Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Regen VS Instant heal

    • 1252 posts
    February 12, 2020 9:41 AM PST

    Aqua said:

    clerics dont have grp based healing spells what i know off and druids have one (what i understand) but it comes with damage that could be problematic with mezz

    druid aoe healing is a tree that people need to be around.  so if they move out the proximity of the tree = no healing

    for shamans it's a hot that ppl can run around afterwards, not to mention that hurry the past refreshes the hots of all party members.

     

    cleric does have a clear weakness in having difficulty in aoe healing.  also they must constantly cast with their combo healing mechanic(edit i think got this mixed up with paladin healing) so they don't hit the juicy ooc regen.

    they are good at clutch healing as a strength.

     

    druid probably will have the highest apm because the way the work functionally.  requires alot of multi targeting.  great at premitigating damage, but not very good at clutch healing or sustained healing.  they can have the option to dps or choose to ooc to regen.

     

    shamans well i'ver already discussed it.

     

    clear strengths and weaknessness that cater to each type of healing style.

     


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 12, 2020 11:29 AM PST
    • 586 posts
    February 12, 2020 9:43 AM PST
    strong abilities normaly have a longer cooldown yes. Its still very good, you just have to use it carefully. But we will see.

    If you hope to keep HoTs running and running with it im sure you cant. But extending mantle of the mist for 20 sec duration instead of 10 sec and all other running HoTs is still invaluable.
    • 1252 posts
    February 12, 2020 9:52 AM PST

    BamBam said: strong abilities normaly have a longer cooldown yes. Its still very good, you just have to use it carefully. But we will see. If you hope to keep HoTs running and running with it im sure you cant. But extending mantle of the mist for 20 sec duration instead of 10 sec and all other running HoTs is still invaluable.

     

    hurry that past is very weak if it's a 5 min cooldown.  that's a waste of las12.  i'm thinking it functions like wow druid swiftmend(i think initially it was a 5 sec cd but it was so good that they changed it to a 8 sec cd).  helps deal with spike damage.

     

    even if hurry that past is a 5 min cd, refreshing the mantle of mist even if it was 10 secs doesn't change the fact that it gets stronger the more it ticks.  so refresh the hot and boom it keeps going not to mention the fact that shaman haste mechanic makes it tick faster.

    healing 2k over 10 secs turns into healing 2k over 5 secs is stupidly good.

    no other healing class can do this btw.  priest and druid hot is a flat rate.


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 12, 2020 9:54 AM PST
    • 238 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:01 AM PST

    The cleric "aoe heal" that heals themselves and two other targets, has a 2 CP cost and a 10s cooldown (last we saw). Seeing how high AOE damage is in pantheon and now quick it comes, i have a serious worry about the clerics lack of aoe healing in their tool kit, becuase they may as well not have any. And casting single target heals to top up 6 people after an AOE is not viable (before the next AOE lands killing the group) due to the casting time and cooldown of the single target heals the cleric has I belive the last we saw was a 2.6s cast with a 3s cooldown (cooldown starting after the cast).

    However with the latest AA / talent point for skills I'm hoping when you max out arching luminance that it effects an additional target so it will heal the cleric and 3 others, this will actually give the cleric a fighting chance to heal in aoe situations.

    so as a cleric im rather jealous of the shaman and druid right now, as they actually have all the tools they need in their toolbox. If Dwarves could be shaman or druids id be eyeing one of those up at the moment, but im all about that dwarf.

    • 1897 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:05 AM PST

    stellarmind said:

    hurry that past is very weak if it's a 5 min cooldown.  that's a waste of las12.  i'm thinking it functions like wow druid swiftmend(i think initially it was a 5 sec cd but it was so good that they changed it to a 8 sec cd).  helps deal with spike damage.

    My suspicions with Hurry the Past is that it will have no less than a 24 second recast timer.  Our HoTs, apparently, run for 8 ticks with each tick taking 3 seconds.  So 24 seconds total.  Becuase HtP instantly completes then restarts the HoT,  with a 24 second recast timer you cannot just continually use HtP to keep any HoT active.

    As for what the maximum recast timer should be?  I'd go no longer than multiples of 24 seconds.  So 48 seconds or 72 seconds is reasonable.  If we assume that the average TTK on group level content is ~ 45 seconds (it does appear to be around that in the streams) then you can use it about once a fight and could be usable some point in the next fight.  Too long and it becomes a wasted slot, as mentioned above.  5 minutes is just a ridiculously long time though.

