stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Community policing it self? No the community shouldn't be responsible for deciding what is acceptable in a game that isn't theirs it should be the devs and the GM'S that enforce the devs decision to make those for us, as the communtiy in theory is completely biased, as in one time one group could arguably steal your steal and the community accept it because they like part of that group, but than at another instance they turn on you because you tried to defend what you were camping simy because part of the communtiy didn't like you, as for this simply fact the community shouldn't have any deciding factors on what is acceptable and what isn't, their should be a written guideline and we'll known throughout the game and if it does happen the community it can than pitch in based on what is actually written and not off of biased opinion.
the community can police itself as long as there's enough tools for it to occur. it's fine to have emergent gameplay like fd training, ninja looting, ksing, etc. etc. AS LONG AS THERE IS PROPER RESPONSES IN PLACE. better put that in bold since someone is going to take it out of context.
also, how 'open world' does vr want pantheon to be? because emergent gameplay is a part of the open world experience.
You literally disagree with me and than agree with me, I said tey shoddy do it off of biased ooinion, I said it should be the GM's and devs decision and than written down somewhere, so the community could use it to state what is the correct way to go about it, with the devs stating what is actually acceptable their is no ifs or buts it simply is what it is, and the community can than use it to dictate what is correct. So yes in a way the community can tell you what is acceptable hut only after they were already told what it was or it simply be only by a biased opinion on why they think that way and not by what is actually accepted by the devs.
MDD facilitates: Zerging, power-leveling, kill-stealing, trivial loot code, and leapfrogging.
FTE facilitates: Leapfrogging.
If the only "high stakes" content is raid content that would be a tragic missed opportunity for Pantheon. The argument that FTE allows people to spam macros to win an engage has been debunked countless times. If the content is so easy and predictable that players don't have to prepare for it in any way, Pantheon will have already failed to deliver on many of its tenets. It isn't that farfetched of a concept to make it so NPC's are more than farmable loot pinatas.
stellarmind said:mdd (most damage done?)
fte (first to encounter?)
i mean isn't this all irrelevant if it's static loot(meaning anyone can loot it once dead)?
wat
Where did you get that idea?
Iksar said:Liav said:As long as we avoid really awful bottlenecks like VP keys, certain class epic spawns, etc. MDD will function just fine in 99% of content.
Having a degenerative open world raiding scene akin to P99, EQ TLP, etc. is unacceptable though in a modern game.
I'm quite happy to have FTE limited to high stakes content only. MDD/FTE is completely irrelevant in an xp camp, and the community is more than capable of policing that themselves.
Yeah I agree with this.
FTE breaks the world/community feel to me, small "instanced" combat encounters. Also people are more likely to snag mobs from under one another without thinking twice because if it ain't tagged then its fair game, never mind the player/group that was already clearing an area. Players hiding in spawn rooms ready to snag mobs/rares away from other groups and all sorts of other nonsense. Also if you don't have a ranged instant cast aggro spell then you can just enjoy your handicap. This is how you end up with multiple players sitting in rooms around the world all wasting time spamming target macros to be the first to tag. FTE is no cure all for rage inducing gameplay or toxic infighting, not by a long shot.
I understand where your coming from Iksar but I can say even with MDD I can still remember my camp being invaded by other groups way more of EQ than any other game or games I've played combined so the whole they snagged it while I was clearing camp doesn't exactly work here to me, this type of behavior won't be stopped the the simply introduction or either FTE or MDD this type of behavior will honest only ever get solved by the PNP, which might be something the devs should consider
oneADseven said:If the only "high stakes" content is raid content that would be a tragic missed opportunity for Pantheon. The argument that FTE allows people to spam macros to win an engage has been debunked countless times. If the content is so easy and predictable that players don't have to prepare for it in any way, Pantheon will have already failed to deliver on many of its tenets. It isn't that farfetched of a concept to make it so NPC's are more than farmable loot pinatas.
Well, I think it's perfectly fine if triggered quest NPCs are locked to the players that spawn them. I would consider that to be "high stakes" content worth making a concession for.
