminishes our ability to execute a response to in-combat dynamicity.
I have read that blog entry from Brad multiple times and have tried to put the various pieces of the puzzle together in a way that makes sense to me. When we think about the high-level thinking and general philosophy behind combat, it's important to recognize the value of both preparation and execution. Hokanu brought up rogue mezz earlier -- that is a pretty good example because rogue mezz was showcased in previous streams. I vividly recall an explanation of how rogues would need to make a tactical decision whenever they use (not the same thing as prepare) mezz. Since this ability has a cooldown, and resource cost, using mezz means that you're using a resource that could otherwise be spent on something else, and also means that it won't be available again for a period of time. There is absolutely risk/reward in this situation. The application of rogue mezz is not "free" or "thoughtless."
When I try to connect all of the dots here I repeatedly come to the same conclusion. The LAS reduces the potential for execution-based gameplay. Yes, it does add value to the preparation phase, but that aspect already has a commanding lead in this pairing. There are a variety of ways to emphasize strategy and planning but when it comes to execution (this can extend way beyond counter spells and defensive reactions), the LAS literally serves as a limitation to the potential scope of what can be realized. Why can't tanking as a warrior be a thing where I'm responsible for managing multiple rescues, defensive reactions, peel abilities, threat modifiers, banners, battle formations, battle cries, debuffs, gap closers, and physical attacks ... during combat? Why does it have to be a matter of needing to proactively plan which X of those abilities are ideal for a given fight before engaging, and without having the option to adapt once combat starts? Why not make it so that content is more intense, with more mechanics that require those sorts of abilities more often, and force players to find a way to navigate through all of that while being within the confines of limited resources and significantly longer cooldowns across the board? There is still plenty of trial and error to be had in this kind of combat environment which can lead to countless hours of strategic planning and refinement for how it can all be executed.
Several people in this thread are claiming that by having an LAS we will therefore have a limited and simplistic encounter design also, but have presented nothing to back up this claim except their opinion.
Whether the players have an LAS or not, encounters can still be designed with a huge array of options through multiple Dispositions, behaviours, NPC combat ability / spell usage, adds spawning and random differences etc
While the players maintain a limitation of 8 combat + 6 utility spells available.
It simply means the players won't have all options immediately available at all times in combat to counter what they encounter; they will have to deal with it with what they brought to the fight.
Therefore the same great variety of encounter design can be created, the players will simply be faced by more challenge and need more skill to overcome certain encounters rather than always having the matching spell or ability immediately available to react to anything a mob might do.
Someone also said that because players have LAS the mobs will also. Yet there has been nothing to suggest that NPCs will also be coded to have a limited set of only 8 combat abilities to match players.
For example: If there are separate spells to cure each of the 10 types of damage that will exist it doesn't mean that encounters will always be designed with only one damage type to cure because players only have 8 combat abilities; encounters can still be created with 2 or more damage types that must be cured, it simply makes the encounter even more challenging because of LAS.
In that scenario if you had all cures available on your 10 hotbars then it's not really difficult, you're just clicking each cure after the mobs use each damage type, the only thing to limit your ability to deal with it is the global cooldown; again it comes back to very simplistic design and gameplay 'push B now' 'push X now'. The only challenge there is finding the button on your UI.
Love how people are judging this hotbar, when it hasn't even been tested, for one we have already proven that sometimes having a simply, pretty east fighting mechanics can make diffculty games, simply by being limited, ever heard of Dark Souls, and yes you could say they aren't exactly comparable, but if you can make a game that all you can actually do, is either block/parry/AA/drink potions/or cast like 3 spells, can more than likely you wont even use all of those features due to how you are trying to create your character. and if you can make one of the hardest games over the past 15 years and have the fighting mechanics technically quite simply, i can say you can make a game difficult with LAS as well, in fact it has already happened.
you can come and say that UAS adds to difficulty, which is doesn't really, pushing buttons isn't hard, much like facerolling isn't hard, WoW in vanilla/im talking original not classic we are seeing today where it has 15 years of knowledge to simply breeze past it, most of that content was actually quite difficult, their weren't meta classes, a formula to make the prefect raid r anythig of the sort but the rotations were actually quite simply, and i can pretty say NONE of those classes used more than one hotbar worth of spells(not counting buffs/totems, which would be put into our utility bar anyway.) now have a nice day and stop complaining about somethign you havent even tested, until we can actually do some testing their is technically no way you can actually prove it can't work, only stating your personal opinion of which is better, which quite frankly i my opinion most communities don't really know what they want, and it's been proven throughoit the years of some companies trying to bend to their wished but they leave anyway.
I always looked at LAS in EQ as the space I have to remember things and my book was there to remind me how each thing worked when it wasn't being remembered currently.
A lot of the strategy was not only in what was on your bar at any given moment but also in how you arranged your book so you could get quick access to spells you might need at any given moement.
A poorly organized book would turn into an almost certanty to fail - due to time to find/load correct thing for the moment.
Then along came EQ2 with its billion button slots and I thought that was an awsome thing for awhile, but as it turned out it just filled my screen with a ton of things I rarely used and tended to make button rolling a thing instead of thinking so much about what you needed at that moment.
So I'm pretty ok with the LAS thing for pantheon as its a major component of what makes it more like EQ (yes I said that).
My only problem with it is if you cannot swap durring combat, even with great risk; you should be able to take a risk - not be prevented from taking the risk all together; at the same time you should be able to recover from a poorly populated spell bar; not be prevented from even attempting to recover from a poorly populated spell bar.
But we will see how it actually plays in the end.
-Az