Broadly, I agree with the concerns in this thread. I think it's *really* important that all three healers are viable, even if they're functioning in different ways. Right now, shaman feels very underpowered when it comes to healing, and that leads to one of two situations: Either shamans are relegated to being second-class healers and can't really main heal most serious fights, OR shaman utility (slows, etc) ends up becoming so overpowered that shamans become required for that reason, and the other healers suffer as a result.
I think this is an area where the devs need to look at how other games (besides EverQuest) handled the problem - because other games *have* handled the problem successfully. Whether that's wards that directly block a percentage of damage from applying, or reactive heals that fire when someone is hit for more than a certain amount, or reverse damage shields that fire a small heal anytime the enemy is hit, or lifetap-style effects that damage the offensive target and heal the defensive target - there are plenty of options that can be explored. It doesn't have to all be HoTs - and indeed, it shouldn't. Ideally, every healing class should have a couple of different types of heals in their bag of tricks. Which ones they have and which ones they're best at can vary, of course - but that way they have the flexibility to be a main healer in every kind of fight, instead of only some of them.
Enchanter can slow also with
You graft an illusion into your enemy’s mind, overwhelming them with the sense of exhaustion. While active, your enemy’s Strength and Agility will be reduced by X and their Attack Speed will be reduced by Y%.
I don't want shamans to be underpower as a healer and only used for debuffing with their own version of reduce attack speed (slow )
Primal Bane: Fire. Amplifies a Fire Bane on your enemy, creating a dense cloud of black smoke that obscures their vision, slowing their attack speed by X% and making their melee attacks more likely to land as a Glancing Blow for Y duration.
Because this goes back to my fear of people not wanting a secondary healer in the group vs having another dps class in that spot.
I like a lot of the ideals Nephele talked about. I think all healer classes need to be viable in healing in all situations. I don't want to play the shaman from EQ that was only a secondary healer, but highly sought after only to slow mobs attack speed.
Really the main things that are worth concerns:
When I look at the healing classes, it looks like the Druid & Shaman go together and the Cleric can be by himself. Need more variety in streams to find out, perhaps the next one will show something different in terms of group make-up.
So specifically in the early days of EQ Shaman's and Druids couldn't really solo heal "hard" group content. Often times it needed to be much lower than their level or you'd take two healers along. This occured when you couldn't find a cleric, because the cleric was the better healer in every situation. As EQ progress both got to the point they could heal difficult group content but they both needed high level gear to solo heal hard content. I'm less worried about raid viability. Finding a niche for each class in a raid is alot easier when everyone can have a specific gimmick spell that is desired to be brought along, but in a 6 man min/max leveling group the gimmick spells usually aren't enough to justify bringing them over a cleric.
Every healer class will need a way to deal with burst damage. The community will min/max and if the Cleric's "down side" is higher mana consumption you're likely going to have an Enchanter already for CC so they'd offset that. Jack of all trade classes only work in less than optimal group make ups. Now I'm not saying only play these 6 classes or whatever, or only group with these 6 classes. If you like playing with non optimized groups for the challenge more power to you. The healers, tanks, or DPS shouldn't be designed in a way though that forces classes into the sub optimal groups because they can't fulfill their role.
We need more info but I do agree this is something that needs to be discussed.
I think the point has been well made on all sides. Something like a shaman has always been very different tactically to play and possibly more difficult skill-wise, but I've known many that were more powerful than clerics.
With a good cleric you feel like no damage done is ever a problem.
With a good shaman you feel like no damage ever gets done!
Beside that, I don't actually agree that all healers have to be equally powerful/capable at raw 'healing' (whatever that is). The class make up of a group should always be something that is deeply interdependant and there should be strengths to take advantages of and weaknesses to mitigate.
Perhaps a druid doesn't have the raw healing throughput of a cleric, but they enable a group to escape or reform in emergencies much better.
Perhaps a shaman doesn't have the raw healing throughput of a cleric, but they help a group to take on monsters that might ordinarily be too powerful for the group.
The same goes for tanks, dps, crowd control and utility. There doesn't have to be raw numbers parity with every similar archetype. Each can have pros and cons and players will learn to play to those advantages and disadvantages.
Sure, they shouldn't be like night and day so that in certain situations you *must* have a cleric/druid/shaman, but there should be significantly different group tactics with each.
I expect the same 'issues' with warrior/paladin/direlord, enchanter/bard/necromancer (I really hope necro is another CC capable class) and even with the different DPS classes. Different pros/cons = different cross-group dynamic = different player skills = interest and fun.