All I'm saying is that I think it would be bad if the entire game follows the same model, like EQ2 does with FTE. A hybrid model is the sensible approach.
It seems like that's what we're on track for and I'm happy about it.
Liav said:
Well, I think it's perfectly fine if triggered quest NPCs are locked to the players that spawn them. I would consider that to be "high stakes" content worth making a concession for.
All I'm saying is that I think it would be bad if the entire game follows the same model, like EQ2 does with FTE. A hybrid model is the sensible approach.
It seems like that's what we're on track for and I'm happy about it.
What exactly do you find to be sensible about it? Why does it make sense for 12 man and 24 man content to scale up when engaged by more than 12 or 24 players, but not single group content? Why does it make sense for raid content to be locked to the group that engages it, but not group content? Why is there a distinction between how group content and raid content is being handled? Zerging is okay for 6 man bosses but not 12 man bosses? Why? Kill-stealing is okay for 6 man bosses but not 12 man bosses? Why? Power-leveling is okay just because?
oneADseven said:What exactly do you find to be sensible about it? Why does it make sense for 12 man and 24 man content to scale up when engaged by more than 12 or 24 players, but not single group content? Why does it make sense for raid content to be locked to the group that engages it, but not group content? Why is there a distinction between how group content and raid content is being handled? Zerging is okay for 6 man bosses but not 12 man bosses? Why? Kill-stealing is okay for 6 man bosses but not 12 man bosses? Why?
I believe it is sensible to categorize content.
1 and 2 probably account for 90% of the killable content in the game. Content that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase can easily access on a whim.
Riahuf22 said:You literally disagree with me and than agree with me, I said tey shoddy do it off of biased ooinion, I said it should be the GM's and devs decision and than written down somewhere, so the community could use it to state what is the correct way to go about it, with the devs stating what is actually acceptable their is no ifs or buts it simply is what it is, and the community can than use it to dictate what is correct. So yes in a way the community can tell you what is acceptable hut only after they were already told what it was or it simply be only by a biased opinion on why they think that way and not by what is actually accepted by the devs.
eh i don't want to have a super long debate so i disagree that the community can police itself as long as it has the proper mechanics in place(pvp community has it's ways) then agree to save time(because pvers don't have a way to retaliate)XD
Liav said:stellarmind said:mdd (most damage done?)
fte (first to encounter?)
i mean isn't this all irrelevant if it's static loot(meaning anyone can loot it once dead)?
wat
Where did you get that idea?
that's how open world functions? anyone can loot anything regardless of who killed what(i'm not of eq eq2 or anything so i probably need some context). from what i understand is, we don't have soulbound items, master loot, roll to loot or anything that locks loot to one person or group. so anyone can trade anything(minus quest items?).
i should note that this is for 'static loot'.
stellarmind said:that's how open world functions? anyone can loot anything regardless of who killed what(i'm not of eq eq2 or anything so i probably need some context). from what i understand is, we don't have soulbound items, master loot, roll to loot or anything that locks loot to one person or group. so anyone can trade anything(minus quest items?).
i should note that this is for 'static loot'.
Corpses are always locked to the party that is awarded credit for the kill, along with experience and whatever else. MDD or FTE is what determines who the credit is awarded to.
Whether or not everything can be traded remains to be seen. I doubt things like epic quest pieces will be tradeable between players.
Liav said:stellarmind said:that's how open world functions? anyone can loot anything regardless of who killed what(i'm not of eq eq2 or anything so i probably need some context). from what i understand is, we don't have soulbound items, master loot, roll to loot or anything that locks loot to one person or group. so anyone can trade anything(minus quest items?).
i should note that this is for 'static loot'.
Corpses are always locked to the party that is awarded credit for the kill, along with experience and whatever else. MDD or FTE is what determines who the credit is awarded to.
Whether or not everything can be traded remains to be seen. I doubt things like epic quest pieces will be tradeable between players.
appreciate the context ^_^
mdd and fte is pretty outdated if ya ask me. loot by activity is much more attractive.
for example: a level 30 is spending 2 mins to get a mob down to 55% hp. a max level guy runs by and one shots it the rest of the way and gets the loot. gg bro.
fte: an archer tags the mob and trains all the goodie mobs. gg monopolized loot.
