dorotea said:
Pantheon can launch with some things missing. Races, classes, whole continents can be added after launch.
I would add to this list to include in-house designed art assets. Like trees, buildings, rocks, lampposts..etc, etc, etc. Unity has thousands upon thousands of very high quality art assets that could be purchase far cheaper than it would cost VR to pay someone to develop that art asset. All those things can be replaced as time goes on after the game is release. Think about it this way: A baker in Thronefast has his little shop, it's a Unity asset. It's nice, its functional, it fits with the general theme of Thronefast. Some time after release, the game is patched and when we next see the baker in his shop its a whole new building! The story behind it was he had made enough money to have new building, more ovens, bigger storage, etc. Same goes for pretty much any other asset out there.
If VR are spending time, and money, to develop in-house assets of things instead of procuring them at less cost and less time through Unity, then they are doing it wrong.
Fragile said:philo said:disposalist said:Not sure how many times the devs need to say that they are already funded through beyond releasing the complete game.
That was stated a couple years back on Facebook supposedly.
The quote from 2018 on Facebook was the following -- "Funding isn't a problem, no. We have a set pace and current funding has allowed us to build the game to this point and can be continued through to launch." -- I would like to point out that this was well before the entire year of 2019 was used on 'Project Faerthale'.
Going off of the Brad Q&A from Feb 2019 he said -- "we will also need further investment and/or support from publishers and investors which would allow us to accelerate." -- I don't think he or the team really saw the project still not being in PA5/Alpha by now, let alone nearly a year ago.
philo said:Money doesnt last indefinitely regardless of how long it takes. The longer it takes the more funding is required to pay people's salaries.
That's the main reason I am, as you said, optimistic for an amazing publisher to partner up and make this game a reality. Being indie is cool for street cred, but I think all of us would like to be playing this game sooner rather than never.
Nice "out of context" on that last half there Sparky...
What Brad SAID, in 2019, was that there was enough cash to finish the game and that extra investment would allow them to hire more people and FINISH FASTER.
Vandraad said:dorotea said:
Pantheon can launch with some things missing. Races, classes, whole continents can be added after launch.
I would add to this list to include in-house designed art assets. Like trees, buildings, rocks, lampposts..etc, etc, etc. Unity has thousands upon thousands of very high quality art assets that could be purchase far cheaper than it would cost VR to pay someone to develop that art asset. All those things can be replaced as time goes on after the game is release. Think about it this way: A baker in Thronefast has his little shop, it's a Unity asset. It's nice, its functional, it fits with the general theme of Thronefast. Some time after release, the game is patched and when we next see the baker in his shop its a whole new building! The story behind it was he had made enough money to have new building, more ovens, bigger storage, etc. Same goes for pretty much any other asset out there.
If VR are spending time, and money, to develop in-house assets of things instead of procuring them at less cost and less time through Unity, then they are doing it wrong.
From what I have seen and heard, mostly from the videos, is that they're using a combination of both "Unity assets" and "in-house designed" assets. For instance, the racial identity assets, Thronefast being an example, are being in-house designed. But general assets like treets, grass, rocks, etc, are "Unity assets". They are, however, designing their own mechanisms for placing all of the assets and "painting" the world. Their own lighting systems. The water systems. Their own "lay-down system" for the grass/vegetation. Things that make their world "unique" to their game.
Kalok said:Nice "out of context" on that last half there Sparky...
What Brad SAID, in 2019, was that there was enough cash to finish the game and that extra investment would allow them to hire more people and FINISH FASTER.
I used a direct quote from the Q&A...
Q: Have you ever reached out to or considered working with a game publisher? If the right opportunity arose, would you take it?
A: We talk with publishers, investors, etc. all the time. Along with the crowdfunding we’ve received, we will also need further investment and/or support from publishers and investors which would allow us to accelerate. That said, we are a fiercely independent company, lean and mean, and this has been part of our culture since the project’s inception. What we are looking for, more accurately, are “partners”. What those partners are isn’t as important to us as who they are. Do they share our vision? Will they allow us to control the company and the game from a strategic and creative standpoint? Does Visionary Realms’ culture mesh well with these other entities? That’s what’s most important to us and what we think will ultimately allow us to release an amazing game. Compromise is the enemy of excellence.