Disposalist has a good point. I think every healer class has to be able to heal a group, but also grouping with different healer classes should have impact on the playstyle of every class. If the shaman has haste, he increases the damage output of the group compared to the cleric. The group might have to put some more defensive effort into the fight though.
That is actually what i really liked about the EQ necro. While grouping, he was able to support the healer or CC in a small amount, and also regen mana of the group if necessary. But that was not useful in every group. This way, each group composition had a slightly different playstyle.
As a resto druid main in WoW I can honestly say that if healers are expected to hold their own number and skill balance is the key. Hot based healers (and shield based healers) can struggle with the ability to solo heal in periods of intense burst damage and they have little ability to recover the group unless they are granted access to direct healing skills, shields, extream HoT abilities, or a combination of the three.
I would also say that HoT based healers, in particular, are naturally more susceptible to overhealing. Even if you fully understand the fight and the timers within the fight, the act of preemptive healing, required by a heal over time style of gameplay, almost always tends to yield to more overhealing done than reactionary healing. This style of healing can also lead to more mana expenditure depending on number balancing, cast times, and combat duration. Now I will say that I don't think there is anything wrong with overhealing in general, it only becomes a major issue when your wasting mana more mana than you are able to regen, or when you are in a situation where you are hitting engages because of lack of DPS.
I would caution VR to carefully look at healing viability during their testing phases especially with the different mob dispositions and boss manifestations. Healing viability is something that is extremely important to me as a healing main. The lack of it in WoW at the moment is horrible and is honestly the main reason I have completely given up on gearing progression and raiding. I now dedicate most of my playtime to money farming and playing the AH, which is an extream decline from the type of content I prefer to participate in.
I am really looking forward to seeing how VR plans to handle this balance and am looking forward to being able to experience it in-game eventually. Honestly, if they can keep their healers viable in solo healing scenarios and raid healing scenarios then Pantheon will have seriously outclassed WoW with that simple move.
*I would also mention a couple of things regarding the shamans in Pantheon. 1. They have access to Hurry the Past which not only consumes their heal overtime to direct heal everyone affected but also replaces these HoT effects. 2. We don't know what ability modifications can be made to their healing spells, nor do we know if that is the extent of their healing spells (these classes insights were posted months ago and it is possible things have been added). 3. I am sure that there will be preferred healing/ tanking/ grouping comps to max strengths and minimize weaknesses. The shaman appears to pair great with the Direlords self-healing ability and the paladins healing ability. Whereas the cleric might pair well with the warrior or paladin as the direlord's self-healing could negate a direct heal ability. Likewise the druid may have a preferred tank/ grouping comp.
cleric is the jack of all
paladin is single target
druid is buffer healing
shaman is aoe healing
based on description anyways.
really can't jump to conclusions on something we can't actually test.
using wow wotlk as point of relation(disclaimer: this might also be irrevelant now)
hot healing was always more mana efficient per healing on my experiences(instant cast, low mana cost)
some thing to note, there was 2 types of mana regen in wow: in combat regen and non action regen.
if i'm constantly casting, the in combat regen would be something like 10mp5. if i didn't cast anything for 5 secs, then non action regen would kick in and be like 30mp5.
for mana management, just popping a hot on and sitting there for 5 secs was insanely good.
actual casting/precasting interrupted this.
naturally some classes are going to be better at healing different types of situations. that's the cost of having different types of healing styles. it just would need to be balanced(to the perception of the player)
Another thing to keep in mind is vision.
"Shamans gain Vision as a percentage of the effective healing they perform on themselves and their allies."
It sounds like only the actual healing done, will gain more vision, that will give Spell haste and improve the healing of The Shaman.
So its even more important to make sure your spells are actual healing, witch again can be an issue with HoTs.
BamBam said:Another thing to keep in mind is vision.
"Shamans gain Vision as a percentage of the effective healing they perform on themselves and their allies."
It sounds like only the actual healing done, will gain more vision, that will give Spell haste and improve the healing of The Shaman.
So it even more important to make sure your spells are actual healing, witch again can be an issue with HoTs.
eh it's worth the trade off if ya ask me. if the target isn't taking any effective healing, then it gains no haste, but if the healing goes through, the faster it ticks. so the hast kicks in when you need it.
