Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Quality > quantity at all times?

    • 520 posts
    January 13, 2020 12:39 PM PST

    Pantheon mobs in general hit like a truck and have high hp pool and I love that. I would however like to see places (and not just like a rare occurance either) where real threat lies in enemy numbers and key to victory is getting rid of them very fast - mainly through AoE abilities. I know Pantheon will have environmental trashy mobs, that will have similar function, but first of all I fear that they won't be as common as they should and second of all the golden standard  - most likely - would be to cc them and kill them one by one anyway. Any way to make AoE abilities in Pantheon more meaningful/needed (sometimes mendatory)? Or is half-arsed answer that "Pantheon is simply not this kind of game" enough? Or are my fears completely unfounded?

    • 1785 posts
    January 13, 2020 12:45 PM PST

    I don't know that this answers your question but I think there is a fine line between making AoE abilities useful and making them crutches.  For myself, I'm a little bit sick of combat experiences that revolve around the tank gathering as many mobs as possible while everyone spams AoEs to burn them down.  While there's no game out there that's actually built to require that, players seize on it to be more "efficient" and expect everyone to follow the same approach.  To me, the fact that games let players get away with doing that for every encounter is a design flaw.

     

    There's a broader conversation here about dealing damage in general.  I think the Wizard class in EQ was balanced relatively well in this regard.  Your big damage spells took a lot of mana and had a high cast time.  They were situational tools rather than things you would spam.  AoEs in Pantheon should be the same way, I think.

     

    Having written all that, maybe the best balancing mechanism for these sorts of abilities is a cooldown/reuse timer.  On a long enough timer, you only use them when you really, really mean it.

    • 520 posts
    January 13, 2020 12:54 PM PST

    Nephele said:

     For myself, I'm a little bit sick of combat experiences that revolve around the tank gathering as many mobs as possible while everyone spams AoEs to burn them down.  While there's no game out there that's actually built to require that, players seize on it to be more "efficient" and expect everyone to follow the same approach.  To me, the fact that games let players get away with doing that for every encounter is a design flaw.

    I completely agree and I'm not advocating for that, but there should be moments where certain abilities are extremally helpful and even some when they are required. I agree that most of the combat made on Terminus ground should be one by one - but not all the time! Most games unfortunately go to extreme and if someone is fighting only one mob (unless it's a boss) then he's doing it wrong - that IS sickening! But moving to another extreme just becouse previous extreme is completely ridiculous is rarely great idea - in most instances "middle ground" (not necessarily exactly in the middle though) is where a sweet spot lies.


    This post was edited by Hegenox at January 13, 2020 1:25 PM PST
    • 1281 posts
    January 13, 2020 12:55 PM PST

    I don't see a problem with that (swarm mobs) but I don't see it as a quality>quantity thing. The quality (qualitative measurement) is about the encounter/quest/zone in general. You can have a quality encounter that involves a lot of mobs. It just may be difficult to have a large quantity of encounters with large quantities of mobs, so they have fewer, better designed encounters/quest/whatever.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at January 13, 2020 12:56 PM PST
    • 520 posts
    January 13, 2020 1:03 PM PST

    bigdogchris said:

    I don't see a problem with that (swarm mobs) but I don't see it as a quality>quantity thing. The quality (qualitative measurement) is about the encounter/quest/zone in general. You can have a quality encounter that involves a lot of mobs. It just may be difficult to have a large quantity of encounters with large quantities of mobs, so they have fewer, better designed encounters/quest/whatever.

    I agree - I should have put QUALITY in quotation mark there or use another words. Oh well - lesson for the future ;-)

    • 643 posts
    January 13, 2020 1:23 PM PST

    As an enchanter I love crowds of mobs and keeping control of all this action.

     

    However, I want to see a balance - I htink they need to give more XP (relatively speaking) and make mobs take longer to kill (not just harder but LONGER) so after 20 minutes you've still been engaged and been busy and receive the same XP but maybe you killed 2-4 mobs instead of 20-24 trashy mobs........

    I hate the whole tone of DPS meters and such.

    But, if mobs don't make it worth the TIME then people will simply know the bet XP-per-minute mobs to choose. 