To elaborate a little more on what Liav said. The corpse lock would expire before the corpse itself vanished. This would leave a period of time that anyone could loot the corpse before it faded. It was a fair amount of time 2 or so minutes. I personally liked this system. It was rare that this was not enough time for a group to decide who gets the loot and if no one wanted it in the group another person could loot it later. Could be cool for pelts or other crafting items for example that the group might not want but someone else might.
starblight said:To elaborate a little more on what Liav said. The corpse lock would expire before the corpse itself vanished. This would leave a period of time that anyone could loot the corpse before it faded. It was a fair amount of time 2 or so minutes. I personally liked this system. It was rare that this was not enough time for a group to decide who gets the loot and if no one wanted it in the group another person could loot it later. Could be cool for pelts or other crafting items for example that the group might not want but someone else might.
And I hope that remains the way how corpses are handled.
starblight said:To elaborate a little more on what Liav said. The corpse lock would expire before the corpse itself vanished. This would leave a period of time that anyone could loot the corpse before it faded. It was a fair amount of time 2 or so minutes. I personally liked this system. It was rare that this was not enough time for a group to decide who gets the loot and if no one wanted it in the group another person could loot it later. Could be cool for pelts or other crafting items for example that the group might not want but someone else might.
so.... as a pvper... i could technically kill the entire group until 2 mins... then loot the corpse for myself?
So, when discussing MDD or FTE I am only looking at who gets exp and loot rights at least when talking about most content. I could see raids or special boss fights being different. But to be clear I would not want tagging a mob to prevent others outside my group form effecting the fight. They should be able to heal and do damage to the mob just not be able to get loot or exp for doing so.
I feel this is important so that interactions with other players can be positive. If a group accidently takes on more than they can handle another player or group can help out. Solving the other issues is not worth losing this community building aspect of a open world.
stellarmind said:starblight said:To elaborate a little more on what Liav said. The corpse lock would expire before the corpse itself vanished. This would leave a period of time that anyone could loot the corpse before it faded. It was a fair amount of time 2 or so minutes. I personally liked this system. It was rare that this was not enough time for a group to decide who gets the loot and if no one wanted it in the group another person could loot it later. Could be cool for pelts or other crafting items for example that the group might not want but someone else might.
so.... as a pvper... i could technically kill the entire group until 2 mins... then loot the corpse for myself?
This is a very good question. I am not a PVP player and so I am not sure how it worked in the past or in other games with similar methods of handling looting. I will note that in my experience if the loot was important enough it would be hard to kill someone before they could loot it. Things just take more time to die in EQ and I expect in Pantheon.
i'll throw in a 'something that could be considered' to solve some of pve woes
so in bdo, they have static loot locked via proximity(looting function differently here handled by pet and killing mobs is dynasty warrioresqe). so if i killed something and left the proximity, someone else can come loot it.
in a party, it would be who's pet could pick up faster.
(for context here)
bdo then developed areas in which loot would drop for multiple ppl maximum of 3(to encourage group content), but could only be looted once per unique party member(prevents funneling all the loot for one person).
because loot would be more valuable in pantheon(bdo loot is mostly for trash on rare occasions one might get gear), it would have to be similar to how bdo handles boss drops.
meaning there are two tables for a drop, one to the individual or group that has mdd, the other to the individual or group that has loot based on activity.
the problem with this in pantheon is that players will get creative and split the party into 2. in which case they get double loot. it could be addressed by a making all drops a chance, (that way killing a named, elite or rare spawn doesn't always garen tea a drop).
this does 2 things, it encourages a group to stay in full party to give maximum chance(could be 100%) of a drop while discouraging full on split groups.
it also encourages assistance from another party(but they'll get like a 25% chance of having something drop) without it being so good that 2 parties just ravage everything.
they could use some combination of fte mdd abl(activity based loot)
fte 25% increase chance, mdd 25% chance, abl 25% chance