Counterfleche said:Suggestions to help HoT healers deal with burst damage/make overhealing something beneficial:
- HoTs tick twice as fast when HP is below 30% and three times as fast when below 10%
- HoT will heal target up to 20% immediately, then provide the rest as a HoT
- Lethal damage delt to a target with a HoT instead reduces target to 1% HP and the HoT expires. This generates an obvious visual and auditory effect
- Let multiple HoTs stack
- HoTs heal for a set value plus a percent of damage taken since the last tick, so if someone is taking high damage, they will get healed for more
- HoTs also apply damage reduction if under 30% HP
- Overhealing creates a reservoir of temporary HP
- Any overheating converts to a cool-down reduction buff (or damage buff or mana boost)
- All overhealed HP will return mana back to the caster
- Overhealing is applied to entire team
- Every overheal tick increases the chance of the recipient getting a critical hit
There are a couple good ideas there, I bolded the ones I like the most. As many have stated, everyone just wants each healer to be able to solo heal a standard exp group (especially while leveling). I would assume when pushing harder group content, the group composition will be varied.
I really don’t understand the concerns right now. As long the majority can’t play the game, these thoughts makes only headache! We are talking here again about baseless fears, that some classes are better than others.
How often has VR stated, that every class will be able solo heal a group?
How often has VR stated, that not every class will be perfect for each fight and thus every class have advantages and disadvantages over other classes?
None of us know, how it will be in the end. But I know, I prefer synergies between the classes. Especially to bring down a big mob!
Plus the fact, that some people will be handle a class better than others! How should VR prevent that? (A hint of sarcasm!)
I didn't read everything, as its a lot . ..
But, from what i gather, most of this thread is based upon experiences of other games. But what if Pantheon's system does work differently? Where you do need the slows and other type of crowd management and debuffs to be even remotely succesful? Sure, Heals over Time have the experience to overheal, but is that really going to apply to Pantheon? Or is it just an assumption? And if you overheal, does that really matter? When at the end of a fight, the tank and group are alive and the shaman has as much mana left over as a cleric would, does it really matter? It will just increase the joy of different playstyles if you ask me?
So yeah, maybe your concerns are valid, maybe they are not. Let's wait and find out?!
Baldur said:I would make the argument that the WoW community is irate because of the quality that has been produced under Activision. I don't think that is anger is unfounded or unjustified by any means. In terms of balancing, at the end of the day, it is the dev's job to provide and maintain a quality product. It is important to take in feedback from the community and get their input on systems, however, you have to be careful of just tuning into the vocal minority. As a developer, you have to be able to critically evaluate your own systems and then make the decision on that evaluation and the feedback you are getting. Sometimes you have to make the decision to completely ignore the demands from your community such as changes that would lead to a homogenization of classes. My point is that in WoWs case the community can't be blamed for the quality of the product being released because 1.Blizzard is off in their own little world just trying to get out of the current expansion 2. It is the dev's job to maintain balance and part of that comes to knowing when to listen to your community and when to ignore your community because sometimes the hardest part of developing is protecting players from themselves.
i'll defer the current state of wow to ya XD honestly i just follow the memes now and using it as a benchmark.
so much for the king serving the people.
Fragile said:Counterfleche said:Suggestions to help HoT healers deal with burst damage/make overhealing something beneficial:
- HoTs tick twice as fast when HP is below 30% and three times as fast when below 10%
- HoT will heal target up to 20% immediately, then provide the rest as a HoT
- Lethal damage delt to a target with a HoT instead reduces target to 1% HP and the HoT expires. This generates an obvious visual and auditory effect
- Let multiple HoTs stack
- HoTs heal for a set value plus a percent of damage taken since the last tick, so if someone is taking high damage, they will get healed for more
- HoTs also apply damage reduction if under 30% HP
- Overhealing creates a reservoir of temporary HP
- Any overheating converts to a cool-down reduction buff (or damage buff or mana boost)
- All overhealed HP will return mana back to the caster
- Overhealing is applied to entire team
- Every overheal tick increases the chance of the recipient getting a critical hit
There are a couple good ideas there, I bolded the ones I like the most. As many have stated, everyone just wants each healer to be able to solo heal a standard exp group (especially while leveling). I would assume when pushing harder group content, the group composition will be varied.
that... is imba compared to the other healer abilities. combining any one of those with the current list of hots will overload the kit. maybe an epic skill, but that becomes a one button wonder. god i could see the memes of las12 just loaded with one hot and a potato facerolling on the keyboard. literally stacking hots? just cast the ability 5 times and go watch a youtube video.
