As always a little bit of column A, B, and C.
Always up (or waiting for respawn) static content is your basic background but if the only source of content it gets stale really fast.
Predictable world events can build suspense and give short term targets for players to work toward. If they are too predictable and valuable, then the 24/7 guilds will just monopolize it.
Random world events are more like fortunate encounters. They can be both really disruptive and rewarding outside of the standard difficulty vs reward table. Too much truly random content can be frustrating and really grindy though.
Trasak has it. We want it all, but of course, the more you have the more careful you have to be to not stuff it up.
You can't feel like you've grown powerful and 'mastered' content unless there's plenty of relatively predictable stuff. You can't be challenged and excited unless there's plenty of new and dynamic stuff.
Too much predicatable stuff gets 'owned' (and controlled). Too much dynamic/random stuff makes for a very 'gamey' experience rather than a world you can come to know.
So, yeah, we'd like all of the above, please, and oh, if you could develop/implement them perfectly, that'd be cool, thanks VR ;^)
I played many other games where there are constant World Events and most of them were predictable, wait a day or an hour and the same event would happen which always broke my immersion in the game. The break in immersion gets even worse when the World Event unlocks a new Point on the Map, having to unlock the same area time and time again gets really tiring after the fith or sixth time. The random world events are usually generated in a certain area and are usually locked behind a rng through doing a certain task, which is better then the predictable version but it'll make certain players hold a monoploy over those tasks if the rewards are big enough for that event but the same can be also said for the predicatable events.
If the content is not recyclable and you can only do them once per character then that'll change a few things but players will still figure out how to unlock those events, the problem is how they'll unlock which would be the issue. For instance if an event is unlocked by killing X named mob then a good number of people are prob going to be sitting around waiting to kill that mob for that event but if the event is unlocked by completing X task, killing 3 named npcs, opening a chest, and talking to a npc and help him out in that big underground cave system then it'll lessen how people can control those events but people will still find a way to get a profit from those events even when they do them, like selling the materials needed to complete the former task or whatever. But then comes the issue with events being too "random" which can drive some players into not wanting to bother to unlock them. This is where the predictable events would come in handy but again having a event that's too predictable will create the issue with small groups of players essentially controlling those events but if that issue was resolved then it would make finding and completing said events easier then the random version. So, there is a benefit to having predictable events but if you want my opinion, i'd say having both would be best as you can use the Predictable version for simple rewards that are focused on massive groups while the random ones for smaller groups/no groups but have bigger rewards that'll either come into play later or right then and there.
So, yeah. Both would be best i'd say but don't make them recyclable for the user.
Ranarius said:I have always enjoyed world events in MMO's, for me it actually makes the world feel more real. Keeping everything the same consistently is a little unrealistic.
They can be random, or predictable...but I'd prefer both.
I agree with Ranarius. Random or predictable or both. :) Something like Durin’s Day (an example) may fall on the same day, but events in the world being the same and consistent wouldn’t make sense.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #aradune
I see things a bit differently from many others here. I feel like predictable, static content often becomes stale - even when it's great stuff. There needs to be the potential for change and evolution over time.
That change doesn't necessarily have to be massive sweeping changes. It can be more subtle. In some cases, sure, an event occurs and the inhabitants of an area are driven out or displaced. But in other cases perhaps those inhabitants gain new allies, or a new leader emerges with different tactics. These sorts of things can keep content fresh while still keeping it familiar. It might still be orcs or ratkin that you're facing, but they're different than they were before.
Of course, I am absolutely in favor of larger events and changes to the world as well. However, there are a few rules I think these need to follow:
1) Events need to be about the world, not about players. If something happens, whether it's major or minor, it should be done because it's advancing the story of Terminus in some way. Not just because "well we wanted to have some fun with the players"
2) Events should never, ever be predictable by the calendar. For example, if we players learn that events always roll out on Tuesday morning after a patch, guess what we'll do on Tuesday mornings after patches? We'll swarm the events.
3) Indicators that an event is coming should be in-game, not out-of-game. There should be signs and portents. Small, subtle changes that occur before the larger ones. "Does the sky seem darker to you here recently? And what's with the glow from that old shrine, was that always there?" That sort of thing.
4) Events cannot happen too frequently, or at least not in the same place or part of the world. If one month the bandits hold Black Rose Keep, and the next month the Orcs take it over, and then the month after that they're driven out by a cabal of Necromancers.... that's too much change, too fast. It's far more meaningful when changes happen rarely (and unexpectedly).