BamBam said:Ye haste is normaly very potent for Hot healers, i just thought it was a little counterproductive. :)
hmm... i think of it like a super charger. it only sucks in compresses air equal to the engine's mechanical output.
so if i'm driving slow(low healing), it'll be low. if i'm driving hard(high healing), it'll be high.
stellarmind said:
cleric is the jack of all
paladin is single target
druid is buffer healing
shaman is aoe healing
based on description anyways.
really can't jump to conclusions on something we can't actually test.
using wow wotlk as point of relation(disclaimer: this might also be irrevelant now)
hot healing was always more mana efficient per healing on my experiences(instant cast, low mana cost)
some thing to note, there was 2 types of mana regen in wow: in combat regen and non action regen.
if i'm constantly casting, the in combat regen would be something like 10mp5. if i didn't cast anything for 5 secs, then non action regen would kick in and be like 30mp5.
for mana management, just popping a hot on and sitting there for 5 secs was insanely good.
actual casting/precasting interrupted this.
naturally some classes are going to be better at healing different types of situations. that's the cost of having different types of healing styles. it just would need to be balanced(to the perception of the player)
Pretty much this. It is way too early to jump to a conclusion for something that isn't available to test. It is fine to voice general concerns but let VR get to a place that they are ready to have these classes being tested before jumping to conclusions based on speculation.
I would clarify a couple of things though. The first being that the paladin is slated to be a tank/utility-based class not part of healing trinity. Their current listed heals are reflective of this and at best they appear as they could provide some supportive spot healing. There is nothing in the four healing spells that they have which indicates efficient solo/ sustained healing capabilities.
The second thing I would clarify is about how healing in WoW works currently vs how it use to work. It is correct that hot based healing has in the past been more mana efficient. This is one of the better ways to design hot based healing. However, after Cata hit things started to change in BFA (WoW's) current expansion mana efficiency is class-based vs niche-based. Druids which are the HoT flagship healers actually have higher mana costs than most of the other healers. They have no special mana regen mechanic like many of the other healers, though they do get 20 seconds of free casting with innervate every 2 minutes. They are extremely ineffective in the raiding environment due to these circumstances and quickly run OOM in comparison to the other healers. They do shine in 5 man's where fights aren't as long and there are opportunities to sit and eat, however, they are completely out in the cold when it comes to raiding due to poor mana management. little damage output, and lack of utility. Spirit has been removed and with it mana regen has been reduced to one base number. There is no longer a difference between mana regen out of combat vs mana regen in combat. The amount of static regen is also universal at max level with holy priests being the exception provided they talent into it.
As a result, I am interested to see how regen stats and mechanics will play out in Pantheon. I know that the enchanter will be able to provide regen buffs and rend mana from their target for the group. I know that there will be meditation mechanics. However, I also wonder if there will be items/stats that affect MP5 regen.
Baldur said:Pretty much this. It is way too early to jump to a conclusion for something that isn't available to test. It is fine to voice general concerns but let VR get to a place that they are ready to have these classes being tested before jumping to conclusions based on speculation.
I would clarify a couple of things though. The first being that the paladin is slated to be a tank/utility-based class not part of healing trinity. Their current listed heals are reflective of this and at best they appear as they could provide some supportive spot healing. There is nothing in the four healing spells that they have which indicates efficient solo/ sustained healing capabilities.
The second thing I would clarify is about how healing in WoW works currently vs how it use to work. It is correct that hot based healing has in the past been more mana efficient. This is one of the better ways to design hot based healing. However, after Cata hit things started to change in BFA (WoW's) current expansion mana efficiency is class-based vs niche-based. Druids which are the HoT flagship healers actually have higher mana costs than most of the other healers. They have no special mana regen mechanic like many of the other healers, though they do get 20 seconds of free casting with innervate every 2 minutes. They are extremely ineffective in the raiding environment due to these circumstances and quickly run OOM in comparison to the other healers. They do shine in 5 man's where fights aren't as long and there are opportunities to sit and eat, however, they are completely out in the cold when it comes to raiding due to poor mana management. little damage output, and lack of utility. Spirit has been removed and with it mana regen has been reduced to one base number. There is no longer a difference between mana regen out of combat vs mana regen in combat. The amount of static regen is also universal at max level with holy priests being the exception provided they talent into it.