BamBam said: The problem Lies in direct heals and possibility to heal a grp solo in demanding content. I think most Shamans would rather be abel and disired as a healer and less of a debuffer. So when VR says that Shamans need lesser heals cus they can slow, we much rather have better heals and lesser slows, balance healers arou d healers and give them flaverfull class abilities like the slow but then tune it to be usefull instead of op.
Thanks Bambam. Totally agree, but some people only hear what they want to hear. OMG!!! We pledge to this game & now we are engaging on the forums with other pledgers and VR!! Somebody stop the press!
Your telling me that some people choose to engage in a game they support.?.?.? ( Total sarcasm )
Fragile said: Lol, ever heard of testing and balance? Stacks can have caps, numbers can be tweaked etc. These were just some interesting ideas, who knows how the class will play out with only what we have seen thus far.
shamans are going to be great sustained healers. that's suppose to be their gimmick. giving them more tools to be good is all situations is imba.
no other healer class has in combat super mana regen.
folding another emergency button into a hot when they have hurry the past plus mantle of mist with their haste bonus mechanic doesn't sound imba? why even use my las12 when the clear button would just have multiple downranks of the hot?
if i wanted to be a jack of all, play a cleric
if i wanted to play a buffer healer(great for bursty fights, but looks like it requires a bit more targeting manipulation) play a druid
if i wanted to heal for the lulz(spot healing) play a paladin
the point of class identity is to have pros and cons to differentiate healers from one another. if one healer is suppose to perform as good as another healer in any situation, why even have multiple healer classes?
sure i agree that numbers can be balanced and all, by why make things more complicated when it could be solved by simplification? complex things are much easier to break than simple things.
btw i'm playing devil's advocate here. i'm bored and just stirring up the pot and agree for the most part.
Water Boon. A powerful ability that heals your ally over time, recovering up to X% more Health with each pulse the longer the effect lasts.
All healing over time abilities on you and your group members will instantly finish their durations, directly healing their target for the remaining amount. These abilities are then refreshed on their target as if they were just applied.
Passive Ability. Because of the Shaman’s temporal freedom, their Health and Mana generation rates do not slow while in combat.
@ stellarmind Those of us that want to play shamans want to be viable healers even if it means our buff and debuffs get nerf. Because groups want as many dps as they can get. The days of having a main healer and secondary healer are over. Yes I can be wrong on that.
Clerics are not the jack of all trades. That would be the shaman. I'm going to copy & paste what BamBam said. Becuse this sums it all up.
BamBam said: The problem Lies in direct heals and possibility to heal a grp solo in demanding content. I think most Shamans would rather be able and disired as a healer and less of a debuffer. So when VR says that Shamans need lesser heals cus they can slow, we much rather have better heals and lesser slows, balance healers around healers and give them flaverfull class abilities like the slow but then tune it to be usefull instead of op.
Vander said:@ stellarmind Those of us that want to play shamans want to be viable healers even if it means our buff and debuffs get nerf. Because groups want as many dps as they can get. The days of having a main healer and secondary healer are over. Yes I can be wrong on that.
Clerics are not the jack of all trades. That would be the shaman.
I'd rather it be our buffs and debuffs which makes our heals viable rather than lose the broad utility of the Shaman. Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy if VR would remove the Shaman from the Priest archetype and put it into a support archetype ala EQ1. Eventually my Shaman was very capable of healing a group in any group level content and even strong enough to keep a group alive during raids that had AoEs. It was a great late bloomer class to be sure.
stellarmind said:...the point of class identity is to have pros and cons to differentiate healers from one another. if one healer is suppose to perform as good as another healer in any situation, why even have multiple healer classes?sure i agree that numbers can be balanced and all, by why make things more complicated when it could be solved by simplification? complex things are much easier to break than simple things.
btw i'm playing devil's advocate here. i'm bored and just stirring up the pot and agree for the most part...
The first part is, of course, absolutely correct.
As for complication, it can be good because it of course doesn't just lead to problems and confusion, but leads to more challenge and interest (and fun, for those that like that).