5) There cannot be a pattern. We players are really good at figuring out patterns. Far too good. If you want to keep us invested in the events and changes that you make to the world, each event that occurs needs to be significantly different from the last one. If every event follows the same formula - ie, the army invades, the players fight back the enemies, and then challenge the leader to win the day - that becomes old hat very quickly. Sometimes maybe the challenge in front of players is to hold the line while the citizens evacuate. Or rescue the king and get him safely away from the battle. Or sometimes, simply to survive and escape.
So, with all that said and taken into consideration, bring on events. Make the world feel alive. Make it so that stories are in motion and don't simply repeat on a loop over and over. Give us more incentive to utilize alts, progeny or otherwise, and re-explore places that we encountered on our first characters.
Firstly I note that there are different threads about "world events" and "holiday" events. I treat this thread as having nothing to do with festivals and the like and having everything to do with things like unlocking new races on a server, unlocking flying public transportation on a server, a dragon attacking a town and if the dragon wins the town is unavailable to players at least for a while but if the dragon loses there may be a title or some loot available, etc. Or a new zone is introduced and for a month there are developer or guide quests relating to it. Just trying to give background from other MMOs not suggesting that any single one of these things belongs "as is" in Pantheon.
With that explanation of how I interpret your question I essentially agree with Nephele on the answer. Not to imply I don't also agree with other responses above. Using Nephele's numbers:
1. I agree that events should be about the world. But they need not necessarily advance anything - although they may. In the case of the dragon attack hypothetical all may be as it was a week later, win or lose. The purpose is to add some excitement and interest not to permanently change Terminus even in a small way.
2. I agree. Festivals and holidays are based on calendars. Not world events as I define them.
3. I agree for minor events like the dragon attack. Those that aren't in the area and can't learn of it and get there with considerable speed just don't participate. That is only logical - dragons tend not to issue invitations to their attacks weeks ahead of time. For more major events, I agree only if the event is long enough that there are days or weeks or even more for players to learn of them and participate. Hold a major event that gives some major reward and limit it to the people that happened to be on-line at the time and could get to where they needed to be on time in a game with slow travel and you will exclude 99% of the player base. Who will not be happy. There are reasons major events are announced on forums well in advance and set up so that anyone that isn't simply away from the game for weeks or longer can participate.
4. I agree with the first sentance and the last sentance but I view the rest as a single event. Bandits taking over the Keep can logically be followed by the phase one and phase two reactions. This is like the dragon hypothetical - a relatively minor occurance limited to a very small area. I consider it neither too much change nor too fast. I consider it a single event running a logical course.
5. I agree in all respects. Having similar events is fine - life is not totally random. But there should be variations as Nephele suggests - neither is life totally patterned.
Cohh Carnage did a Playthrough of "The Long Dark" prior to or during it's release with Devs's listening in/watching on. There was a point in the game that depended on a world event in order to advance- a full moon or something. It was discovered on that playthrough, that this world event was tied to an RNG factor. As a result, this world event did not occur for some time and caused a stalemate in gameplay that was very uncomfortable, Cohh could not do anything in game to advance and provided that feedback, live.
World events are cool provided they are not tied to, or dependent upon a players progression. However on the flip side world events are fun if they can be turned on/off or directed by a players expected end, for instance: the hollowshade moor war (owlbears/sonic wolves/grimlings) for smithing drops or the Rockhopper/goranga cave in Maidens eye for hides. In both of these cases, the player can leave in whatever state they left it and of another player came in looking for sonic wolves but seeing owlbears, they know they can start the war and have the sonic wolves win. If the grimlings win, they can change the tides again to ensure the victory of the sonic wolves. Likewise if someone wiped out the Rockhoppers, a player can eradicate the goranga cave men, knowing that soon the rockhoppers will come back and they can show stewardship by keeping some alive and get oodles of hides and then leave.
The other side effect is the unlucky few that always go somewhere where some randomized world event happens to be occurring and develop their own coincidental phobias.
"Going to amberfaet? sure i'll come along, just a second while I get heat acclimation stuff... hmm?....what do you mean? its always hot in amberfaet. Thats the ... thing, looks cold but really it's hot, keeps you on your toes, a dev design thing I guess. brt."
I agree with Nephele. While roaming giants in SRo in EQ1 was fun, the world events in GW2 felt like doing chores. They were constant and annoying. The sad thing is I can tell the devs put in a lot of time and hard work on those events. I wanted to like them, but meh.
Open raid bosses are fun to watch and/or compete with other guilds.
For "world events" I would prefer them to be the occasion, prefferably around a holiday, and a guide or GM leading it to interact with the community during that event. If the events are rare, I will look forward to them and make sure I can participate. If they are all the time I will feel like I need to avoid them because they are a distraction.