    • 141 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:11 AM PST

    Kellie said:

    The cleric "aoe heal" that heals themselves and two other targets, has a 2 CP cost and a 10s cooldown (last we saw). Seeing how high AOE damage is in pantheon and now quick it comes, i have a serious worry about the clerics lack of aoe healing in their tool kit, becuase they may as well not have any. And casting single target heals to top up 6 people after an AOE is not viable (before the next AOE lands killing the group) due to the casting time and cooldown of the single target heals the cleric has I belive the last we saw was a 2.6s cast with a 3s cooldown (cooldown starting after the cast).

    However with the latest AA / talent point for skills I'm hoping when you max out arching luminance that it effects an additional target so it will heal the cleric and 3 others, this will actually give the cleric a fighting chance to heal in aoe situations.

    so as a cleric im rather jealous of the shaman and druid right now, as they actually have all the tools they need in their toolbox. If Dwarves could be shaman or druids id be eyeing one of those up at the moment, but im all about that dwarf.

    yepp thats a problem for me to and that spell is kinda useless because it demands a undead enemy to even work (cant understand why a spell like that even is there)

    • 141 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:17 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    stellarmind said:

    hurry that past is very weak if it's a 5 min cooldown.  that's a waste of las12.  i'm thinking it functions like wow druid swiftmend(i think initially it was a 5 sec cd but it was so good that they changed it to a 8 sec cd).  helps deal with spike damage.

    My suspicions with Hurry the Past is that it will have no less than a 24 second recast timer.  Our HoTs, apparently, run for 8 ticks with each tick taking 3 seconds.  So 24 seconds total.  Becuase HtP instantly completes then restarts the HoT,  with a 24 second recast timer you cannot just continually use HtP to keep any HoT active.

    As for what the maximum recast timer should be?  I'd go no longer than multiples of 24 seconds.  So 48 seconds or 72 seconds is reasonable.  If we assume that the average TTK on group level content is ~ 45 seconds (it does appear to be around that in the streams) then you can use it about once a fight and could be usable some point in the next fight.  Too long and it becomes a wasted slot, as mentioned above.  5 minutes is just a ridiculously long time though.

    not sure the healing spell  even have a cooldown it might just need some speciall resource like opening of the gate then the we dont know how fast you can get the resourse going but i would guess when you heal the whole party due to a nasty aoe with grp base heals you might recast the spell very quick and it is in thoose situations you need it att most..

    • 238 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:21 AM PST

    Aqua said:

    yepp thats a problem for me to and that spell is kinda useless because it demands a undead enemy to even work (cant understand why a spell like that even is there)

    Arcing luminance does not need an undead target I think your confusing or mixing it with Eko's purifying bolt which deals damage to an undead target then heals the defensive target - curing poisons and diseases too.

    Arcing luminance just heals you and then two additional targets. :)

    • 141 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:22 AM PST

    Kellie said:

    Aqua said:

    yepp thats a problem for me to and that spell is kinda useless because it demands a undead enemy to even work (cant understand why a spell like that even is there)

    Arcing luminance does not need an undead target I think your confusing or mixing it with Eko's purifying bolt which deals damage to an undead target then heals the defensive target - curing poisons and diseases too.

    Arcing luminance just heals you and then two additional targets. :)

    yeah i saw sorry for the missinformation =(

    • 586 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:29 AM PST
    @Aqua i belive its a mistanke to balance the Shaman class by its debuff (atkspeed slow) if you need to slow down a mob to provide proper healing numbers then that debuff is mandatory, witch i personally find a little dull.

    I hope VR compair the healing numbers between the other Priests and find a balance. Then i also argu that HoTs have many down sides especially against burst of damage.
    With that in mind and what we have seen from the live streams i proclaim that i think and im afraid that Shamans will have issue to solo heal a grp. (witch non of us know yet).

    I suggested an idea to target the overhealing letdown that HoTs provide in a raid senario. Because i know from experiance that it can be another letdown, and with minmax mentality of 2020 i can see a cenario where Shamans will be few and clerics many duo to simple math of who provide the best and most consistant numbers.

    Im glad you all want to discuss this issue, fired up or not. Lets keep the good vibes eventhough we might not agree.

    • 586 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:38 AM PST
    @Stella & Vand i Agree that HtP will be a strong and fun ability and I also hope we see a lower cooldown 60-90 sec. So it can be worth a slot and used in our healing rotation.
    • 1252 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:44 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    My suspicions with Hurry the Past is that it will have no less than a 24 second recast timer.  Our HoTs, apparently, run for 8 ticks with each tick taking 3 seconds.  So 24 seconds total.  Becuase HtP instantly completes then restarts the HoT,  with a 24 second recast timer you cannot just continually use HtP to keep any HoT active.