     

     

    • 1428 posts
    January 13, 2020 1:36 PM PST

    ae should be used sparingly.  pantheon already has slow simplified combat with an las12.  making pulls 1 button wonders isn't going to be fun.

    now if there is a swarm or mob disposition, to spice up the pull, yea sure.

    now i have the hassle of having to swap my bars >.>

    or if i didn't know that there was a ae portion in the fight, it'll cause a wipe with no chance of countering because i didn't prep properly.

     

    las12 is going to hurt players that like to play on the fly or if you have curve ball encounters.  i'd advise against this unless they make it clear that there is ae in the fight.  swap away EL EH ES

    actually i'm okay.  keep it random so it forces players to always have an ae button that they may or may not use.

     

    • 520 posts
    January 13, 2020 1:40 PM PST

    fazool said:

    As an enchanter I love crowds of mobs and keeping control of all this action.

     

    However, I want to see a balance - I htink they need to give more XP (relatively speaking) and make mobs take longer to kill (not just harder but LONGER) so after 20 minutes you've still been engaged and been busy and receive the same XP but maybe you killed 2-4 mobs instead of 20-24 trashy mobs........

    I hate the whole tone of DPS meters and such.

    But, if mobs don't make it worth the TIME then people will simply know the bet XP-per-minute mobs to choose. 

     

    Oh don't get me wrong - I do love CC! That is one of (if not THE ONE) the best combat roles/tactics. But there are other important mechanics - sometimes you need to have enough healing power to outheal dmg done, sometimes you need to have a tank able to survive massive hit, sometimes mobs are (and should be) completely immune to CC. AoE is one of the mechanic that should be used and sometimes required and not only act as a nice flavour .

    Swarm mobs are not worth the time, becouse in most modern games they are complete cannon fodder - not only low on hp, but they doesn't pose any threat.  But IF they do massive dmg when they catch us or apply nasty cumulative debuffs and dots or terrible status effects, then trust me - they automatically become very challenging and definitely worth the TIME .


    This post was edited by Hegenox at January 13, 2020 1:57 PM PST
    • 2419 posts
    January 13, 2020 2:26 PM PST

    Hegenox said:

    Pantheon mobs in general hit like a truck and have high hp pool and I love that. I would however like to see places (and not just like a rare occurance either) where real threat lies in enemy numbers and key to victory is getting rid of them very fast - mainly through AoE abilities. I know Pantheon will have environmental trashy mobs, that will have similar function, but first of all I fear that they won't be as common as they should and second of all the golden standard  - most likely - would be to cc them and kill them one by one anyway. Any way to make AoE abilities in Pantheon more meaningful/needed (sometimes mendatory)? Or is half-arsed answer that "Pantheon is simply not this kind of game" enough? Or are my fears completely unfounded?

    I bolded the part to which this response applies.  I would really hate to see a return of the EQ1 AE groups, that of 5 wizards and 1 enchanter.  The XP/AA per hour in those groups was unsurpassed, even if you wiped.  I could rack up well over a dozen AA points a day in those groups, with just 6 of us keeping large swaths of zones completely cleared, enough of a zone where if we were not there at least 4 other groups could happily XP off what just my group could keep cleared.

    In early EQ1 wizard AE spells were shunned, ignored and if used would get that wizard killed or even kicked from groups because crowd control was the better (read safer) approach to dealing with multiple mobs.  AE only worked (and will probably only work in Pantheon) if the entire group, regardless of composition, has >1 ability that can be an effective AE tool.  I'm not sure we're going to see multiple AE abilities across all the classes.  And if a group cannot support AE, it just isn't going to be a viable approach..and I'm just fine with that.

    • 520 posts
    January 13, 2020 2:38 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    Hegenox said:

    Pantheon mobs in general hit like a truck and have high hp pool and I love that. I would however like to see places (and not just like a rare occurance either) where real threat lies in enemy numbers and key to victory is getting rid of them very fast - mainly through AoE abilities. I know Pantheon will have environmental trashy mobs, that will have similar function, but first of all I fear that they won't be as common as they should and second of all the golden standard  - most likely - would be to cc them and kill them one by one anyway. Any way to make AoE abilities in Pantheon more meaningful/needed (sometimes mendatory)? Or is half-arsed answer that "Pantheon is simply not this kind of game" enough? Or are my fears completely unfounded?