Aenra said:Rather than focusing on what else you can cram in, would it not be best to focus a bit more on getting the core stuff done? Given the countless delays thus far.. and the fact that additions, being just that, ie additions, need not be in from the getgo?
That..is a very very valid point.
Aenra said:Rather than focusing on what else you can cram in, would it not be best to focus a bit more on getting the core stuff done? Given the countless delays thus far.. and the fact that additions, being just that, ie additions, need not be in from the getgo?
These threads don't actually have anything to do with pantheon, sadly.
So why do you suppose Kilsin asked the question? What's his role at VR? He's the community manager and lead moderator for the forums. Part of that job is to encourage interesting dialogue within the community. Another part is to collect and filter information from the community and feed it back to the devs in bite-sized digestible chuncks.
It is a significant challenge to keep a community interested in a game like Pantheon over a protracted period and not have it stagnate or turn toxic. His questions often make me consider different aspects to games I've played in the past, perhaps with a different light than what I've considered previously. It does make for interesting discussion.
Don't assume that every question asked directly translates to planned features or design elements of the game.
VR might be testing the waters, collecting opinion to drive long term code architecture or other internal requirements where things will be easier a few years from now if certain decisions were made early on.
Since we're not privy to the back room discussions, perhaps it is a bit premature to jump to conclusions that the devs are wasting time, losing focus, etc. I'm fairly certain Joppa has a clear vision and is keeping the team on the rails toward release of something which maps to the game as described through the FAQ and other sources over the past few years.
Celandor said:
Don't assume any question asked directly translates to planned features or design elements of the game.
FIFY
As you said, it's to drum up conversation on a board ravenous for anything.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - World Events - Do you like random or predictable world events or would you rather stick to normal structured content? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
All of the above. Some predictable events can give folks something to look forward to. Ominous warnings on the winds, an evil looking storm on the horizon, and other little tell, tell signs that something is about to go down can lead to some quick organizing and fun. This was one of the things I liked about RIFT's zone invasion events. You'd get some flavor text and a few minutes later all hell would break loose. They later added, for ease of grouping, the option to drop in and out of raid groups during the event.
Random and unpredictable is just as fun. One minute your doing the group grind and all of a sudden a group member steps on a randomly spawned rock or something and awakens the dark and the hounds of hell are unleashed. Flee or fight?
There's potential in all of these.
To me this reads as; would you enjoy world events or not? And if so, do you prefer random or predictable?
I'll try to reply as such. Obviously there will be structured content and that I will get into.
World events do seem like a logical way of introducing things into/onto Terminus.
A world events to me is; An event that affects every corner of the world to some degree. The main point here, it's global information that something is happening.
That brings it to it's unrollement. Is it happening quick or slowly or gradually (meaning in stages). All these scenarios can fit in depending on the scale of the event or the actual impact of it on the current Lore/world itself. Aka are we adding a new race or has the planet gone dark because the light is blotted out by an incoming planet?
Each has their place. And I'd enjoy them all if I'm the game to experience the event happening.
Reoccuring world events, could just be part of the world that makes Terminus. The question here, does that still count as a world event or can it be listed under normal structured content. As the reocurrence makes it common content unique to Terminus. I do think that, in this scenario, the "hype" that it sprouted initially will die out over time, and it might turn into a mundane grind for those that still want to persue it. Here it comes down to, why did you put it in there and why does it have to be repetitive? You put a lot of pressure on yourself to keep it fresh and interesting over years to come, to what end?
Going back to random events. I see a lot of merrit in the perception system to introduce world events in a random design. Example; Let's say behind the screens, the devs have worked out the entire line leading up to the world event (WE). And it's triggered or progression if you will, is incorperated into something called; Random World Event ping (RWE). This RWE would not be obviously different when encountered. The way this RWE is presented still has to make sense of course and cannot be a simple shiny balloon dancing on the ground. And depending on how that first RWE is dealt with by a player, the actual WE has progressed or not. For the WE to occur X number of RWE have to be dealt with in the same manner. However, who gets the RWE and when or where cannot be pinned down. You could introduce the RWE to a low player or high. In a dungeon, open world or town. Players cannot go out and farm those RWE to quickly progress the WE as there is no knowing where, when or who will get that RWE. In case a player gets an RWE and they solve it differently then 'supposed to', the RWE is solved but the WE has not progressed. No harm is done and the player who solved it differently is happy either way.