As a result, I am interested to see how regen stats and mechanics will play out in Pantheon. I know that the enchanter will be able to provide regen buffs and rend mana from their target for the group. I know that there will be meditation mechanics. However, I also wonder if there will be items/stats that affect MP5 regen.
if they(vr) wanted to, they could build a class specific mechanic like the rogue or ranger in which if the class doesn't take any action, then they get a boost in (x) regen based on missing mana or something. that way i could maintain the streamline stats without breaking a certain class mechanic or style. wow hasn't had a good record of class balancing >.> can't really blame them since the community is super irate :o(no offense and i don't mean every person playing wow)
stellarmind said:
if they(vr) wanted to, they could build a class specific mechanic like the rogue or ranger in which if the class doesn't take any action, then they get a boost in (x) regen based on missing mana or something. that way i could maintain the streamline stats without breaking a certain class mechanic or style. wow hasn't had a good record of class balancing >.> can't really blame them since the community is super irate :o(no offense and i don't mean every person playing wow)
They could do something like that and it would be cool to see how that system would interact with the meditation mechanic. It's an interesting concept at the very lest and an option VR could choose to explore depending on how testing progress goes.
As for WoW... the Blizzard devs have been very removed from their community in terms of trying to perceive what their community wants and then delivering on that vision. Legion (the last expansion) was fairly good all things considered after WoD. Sure there were some grievances with certain systems but overall it was well-received by most of the community. Fast forward to BFA they ended up removing class set bonuses and class set design. They implemented an azurite system that was imbalanced to the point it required addons to provide adequate data regarding upgrade paths. The azurite ability themselves hardly come close to the dynamic gameplay that the set bonuses provided. The artifact weapon in the legion was replaced with a neck which was good due to the static nature of never changing it at. However, the weapon offered a unique talent tree depending on the class being played where the neck does not. The neck also has a worse grind associated with it vs the weapon in Legion. Then you have a 3-way balancing issue going on with raiding, mythic dungeons, and pvp because blizzard is trying to make mythic dungeons into an E-sport like an event.
Then the last patch was postponed and still released with SOOO many bugs on launch day some of which were game-breaking. Players were disconnecting and losing weekly limited items required for the new progression system. Players were getting banned for chest farming in the new zones because it was supposed to be a weekly limit of one per character but there was a bug allowing it to be farmed. The new AH implementation was bugging and players were losing tons of gold because the AH mailing system was bugged. The horrific vision system wasn't awarding loot like it was in beta and most people thought that it was just removed. This issue wasn't made known until about a week later and only because a YouTuber made a comment on their video and someone from quality assurance contacted them asking about it. Then to top this fiasco of a patch off they made the announcement that 8.3.5 was canceled and that development was focusing on the next expansion.
I would make the argument that the WoW community is irate because of the quality that has been produced under Activision. I don't think that is anger is unfounded or unjustified by any means. In terms of balancing, at the end of the day, it is the dev's job to provide and maintain a quality product. It is important to take in feedback from the community and get their input on systems, however, you have to be careful of just tuning into the vocal minority. As a developer, you have to be able to critically evaluate your own systems and then make the decision on that evaluation and the feedback you are getting. Sometimes you have to make the decision to completely ignore the demands from your community such as changes that would lead to a homogenization of classes. My point is that in WoWs case the community can't be blamed for the quality of the product being released because 1.Blizzard is off in their own little world just trying to get out of the current expansion 2. It is the dev's job to maintain balance and part of that comes to knowing when to listen to your community and when to ignore your community because sometimes the hardest part of developing is protecting players from themselves.
Counterfleche said: Suggestions to help HoT healers deal with burst damage/make overhealing something beneficial: • HoTs tick twice as fast when HP is below 30% and three times as fast when below 10% • HoT will heal target up to 20% immediately, then provide the rest as a HoT • Lethal damage delt to a target with a HoT instead reduces target to 1% HP and the HoT expires. This generates an obvious visual and auditory effect • Let multiple HoTs stack • HoTs heal for a set value plus a percent of damage taken since the last tick, so if someone is taking high damage, they will get healed for more • HoTs also apply damage reduction if under 30% HP • Overhealing creates a reservoir of temporary HP • Any overheating converts to a cool-down reduction buff (or damage buff or mana boost) • All overhealed HP will return mana back to the caster • Overhealing is applied to entire team • Every overheal tick increases the chance of the recipient getting a critical hit
Most of these sound like great ideas or things that could be incorporated into the ability modification system. I would, however, advise against lethal damage reducing the target to 1% hp if they have a hot, and hots providing a damage reduction. Those ideas sound more like they should be incorporated into two separate abilities one that is a defensive damage reduction which can be used on-demand and the other sounds like major defensive to prevent death in an extream single target burst situation.
I would also not recommend the excess healing be turned into mana gain as in the right situation this could trivialize mana expenditure.