    As for what the maximum recast timer should be?  I'd go no longer than multiples of 24 seconds.  So 48 seconds or 72 seconds is reasonable.  If we assume that the average TTK on group level content is ~ 45 seconds (it does appear to be around that in the streams) then you can use it about once a fight and could be usable some point in the next fight.  Too long and it becomes a wasted slot, as mentioned above.  5 minutes is just a ridiculously long time though.

    this is all personal interpetation so i'm not sure if it functions like this.  say i cast mom that runs for 24 secs and i recast mom right at the last 3 secs of the tick.  i'm thinking that it would refresh the tick, but still maintain it's growing strength.  mom could have a 3 sec cooldown on it.

    hmmm i would say htp should be no longer than 9 secs cd(working that this is instant cast oh **** heal high mana cost).  if i had to operate that it is longer than 24 sec cd...  man i couldn't see why i would take htp if it was that long as the benefit just wouldn't be worth taking up the las12.  i might be better off downranking a hand of aevilu and buffer casting it.  maybe like a multiple of 3 sooo.... 30 secs(if i must have it longer than 24 secs)?

    outside of mom, the maintainence heal would be the hand aivleau.  there is the gate of forgotten eras, but that's assuming my party knows to run through it >.>

    imagining the an optimal healing las12 flowchart for shaman would be like...

    mom - not sustaining cast gift of rainlands

    still not sustaining?  spam cast hand of aevilu

    spike in damage?  htp

    i'm also not sure how much haste shamans get from their mechanic, so i'll work with 24 secs, 8 ticks at 3 sec intervals.  at 50% vision(i think that's what it's called), 18 secs shaman, 8 ticks, 2 sec intervals.  at 100% vision 12 secs 8 ticks, 1 sec intervals...  

     

    i should note that i think the htp should be a shorter cd than the total time of the hot, otherwise it wouldn't feel good to use or to even have on my bar.


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 12, 2020 10:55 AM PST
    • 586 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:44 AM PST
    @Aqua Clerics will get grp heals also that is for sure. It will cost a lot of mana though and maybe decent a cooldown on it aswell. So far we only seen some abilities
    • 141 posts
    February 12, 2020 10:54 AM PST

    Well it might sound dull to be a cleric because you are a glorified heal bot that everyone thinks is op...

    because i cant do anything other then grp content i might be able to solo some low level undeads but due to lack of snare/kite/movment debuff/pet mechanic i hardly seen that likly.

    because of that the groups se a cleric and they say yeah you heal 90% buff 10% and if you start doing anything else you are wasting mana and of couse we are relegated to sit and meditate every second betwin that..that might be dull 

    also vr have stated time and time again every healer will be doable in heals i would say the clerics have like very little going for them beside heal/buff/meditate

    plz see what you can do not what you cant do.

    otherwise yeah kinda fired upp but i am still not angry so dont see it the wrong way i like a controlled discussion

     

    more powers to clerics (saveclericsnow@beforeextincion.com)

    best regard aqua

    • 1252 posts
    February 12, 2020 11:03 AM PST

    Aqua said:

    Well it might sound dull to be a cleric because you are a glorified heal bot that everyone thinks is op...

    because i cant do anything other then grp content i might be able to solo some low level undeads but due to lack of snare/kite/movment debuff/pet mechanic i hardly seen that likly.

    because of that the groups se a cleric and they say yeah you heal 90% buff 10% and if you start doing anything else you are wasting mana and of couse we are relegated to sit and meditate every second betwin that..that might be dull 

    also vr have stated time and time again every healer will be doable in heals i would say the clerics have like very little going for them beside heal/buff/meditate

    plz see what you can do not what you cant do.

    otherwise yeah kinda fired upp but i am still not angry so dont see it the wrong way i like a controlled discussion

     

    more powers to clerics (saveclericsnow@beforeextincion.com)

    best regard aqua

    i think clerics have more at their disposal to clutch healing than other healers.  with burst of life, celestial light and vigilance, they'll really shine when those moments come up.  not to mention the crazy damage reduction buffs they have.

    the weakness clerics will have is in sustained prolonged fights. i should note also that cleric hot can only be on 1 target, whereas shaman hot doesn't seem to have a restriction.