Now if the community talks to one another, the word will spread and those RWE's will get known and players who do get them, will solve them the same manner. And the WE will progress. How far into the progression of the WE is not known by the players. It's important to consider timelaps between initial RWE and supposed release of the WE itself, you don't want it to become too vague or too fast as it would just ruin the whole design. The RWE's themselves could have stages, meaning that if X number of first wave RWE have been dealt with accordingly, the next wave of RWE's is unrolled into the world etc. This could create a build up and excitement within the community. The difficulty/complexity to solve the RWE could build up in a way that it's manageable by low level player and high level players alike.
Anyway just a thought.
Lastly, the predictable world events scenario. Yes, I enjoy those as long as they are well carried out, meaning you have decent lore explaing it and time period to get many players experiencing the transition. (I hated the feeling of; Ah I'm back online, what happened, why is that looking like this and what's up with that..? And someone would reply; O yeah, this thing happened when you were away for 2 weeks. Ah, hmm ok then, myes..) There needs to be a lot of story around this build up.
Also a final note: Being able to start and complete the world event AFTER it actually happened, is a big no no for me. It removes any meaning from the world event itself.
I like both structured content and world events.
However, when it comes to world events I don't like events that are extremely predictable and happen on set schedules. I would like to experience world events that happen as "random" occurrence, or rather their spawn time isn't extremely predictable and relies on multiple factors vs just a time-lapse. For example, I would prefer to see an event that can only occur on odd days of the week (or gaming cycle), only at night/day, only between the hours of X and X, only if X factor was met beforehand, and maybe also had rng element tied npc spawn.
I don't think that "events" which have an easily identifiable spawn timer or that have easily identifiable pre-conditions really constitute events. I think that "events" that fall under these conditions are really just over-glorified structured content which tries to get players to believe they are experiencing a rare opportunity when in all actuality they are not.
When I think of the term world events, I think of Rift and GW2. Both of which were far too much in terms of these. World events should not be required gameplay and should not be a common occurance.
Something that I've always thought but don't think I've ever seen ties in both world bosses and world events. How about rather than having these random kill x mobs to clear type world events we instead make world bosses the events? Let's say a zone such as North/South Ro, lets make the event/world boss spawn after X amount of mobs killed in the zones. With the number of mobs being enough to not be 'farmable' but not so much that it can't spawn more than once a day. For this example let's say 5000 mobs killed triggers it. This number should NOT be static. The number of mobs needed should have a range in which it varies after every kill to not make it so predictable. There could be an event before it where players attempt to seal a portal that the mobs opened to summon the boss. The players don't stop it in time and the boss is summoned. These world bosses should be level appropriate to the zones so it becomes an impromptu raid event.
Just my 2 cents. I enjoy the impromptu stuff that can't be planned. So long as these bosses aren't tied to epic questlines or BIS gear, they won't ever be seriously contested. However, it gives content for more players to experience raiding in the game, provides gear for those who are not big into the raiding scene (albeit lower quality than the full scale raids), and helps to add change to regular monotonous routine of grinding when leveling.
Enitzu said:
Something that I've always thought but don't think I've ever seen ties in both world bosses and world events. How about rather than having these random kill x mobs to clear type world events we instead make world bosses the events? Let's say a zone such as North/South Ro, lets make the event/world boss spawn after X amount of mobs killed in the zones. With the number of mobs being enough to not be 'farmable' but not so much that it can't spawn more than once a day. For this example let's say 5000 mobs killed triggers it. This number should NOT be static. The number of mobs needed should have a range in which it varies after every kill to not make it so predictable. There could be an event before it where players attempt to seal a portal that the mobs opened to summon the boss. The players don't stop it in time and the boss is summoned. These world bosses should be level appropriate to the zones so it becomes an impromptu raid event.
FFXIV does exactly what you're describing with their "S Rank" hunts, which are multi-group encounters - essentially, world bosses. Each of these has a respawn cooldown of generally 50-80 hours. After that cooldown, the boss has spawns when the trigger condition occurs. Some triggers have a random chance and others don't.
The trigger condition can be many different things. Here are some examples of triggers.
- Traverse spawn points during a Full Moon.
- Ensure all FATE events succeed for exactly 1 hour straight.
- Spawns after its random timer expires. Rain puts it to sleep, ensuring it won't spawn for 200 minutes.
- Kill 100 Earth Sprites
You can see the full list (and variety) of spawn triggers at this link.
I'm a big fan of this approach for world bosses in general - as long as the triggers include enough randomness so that players can't easily farm them. Sadly, in FFXIV, players have used the knowledge about the triggers to intentionally spawn the bosses and farm them as often as possible - although that's easier with the ones that have a guaranteed trigger than a random trigger.