    I bolded the part to which this response applies.  I would really hate to see a return of the EQ1 AE groups, that of 5 wizards and 1 enchanter.  The XP/AA per hour in those groups was unsurpassed, even if you wiped.  I could rack up well over a dozen AA points a day in those groups, with just 6 of us keeping large swaths of zones completely cleared, enough of a zone where if we were not there at least 4 other groups could happily XP off what just my group could keep cleared.

    In early EQ1 wizard AE spells were shunned, ignored and if used would get that wizard killed or even kicked from groups because crowd control was the better (read safer) approach to dealing with multiple mobs.  AE only worked (and will probably only work in Pantheon) if the entire group, regardless of composition, has >1 ability that can be an effective AE tool.  I'm not sure we're going to see multiple AE abilities across all the classes.  And if a group cannot support AE, it just isn't going to be a viable approach..and I'm just fine with that.

    I'm not talking about faster XP gain - I'm talking about challange , variation in tactic and battle dynamics. Trashy mobs should provide trashy xp - 1xp per mob is fine with me (or no xp at all for all I care) - though defeating them should be required  in order to get something good - like one "meaty" monster providing lots of xp and loot, surrounded by many small critters.

    Exactly - AoE spells were shunned/ignored - and probably it'll be the same in Pantheon - especially that most likely quad kiting will be nearly imposible in Pantheon (definitely harder than in EQ). Why add AoE spells to begin with then? It'd be fine if characters got other spells in their place (more dots, buffs , barriers/magic shields or utility spells) , but they didn't. AoE is a thing in Pantheon and therefore should be treated as such. If something that exists as part of  class fortes but the game doesn't provide decent means to utilize it - it's a poor game design.


    This post was edited by Hegenox at January 13, 2020 3:33 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 14, 2020 3:20 AM PST
    AoE damage spells are meant for like a swarm of bugs, like a nest. Same level so they can hit you but low AC, low HP and low damage. If you ignore them they'll kill you fairly fast...like crypt Beatles, or piranha fish. AoE groups boarder exploitation.
    • 2756 posts
    January 14, 2020 4:33 AM PST

    AoE should be about spreading damage, but doing less damage. A different tactic that is efficient and effective in a different situation. It shouldn't be overall more powerful such that we see groups of mages burning down masses of 'normal' monsters.

    When your group doesn't have an enchanter (or Bard (or Necro?... hopeful on Necro being another CC-capable class!)) you should be having to AoE to burn down multiple monsters while the tank fracntically AoE taunts, but then rest more in between so the rate of kill is the same, just a different tactic used.

    What VR has said in the past in a general way is that the quadernity is the ideal, but other group compositions should be viable if their shortcomings are mitigated, eg. if the players are skilled enough to alter their tactics or the toons are better equipped or whatever.

    An AoE group should be viable for specific situations and content, but otherwise, for 'normal' content should struggle, but be possible.  As I say, I don't want to see, like it is in some games, AoE groups being the ideal for 'progress'. You shouldn't be able to rely on that tactic for all situations.


    This post was edited by disposalist at January 14, 2020 4:36 AM PST
    • 2138 posts
    January 15, 2020 7:33 AM PST

    I think VR already has this sort of feature in place in amberfaet. If I am not mistaken (iianm?) The frozen crystal spiders are low HP but high damage - things you need to eliminate quickly or are a real pain if they add and are not managed during a main fight.

    And there might be more similarly related. I think on the last stream with cohh where they revealed faerthale, one of the designers clips had that one fatty bat getting in the way for a bit of humorous business? I think that was also a model of one of those nuisance type monsters that are low HP but high damage that come in multiples or can drop form the ceiling type of thing.

    My impression is, there may be a need to switch to a sort of AE component or rather deal with these happenstance situations while on the way to or while dealing with a certain goal or typical dungeon crawl. Interstingly, on the dev stream the rogue was doing most of the CC'ing  even though they did have a chanter. What I like is the concept of the spur of the moment need to change tactics to deal with the situation as it presents itself, rather than a typical AE session, per se. Like you cant stop and say, wait, le me get my AE' stuff up rather, like the Incredibles when they pose as a family ready to battle, you need to swtich in an instant and deal, then move on. 