Fragile said:Kalok said:Nice "out of context" on that last half there Sparky...
What Brad SAID, in 2019, was that there was enough cash to finish the game and that extra investment would allow them to hire more people and FINISH FASTER.
I used a direct quote from the Q&A...
Q: Have you ever reached out to or considered working with a game publisher? If the right opportunity arose, would you take it?
A: We talk with publishers, investors, etc. all the time. Along with the crowdfunding we’ve received, we will also need further investment and/or support from publishers and investors which would allow us to accelerate. That said, we are a fiercely independent company, lean and mean, and this has been part of our culture since the project’s inception. What we are looking for, more accurately, are “partners”. What those partners are isn’t as important to us as who they are. Do they share our vision? Will they allow us to control the company and the game from a strategic and creative standpoint? Does Visionary Realms’ culture mesh well with these other entities? That’s what’s most important to us and what we think will ultimately allow us to release an amazing game. Compromise is the enemy of excellence.
Which, literally, has zero to do with what you quoted from Brad, out of context, and less than zero to do with what I said.
I've never read/heard from them any intention on shipping with 'Unity assets'. The've been pretty clear the intention is to hand craft everything; the bought assets are placeholders to get the game built.
Yes, some companies use plug-ins like SpeedTree to make tree placement easier, but I wouldn't really consider that reusing assets since you can still design your own art with that.
philo said:Another game I am following the development of recently gave a targeted release date in 2021 but they noted that they do not plan on launching "feature complete".
Has VR ever mentioned the possibility of launching Pantheon in a non-feature complete status?
If not, when does that become a consideration? after 7 years of development? 10? 12? There has to be a line there somewhere or it will die on the vine.
Make no mistake, VR doesn't have unlimited funds. They want to get this game done as much as anyone. That being said I've stressed my concerns in the past that I think they're trying to polish the game too much prior to alpha.
Getting this project OUT of pre alpha and in to alpha will likely boost their funds, I know personally a few people who plan to donate to this project once they see some form of progression, getting it out of Alpha and into beta as fast as possible will help even more.
one step at a time though right? seriously get this game OUT of PA and into alpha! Hell I was expecting alpha last year, I knew what I singed up for when I signed up for alpha as I hope most people have and I don't expect a highly polished game in an alpha phase, all I want is something to test! :P
philo said:disposalist said:Not sure how many times the devs need to say that they are already funded through beyond releasing the complete game.
That was stated a couple years back on Facebook supposedly.
The amount of times we have been told something and not have it be the reality makes me skeptical.
The last official statement we have gotten on these forums was that series A funding was complete which allows VR to get into pre alpha stage.
We never got confirmation of series B funding.
If they are funded through release then there has to be a timeline for release. Money doesnt last indefinitely regardless of how long it takes. The longer it takes the more funding is required to pay people's salaries.
Some people's perspectives come off as quite naive.
I'm not going to scout through videos and newsletters, tweets and Kilsin-comments here, but I've seen it written and heard it said multiple times. Pretty sure Aradune used a phrase "funded past release" and it's been mentioned a couple of times that any further funding will simply effect the pace of development and things like inclusion of Bard/Necromancer.
What do you mean by "we have been told something and not have it be the reality"? Do you have some examples? I don't feel like there is anything like a significant "amount of times" we've been let down. In fact I don't feel let down at all. If some dates or efforts slip during a multi-year project that's evidence of nothing except reality is working as it should.
"If they are funded through release then there has to be a timeline for release". If a job take 1000 man hours and I have the funding for those 1000 man hours, the length of the project depends on how many people on the job and can range from 1 to 1000 hours. In fact it could even go to more than 1000 if the guy working is part time, or has holidays, never mind factoring in training and a dozen other aspects. Yeah people don't tend to get paid by the hour (not all people). Some are by the day. Some are salaried. It's not that simple, but neither does it mean there should be a release date just because they are confident they can pay for the game to be completed.
Having said that, I'm sure that they *do* have an idea of when they might release. I'm also sure it would be stupid to make that public in any way when it is almost certain to change since it's probably, even with a huge cash influx, more than a year away and many things may change uncontrollably for the better or worse between now and then.