I would also add it might be nice to see a modification made where a hot can jump to a new target for a reduced duration if it heals a target at full health. Or a modification where if a HoT heals someone below 60% hp it also applies another mini hot to the target to keep them stable. Druids in WoW get something like that latter and it can be a huge life savor in periods of heavy AOE damage by keeping people in a semi-stable condition.
Seems like a non-issue to me, this kind of thing isn't exactly rocket science to balance out to reach the desired outcome between healers.
Even with what limited information we have on class abilities we can see that shaman have some tools to handle burst damage:
Hand of Aivelu
Primal Oath: Water. Amplifies a Water Boon on an ally, creating a surge of healing waters that directly heals your target ally for a moderate amount and the members of your group for a small amount.
Hurry the Past
All healing over time abilities on you and your group members will instantly finish their durations, directly healing their target for the remaining amount. These abilities are then refreshed on their target as if they were just applied.Gate of Forgotten Eras
Ancestral Boon. You open an ancestral gateway around a member of your group. While this gateway is active, the group member is unable to move and all damage against them will be delayed for X seconds. When the gateway closes, the total damage will be dispersed evenly among your group. Only usable on yourself or a member of your group.
Iksar said:Seems like a non-issue to me, this kind of thing isn't exactly rocket science to balance out to reach the desired outcome between healers.
Even with what limited information we have on class abilities we can see that shaman have some tools to handle burst damage:
Hand of Aivelu
Primal Oath: Water. Amplifies a Water Boon on an ally, creating a surge of healing waters that directly heals your target ally for a moderate amount and the members of your group for a small amount.Hurry the Past
All healing over time abilities on you and your group members will instantly finish their durations, directly healing their target for the remaining amount. These abilities are then refreshed on their target as if they were just applied.Gate of Forgotten Eras
Ancestral Boon. You open an ancestral gateway around a member of your group. While this gateway is active, the group member is unable to move and all damage against them will be delayed for X seconds. When the gateway closes, the total damage will be dispersed evenly among your group. Only usable on yourself or a member of your group.
I do not want to have to cast "Gate of Forgotten Eras" on my tank making the tank "unable to move". I see many problems with this.
Hurry the Past is decent, but what is the cool down timer on that? ( I heard the CD on that was high )
As for " Hand of Aivelu" it is the only direct heal shamans get and it only heals for a moderate amount. While the Clerics get two HoT's and from the way I interpret what I read. Clerics get the best HoT in the game when they are primarily direct heals. * scratches head*
So with all due respect sir. I strongly disagree here when you say Shamans have many ways to deal with burst damage. Before people start screaming slows. What if you get a bad pull and you can't slow all the mobs because tank HP is going down fast and you have to focus on chain casting heals until the enchater can get the other mobs CC? Do you think that one direct heal with our HoT's are going to be enough to deal with the burst damage? I do not. I can give other scenarios but I don't want to over do it. I say again. I think it is with in reason to ask for another direct heal and / or ward or some other modifications other people have talked about in helping the Shaman.
Rabbit trail here. I got to give the Druids some attention here.
If you have ever played a healer you know that one the last things you ever want to have to do when you are already busy healing and keeping your group alive is to have to worry about positioning.
Druids get a heal that also damages so for them to use that heal if they ever use it they have to add more to their plate and worry about positioning before they cast it so as not to break any mobs that are mez.
You animate three tendrils of Verdanfire that lash around you wildly, damaging any enemy and healing any ally they touch. These tendrils grow longer and reach farther every second for the duration of the ability. You will be able to animate more than three tendrils based on your Wisdom, Intelligence and Constitution.
I say all that to come to this. Shamans and Druids need some work. So ther is balancing that needs to be done to bring them up to par with the cleric. Just my two cents. Let me know what you think. /Salute
cant se the point with this thread seriusly ?
shamans have the best hots shamans have the best debuffs shamans also have direct heals shamans also have the best natural mana regen
and now you want the same direct heals like the cleric it seems like you want to be totaly op ?
read about the other classes before posting like cleric have 0 debuffs clerics have 1 hot on a sigle target att one time and guess what clerics heals also cost mana !
and plz dont glare att the big heals that clerics have they cost often more then they give and is mostly reserved att emergensy play if you even have mana for it !
allso in consideration is what more shamans actually can do they can do some serius damage inderect with just haste and attribute enhancment spells heck shamans pet will probobly do more damage than the cleric...
so before posting all this whinning learn the class make a strategy and remember you cant be best in all the aspects and trust me shaman is very high in that regards.
and if you are worried about any healer is should be the druid in healing because the information is kinda thin.
Best regard Aqua