    • 238 posts
    January 15, 2020 8:28 AM PST

    Hegenox said:

    Pantheon mobs in general hit like a truck and have high hp pool and I love that. I would however like to see places (and not just like a rare occurance either) where real threat lies in enemy numbers and key to victory is getting rid of them very fast - mainly through AoE abilities. I know Pantheon will have environmental trashy mobs, that will have similar function, but first of all I fear that they won't be as common as they should and second of all the golden standard  - most likely - would be to cc them and kill them one by one anyway. Any way to make AoE abilities in Pantheon more meaningful/needed (sometimes mendatory)? Or is half-arsed answer that "Pantheon is simply not this kind of game" enough? Or are my fears completely unfounded?

    I think its too early to tell to be honest. The dev team is still developing encounters and mechanics related to those encounters. It could be possible to see encounters that spawn various "mini" adds that have to be burned down before they overrun the team. They have mentioned that glass cannon mobs will be a fairly common occurrence and that these mobs will have a low hp pool but dish out a ton of damage. 

    I doubt that we will see a lot of AOE mobbing scenarios in general though. This type of encounter usually yields its self to a faster-paced combat scenario which is something that Pantheon doesn't seem to be trying to emulate.  

    • 627 posts
    January 15, 2020 9:09 AM PST
    In one of the streams in the cave area, there Were small spiders that Were swam units, low hp little damage but a lot of Them. The devs talked about them.
    • 520 posts
    January 15, 2020 12:13 PM PST

    Manouk said:

    My impression is, there may be a need to switch to a sort of AE component or rather deal with these happenstance situations while on the way to or while dealing with a certain goal or typical dungeon crawl. Interstingly, on the dev stream the rogue was doing most of the CC'ing  even though they did have a chanter. What I like is the concept of the spur of the moment need to change tactics to deal with the situation as it presents itself, rather than a typical AE session, per se. Like you cant stop and say, wait, le me get my AE' stuff up rather, like the Incredibles when they pose as a family ready to battle, you need to swtich in an instant and deal, then move on. 

    That's what I'm talking about. I don't want AoE rush, I want entertaining fights where many unexpected things may happen even with CC in the group.

    • 2886 posts
    January 15, 2020 3:02 PM PST

    Ambient mobs, which are the mobs you're referring to, typically have low enough HP that a solid AoE or two could usually eliminate the threat. See this clip: https://youtu.be/QWgKSQJtHrA?t=766

    They're described as glass cannons with very high damage and very low HP, which forces you to address them first in some way. How common these ambient mobs will be is just far too early to tell.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at January 15, 2020 3:04 PM PST
    • 1992 posts
    January 15, 2020 5:19 PM PST

    Hegenox said:

     I want entertaining fights where many unexpected things may happen even with CC in the group.

    This should be on a large plaque hanging in the Dev's breakroom :D

     

    (if it isn't already)

    • 624 posts
    January 16, 2020 3:17 AM PST

    I found it interesting on Project 1999 that they modified the server code so that AoE spells/songs can only affect four mobs max. No bards swarm kiting an entire zone, no wiz/enchanter AoE groups. Quad kiting still occurs, but the exps gained per time is on par (even less) than a solid group chain pulling. Pantheon should let the number of mobs affected scale inversely to the level. Say 2 red mobs, 3 yellow, 4 white...etc. down to infinite gray mobs. (numbers just examples for argument's sake)

    • 793 posts
    January 17, 2020 11:36 AM PST

    I hope the AI is smater than the average NPC.

    Why do 4+ mobs all try to beat the snot out of 1 tank , when there 5 other players shooting and swinging at them. I understand the tanks target focusing on him, but the others should generate hate toward the other group members as they do damage, no matter how many "Your momma's so fat" jokes, the tank yells at them.

     


    This post was edited by Fulton at January 17, 2020 11:37 AM PST
    • 1428 posts
    January 17, 2020 12:22 PM PST

    Fulton said:

    I hope the AI is smater than the average NPC.

    Why do 4+ mobs all try to beat the snot out of 1 tank , when there 5 other players shooting and swinging at them. I understand the tanks target focusing on him, but the others should generate hate toward the other group members as they do damage, no matter how many "Your momma's so fat" jokes, the tank yells at them.