Trusting what the devs say is not naive. If you don't believe what they say then *shrug* nothing will make you feel better and that's up to you. Even if I were being naive, assuming the worst is just as pointless and is also self-destructive.
EDIT: Just re-read this and I should say, I don't want to argue with you, Philo. Of course it's worth asking the questions and you have every right. We are all keen for VR to succeed and Pantheon to progress! Can't wait to know more, as always, and so looking forward to PA5.
disposalist said:"If they are funded through release then there has to be a timeline for release". If a job take 1000 man hours and I have the funding for those 1000 man hours, the length of the project depends on how many people on the job and can range from 1 to 1000 hours.
That statement assumes that the original estimates of 'the job', whatever that job entails, are actually still correct. While you might estimate a task or lists of tasks could take 1000 labor hours to complete and that you're funded for 1000 labor hours you can truthfully say that you're fully funded....until well into the project you come to the realization that 1000 labor hours isn't nearly enough to complete the task(s). Now what. Clearly the intitial statement is no longer true.
Damn it... It won't insert the post from Facebook.
There is a developer video on Thursday, the 30th.
Vandraad said:disposalist said:"If they are funded through release then there has to be a timeline for release". If a job take 1000 man hours and I have the funding for those 1000 man hours, the length of the project depends on how many people on the job and can range from 1 to 1000 hours.
That statement assumes that the original estimates of 'the job', whatever that job entails, are actually still correct. While you might estimate a task or lists of tasks could take 1000 labor hours to complete and that you're funded for 1000 labor hours you can truthfully say that you're fully funded....until well into the project you come to the realization that 1000 labor hours isn't nearly enough to complete the task(s). Now what. Clearly the intitial statement is no longer true.
Well, absolutely, but the comments on being funded through release and beyond were in recent months. Also, the change could go in either direction as they get good staff or Unity gets updated or more funding comes in or, or, or... I'm going to have to go find those comments aren't I?... Where is Bazgrim when you need him? ;^)
disposalist said:Well, absolutely, but the comments on being funded through release and beyond were in recent months. Also, the change could go in either direction as they get good staff or Unity gets updated or more funding comes in or, or, or... I'm going to have to go find those comments aren't I?... Where is Bazgrim when you need him? ;^)
I already put that Facebook comment in this thread, it was in 2018. Either Q3 or Q4.
zewtastic said:Kalok said:What Brad SAID, in 2019, was that there was enough cash to finish the game and that extra investment would allow them to hire more people and FINISH FASTER.
You do realize Brad never finished a game, right?
He hasn't? I think the thousands of people that played EQ and Vanguard would disagree with that statement.
I think the PAs gave them a wake-up call on how impactful it is to have outsiders in-game so early, and the expectations that can drift and churn the dev team a bit.
I think they learned "Hey, having PA folks is great in some respects, BUT we really have to buckle down as long as we can without outside commitments, then come out for our next PA/Alpha interactions ahead of the curve we now know we will face."
They have been heads down for over a year, because they realized that if they had continued to try to have the kind of PA schedule they had started, then they would have taken 2+ years to get where they have gotten in a little over a year. They had to stop that regardless of how good the feedback from us was or wasn't (and besides, they probably got all the useful data they needed fairly early, then continued PAs because they wanted to give us some play-time and exposure).
They are keeping their heads down as long as they can, depsite the PR hit in backing away a bit, because they know it is worth it in terms of getting the entire game system ready and solid across the board.
So, I am not at all surprised at the way things have panned out in terms of time taken.
disposalist said:EDIT: Just re-read this and I should say, I don't want to argue with you, Philo. Of course it's worth asking the questions and you have every right. We are all keen for VR to succeed and Pantheon to progress! Can't wait to know more, as always, and so looking forward to PA5.
That's a lovely breath of fresh air on the forums Disp :)
Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:What Brad SAID, in 2019, was that there was enough cash to finish the game and that extra investment would allow them to hire more people and FINISH FASTER.
You do realize Brad never finished a game, right?
He hasn't? I think the thousands of people that played EQ and Vanguard would disagree with that statement.
SoE tookover and finished EQ, and with Vanguard, Brad was MIA on most of the latter part as SOE finished it as well.