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 12, 2020 11:06 AM PST
    • 141 posts
    February 12, 2020 11:09 AM PST

    stellarmind said:

    Aqua said:

    Well it might sound dull to be a cleric because you are a glorified heal bot that everyone thinks is op...

    because i cant do anything other then grp content i might be able to solo some low level undeads but due to lack of snare/kite/movment debuff/pet mechanic i hardly seen that likly.

    because of that the groups se a cleric and they say yeah you heal 90% buff 10% and if you start doing anything else you are wasting mana and of couse we are relegated to sit and meditate every second betwin that..that might be dull 

    also vr have stated time and time again every healer will be doable in heals i would say the clerics have like very little going for them beside heal/buff/meditate

    plz see what you can do not what you cant do.

    otherwise yeah kinda fired upp but i am still not angry so dont see it the wrong way i like a controlled discussion

     

    more powers to clerics (saveclericsnow@beforeextincion.com)

    best regard aqua

    i think clerics have more at their disposal to clutch healing than other healers.  with burst of life, celestial light and vigilance, they'll really shine when those moments come up.  not to mention the crazy damage reduction buffs they have.

    the weakness clerics will have is in sustained prolonged fights.

    yes thats corect 100% that is what they can do nothing more but some situational stuff attleast it will be very easy to choose what 12 abilitys you have upp like 3-4 buffs 1 rez if you want. the rest healing =)

    • 1252 posts
    February 12, 2020 11:20 AM PST

    Aqua said:

    stellarmind said:

    Aqua said:

    Well it might sound dull to be a cleric because you are a glorified heal bot that everyone thinks is op...

    because i cant do anything other then grp content i might be able to solo some low level undeads but due to lack of snare/kite/movment debuff/pet mechanic i hardly seen that likly.

    because of that the groups se a cleric and they say yeah you heal 90% buff 10% and if you start doing anything else you are wasting mana and of couse we are relegated to sit and meditate every second betwin that..that might be dull 

    also vr have stated time and time again every healer will be doable in heals i would say the clerics have like very little going for them beside heal/buff/meditate

    plz see what you can do not what you cant do.

    otherwise yeah kinda fired upp but i am still not angry so dont see it the wrong way i like a controlled discussion

     

    more powers to clerics (saveclericsnow@beforeextincion.com)

    best regard aqua

    i think clerics have more at their disposal to clutch healing than other healers.  with burst of life, celestial light and vigilance, they'll really shine when those moments come up.  not to mention the crazy damage reduction buffs they have.

    the weakness clerics will have is in sustained prolonged fights.

    yes thats corect 100% that is what they can do nothing more but some situational stuff attleast it will be very easy to choose what 12 abilitys you have upp like 3-4 buffs 1 rez if you want. the rest healing =)

     

    yea i agree.  the advantage is though, out of the healers, clerics have the most flexibility with healing.  there's more options when it comes to just setting up a pure healing las12.  if buff and debuff management is something desireable, pick up shaman.  if doing dps on the side is desirable then druid.  since paladins aren't considered a 'main healer' (although i think one can gear and setup las12 for it) i won't include them in teh conversation XD

    • 586 posts
    February 12, 2020 11:22 AM PST
    Rebuke
    You release a torrent of celestial power into your enemy, inflicting Divine damage. This ability will cause Divine damage over time against Undeath.

    Determined Strike
    You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom

    Seems prirty good Divine damage is pure damage as far as I can tell. But agree meditation can be a needed often.

    Edict of Stillness
    You pacify your enemy’s will for a short time, making them unresponsive to activity happening around them unless directly engaged.

    Signet of Refreshing
    A powerful signet that improves the accumulation of your group’s unique combat resources for a short time.

    I think Clerics has many interesting abilities, im no Holyman though, the class Lore dont appeal to me the slightest, and also to few races available.
    • 1252 posts
    February 12, 2020 11:33 AM PST

    BamBam said:But agree meditation can be a needed often.

     

    something shaman's don't have to worry about as much cuz they always have ooc regen cough cough.


    This post was edited by stellarmind at February 12, 2020 11:34 AM PST
    • 141 posts
    February 12, 2020 11:38 AM PST

    BamBam said: Rebuke You release a torrent of celestial power into your enemy, inflicting Divine damage. This ability will cause Divine damage over time against Undeath. Determined Strike You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom Seems prirty good Divine damage is pure damage as far as I can tell. But agree meditation can be a needed often. Edict of Stillness You pacify your enemy’s will for a short time, making them unresponsive to activity happening around them unless directly engaged. Signet of Refreshing A powerful signet that improves the accumulation of your group’s unique combat resources for a short time. I think Clerics has many interesting abilities, im no Holyman though, the class Lore dont appeal to me the slightest, and also to few races available.