In LOTRO they make it very clear that they consider certain classes much more difficult than others to play and that they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. The Runemaster (if I remember correctly) had the potential of both a healer and a damage-doing mage, but it was very to play for either (relative to more 'standard' classes) and very difficult to switch between roles, even though you could, if skilled, during one fight.
I think a lot of people commenting here know the answers to their own questions really, but are just pointing out their concern for the potential for issues, which is fine as long as people don't get all over-serious about it.
Yes, more complex, interesting and challenging types of healing need more careful design. #TrustInPantheon (but, yeah, let's talk about this stuff - it's interesting to pass the time!)
Vander said:@ stellarmind Those of us that want to play shamans want to be viable healers even if it means our buff and debuffs get nerf. Because groups want as many dps as they can get. The days of having a main healer and secondary healer are over. Yes I can be wrong on that.
Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but if shamans landed their slows and debuffs they were able to heal a group fine in EQ1. Sometimes having a shaman meant you barely needed healing.
You don't have to have numerical parity with heals if other abilities mitigate damage (and do other things to make combat 'easier') you just have to adjust your tactics.
As others have suggested, surely if a shaman has healing parity *and* utility, no one will bother playing clerics but if they have reduced utility to justify healing parity then they pretty much *are* a cleric, so what's the point?
Vander said:The days of having a main healer and secondary healer are over.
Who say's that? That's like: Just because it used to be...
Stop comparing with other/older games.
Learn something new! Start thinking out of the box.
Give Pantheon a chance. Be patient and #Trust in Pantheon!
I'm okay with debating. I'm okay with people not agreeing with me.Most of you have carried yourself in a respectful matter. However the haters that like to drop stupid smart remarks and run away are starting to infest this discussion. So before I get myself in troulbe with Kilsin. I'm going to bail from this discussion. Have a good one. I'm out.
disposalist said:
Yes, more complex, interesting and challenging types of healing need more careful design. #TrustInPantheon (but, yeah, let's talk about this stuff - it's interesting to pass the time!)
eyyyyy now ya got me XD
okay so to make sure my interpetation of shaman healing is correct:
assume that mantle of the mist heals for 1k over 20 secs
it gains power per each tick, meaning after 1 sec, it heals for 1,010. then 1,020, 1,030, etc.
after 10 secs it now heals for 1,100.
if i smash hurry the past, it instantly heals for 1,100 then refreshes the hot.
and so it ticks for 2k now. after another 10 secs if i hit hurry the past again, it now heals for 2.1k now.
that's insanely good and interesting way to heal. sure it means that i have to 'wind up', but at that point i become way more efficient at healing vs a druid(good at premigitation) or priest(good at emergency flash point recover)
they have buffs and debuffs to cover the initial weak point.
now i don't know if there's a cap on how strong the mantle of the mist can get, but the way i see it, it can grow to a 5k tick over 20 secs.
that's not including the shaman mechanic of haste kicking in either.
and if i was to get creative with the it, i put out mulitple rank 1 mist on off targets to a point where it grows to a 2k tick. i could potentially have a 5k tick over 10 secs.
i don't know but that sounds pretty good to me. it's not like tanks and other classes and cc can't cover for the drawback for shamans. isn't that what everyone wants? more class interdependency?
and bam bam what i understand you belive overhealing is a problem and just waist of mana well of course shamans will overheal they have some grp heals one in hot format and one in direct heal !
that will mean that in many situation where your main tank is the only one benifittin from healing and make a extra layer on protection on the other 5 members is kinda strange and perhaps abit op
someone mention a mana refound off the spell thats ritch like you get 70-80% mana from some spells that overheal the other 5 members of the party wow now i want boundless and infinite mana to.
the point with a grp base healing is when things get not so great like a wrong pull then it is very handy to have healing automatic going for the whole party.
clerics dont have grp based healing spells what i know off and druids have one (what i understand) but it comes with damage that could be problematic with mezz
so a cleric must target indivuduals to make that awsome healing when multiple mobs gang upp thats kinda hard to choose like who to live and who to die..
And you cant be best on everything and all the talk about balance and divirsity this discussion went over that line who whould even play another healer...actually what i understand shaman is the most common one that will be playes att the start for now
oh shaman is usless he cant do great direct healing well guess he can do some really heavy heals even including direct healing line witch even is a grp heal ! oh man i very seldom get anoyed but this is one of thoose
Very sorry for the angry rant and heavy critisism but this thread is kinda worth it.