     

    pvp.  usually players are much smarter than npcs :D

    • 768 posts
    January 18, 2020 5:23 AM PST

    I like the idea of mobs pooring in, but these not being weaker than others by definition. This seems very much in line with the "alarmist" disposition. (but I could be wrongfully interpretating)

    As you confront a mob, more of the same kind of mobs will join in the fight with the chance of the group becoming swarmed. Where I see a difference in gameplay, no it should not be about massive aoe dps, but rather, cc and specific target taunts of the tank. Please don't make it all about, let the mobs face the tank and bring the thunder kind of deal. An encounter where you have 1 mob being fought, one-two mezzed, one rooted and another stunned is already asking a lot from the group. But if that first mob doesn't have special selfheals or other. This encounter could be challenging already. If you don't have the mezz or stunpower, you can try to kill them all by aoe's but the tank should not be able to have all mobs faced to him at all times. And this style of fighting would be very demanding on the healer(s). But it's another option on how to defeat these 'swarm mobs'. 

    If mobs are in general weaker than the player, it doesn't seem logic to push them into fighting the group. Unless there are plenty of them that will pile up over time. Another aspect would be that, the weaker mobs being strong in group because each mob within that group has a different negative affect on the group (a stun, a knockback, a mezz, a fear, a debuff). All these combined will make it very challenging, they might not do that much damage, but because the group as a whole can really undermine the playergroup's strength, they are a menace that could require a lot of aoe asap. 

    Mobs of the same type that place an accumulating dot or multiple different accumulating dots even on the group, could be a design on its own. The foe starts off strong, requires aoe's but as the foes are defeated the diminishing dots make the remaining mobs stronger. So you can do initial aoe damage to decrease mobs and number of dots, but the remaining will 'evolve' into a stronger encounter. Similar to sacrificing buffs, hp or mana when dieing.

    I'm not a fan of massive group or zone pulls and aoe burns. It dislocates the design from its initial intent. I'm ok with the Pantheon spider example, as they are more of quick ambush kind of deal, where a player doesn't seem to be able to rally those up from the getgo.

     
    • 79 posts
    January 18, 2020 7:01 PM PST

    ae groups in sebillis is hands down the most fun i ever had in a group in eq being a hairs breath away from DOOM  aaaaaaaahhhhhhh,  fun times.

    • 79 posts
    January 18, 2020 7:03 PM PST

    Fulton said:

    I hope the AI is smater than the average NPC.

    Why do 4+ mobs all try to beat the snot out of 1 tank , when there 5 other players shooting and swinging at them. I understand the tanks target focusing on him, but the others should generate hate toward the other group members as they do damage, no matter how many "Your momma's so fat" jokes, the tank yells at them.

     

    just picture it as if he just kicked them in the balls.. someone kicks you in the balls  your not letting go till you   bite theyre ass

    • 510 posts
    January 19, 2020 11:01 AM PST

    Still, I would like to see a few scripted events that are more along the lines of "surive for 20 minutes" than just "work hard to kill ".  I have always wanted to see/be a part of Helm's Deep from the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy.  That battle wasn't about winning - it was about surviving until the Rhoherium got there.  So, let's set up a wall and let a horde attack.  The goal is survive.  Sure - rain down those AoEs, fire those arrows, swing that sword.  The mobs are endless.  Give them 1 hp each - the mobs are endless and you dont get XP for them - you get XP for finishing the event.  Eventually, you run out of mana/power.  Eventually you run out of arrows.  Eventually you run out of stamina to sword'n'board.  Set up some seige engines that you can man/operate while waiting for NPCs to bring more arrows or while your waiting for mana to regen.  Grab some food/drink while recovering stamina.  And remember - you can still die by a thousand cuts.  Or a thousand magic missiles.  Or a thousand arrows flying in your general direction.  And if YOU have seige engines?  They should get them too.  Throw in some quick side evets:  just like Helm's Deep when Aragorn and Gimli had to jump down and give cover until the gates were repaired.  Maybe task our heroes with destroying specific targets hidden behind a canyon wall - like seige engines or recovery areas for wounded orcs and etc.  We could add more fun by simply counting the number of kills by each member or some other results for a score card for the group.  Survive the encounter and get a chest drop.