    sorry but the undead series are a waste off mana because of the lack of controll like a mention no snare/kite/movment debuff/pet mechanics if you want to solo and no sane grp want a cleric who goes and try to be a mana waster and start playing dps class yeah we can meele perhaps somewhat lower damage then the shaman pet but sure we can hit stuff we even get some health for it (stupid passive thanks)

    yeah edict of stillness interesting ability only the most desperate grp will allow a healer to lull due to the risk we saw a shinning example when they went to halnir cave and the cleric tried to lull well he died and the grp followed so i will say the spell is dangerus and should be locked behind doors

    yes signet of refreshing sounds like a nice boost to clerics attleast they will have 1 grp based spell sadly we dont know how mutch it will effect the boost it says short duration and we dont know the mana cost so it might be a nice boost or a total flopp little hard to tell yet but yes i am optimistic about that...on the other hand shamans have a curse that lower the acumulation of mobs special resources =) and with a str and some atther atribute debuff on top off that =)


    This post was edited by Aqua at February 12, 2020 11:55 AM PST
    • 808 posts
    February 12, 2020 1:49 PM PST

    We haven't seen all of the abilities yet either...

    • 1897 posts
    February 12, 2020 3:16 PM PST

    Darch said:

    We haven't seen all of the abilities yet either...

    You are quite correct and it is very important to realize that what we've seen so far is not the complete picture it terms of eventual gameplay.  I'll place money that no combat mechanics are wholly set in stone, that itemization is only in its very intfancy, that spells have only seen rough balance passes.  So when a topic like this comes up, any thoughts about how the class will perform must take that into consideration.  For where I belive things stand right now, looking at what we've seen in the streams and knowing several Shaman mechanics like Vision and HtP among others are not yet implemented, the Shaman is not viable as the sole priest in a group facing level appropriate (even con) content.

    • 94 posts
    February 17, 2020 8:19 AM PST
    I think HoTs should stack, so long as it is from different casters (or a different spell from the same person). They should stack, but with diminishing returns and a cap on max healing per tick to prevent abuse. Without some stacking, a second HoT healer is basically useless, unlike a second direct healer.
    • 1252 posts
    February 17, 2020 9:51 AM PST

    Counterfleche said: I think HoTs should stack, so long as it is from different casters (or a different spell from the same person). They should stack, but with diminishing returns and a cap on max healing per tick to prevent abuse. Without some stacking, a second HoT healer is basically useless, unlike a second direct healer.

    could you define "stacking"?

    like shaman mom stacking or like shaman mom and cleric hot stacking?

    then again have 3 shamans stacking mom then all can refresh the stacked hot with one shaman casting htp would be insanely broken.(also can we refresh the duration by recasting the spell?  if that is the case then shamans being able to nonstop refresh the mom would become the most effective healer in long fights.)

    unique hots could work.

    that way, it is encouraged to have a diverse healers.

    eh i'd definitely limit the shaman's mom.  it's way too good if it can be stacked

    • 51 posts
    February 17, 2020 5:21 PM PST
    I feel confident that VR development team is fully aware of the nuances pertaining to HoT based Priest classes. I would also venture to say that I consider it HIGHLY likely that the various Shaman HoTs will indeed stack - given the wording of the spells on the class page.
    With skills like Hurry the Past refreshing ALL hots, (eluding to the Shaman's ability to stack multiple HoTs at once) - Shaman's will have burst direct heals in their tool kit, along with spells like Hand of Aivelu - a "moderate" direct heal too.
    Mantle of Mist

    Water Boon. A powerful ability that heals your ally over time, recovering up to X% more Health with each pulse the longer the effect lasts.

    Gift of the Rainlands

    Water Boon. You send forth a rush of restorative waters, healing each member of your group over time for X duration. If Mantle of Mist is active on the target, the healing pulses of this ability will critically heal.

    Hand of Aivelu

    Primal Oath: Water. Amplifies a Water Boon on an ally, creating a surge of healing waters that directly heals your target ally for a moderate amount and the members of your group for a small amount.

    Hurry the Past

    All healing over time abilities on you and your group members will instantly finish their durations, directly healing their target for the remaining amount. These abilities are then refreshed on their target as if they were just applied.

    I believe the Shaman's kit looks rather impressive - along with the ability to slow a target by X%  seems to me it would make the Shaman fully capable of solo healing a named target using melee abilities like Sundersmith shown in the December stream. Albeit - more timing and skill may be required on all parts of the group members, I think it seems capable. And, as stated before - we've not seen everything the classes have to offer - also the living codex upgrades to the abilities could play another huge role in later character development.

     


    This post was edited by ShaggNasty at February 17, 2020 5:27 PM PST