Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

acceptable. vs expectations.

    • 68 posts
    January 5, 2020 4:12 PM PST

    Hello all. I am just curious what the community as a whole thinks about a game realease ahead of schedule vs 100% ( or so) ready for launch.  Personally i think as long as the game is playable and classes at least somewhat balance and enough content to get me to max level (with raids) i can wait for updates and perfections.  I know this came at a disadvantage for Vanguard but this is an entirely different situation, as it stands(as the supporter backed out). my question is, what is the acceptable tolerance for "fans/players" to allow to be able to launch a game, and be willing to stick with it. granted i have no idea how far they are or how much needs to be fixed. this is just my personal feelings on what you as a community think is acceptable. 

    PS I understand this (in my knowledge) is the first game i  have been involved in that has had this much exposure during development and as such im chomping at the bit to play, so take this please as a general question and not an argument. i am honestly just trying to get a feel for the community.

    • 521 posts
    January 5, 2020 4:32 PM PST

    You only get one shot for your chance to WOW

    • 2001 posts
    January 5, 2020 4:46 PM PST

    First, My personal opinion is NO.

    Second,you're basically asking us to set a value on "ahead of schedule" when you didn't define how FAR ahead of schedule. Tomorrow? A month? A year? Longer?

    Third, no one can make a reasonable decision on anything being "ahead of schedule" when they don't HAVE a schedule to begin with.

    • 520 posts
    January 5, 2020 5:14 PM PST

    Thing is - what you propose WILL happen - that is basically ALPHA and BETA. But for now none of things that you mentioned is finished. Classes are not even completely defined or even made (summoner), so balancing wasn't even started. Many classes don't have their signature features working yet. Not to mention other aspects of the game. Hemlock Reaper said it perfectly - "You only get one shot for your chance to WOW". 

    I get it - I can't wait to play this game either, but I'd rather wait longer for something brilliant, than get now something underwhelming. 

    • 557 posts
    January 5, 2020 5:14 PM PST

    I would far rather see the game delayed by however long as it takes to do it right the first time.

    I was in Vanguard pre-release early enough to remember when druids were added.  I worked hard as a tester right up until release trying to provide valuable feedback and improve the quality of the game.  It was pushed out the door too soon, heavily ridden with bugs.   I played for two months after release and quit because of how buggy and incomplete it felt.  I never went back.

    What you are asking is like telling an artist to hang their work in the gallery half-finished and suggest they "can always splash some more paint on later".  Neither the customer nor the artist is going to be comfortable with that arrangement.


    This post was edited by Celandor at January 5, 2020 5:15 PM PST
    • 50 posts
    January 5, 2020 5:39 PM PST

    I completely understand the desire to release the game. We are all excited. But as others have said, there is only on first impression. Many of us still remember what happened in Vanguard and absolutely do not want to repeat that mistake. While the game doesn’t have to be flawless (no game ever is) it does need to be stable and offer a great experience that isn’t riddled by bugs. We need to be patient and trust that the developers are doing everything they can. One of the most important things we can do prelaunch is to test the game to the best of our abilities and provide detailed bug reports and feedback. 


    This post was edited by Aurelio at January 5, 2020 5:45 PM PST
    • 133 posts
    January 5, 2020 6:26 PM PST

    I would have to say that I would rather this game come out as bug-free and issue-free as it possibly can. As others in here have said, you only get one chance at WOWing your fanbase and even potential people wanting to play the game. I played Vanguard...what...two months before it was shut down? I believe it was, and that was because...well no one was really talking about it. I was trying hard to understand why no one was really talking about this seemingly amazing game...then I got into it. That game...omg I don't think I have ever had a game make me want to put my fist through my monitor. It was a mess. It had more bugs than a lice-riddled rat in roach-infested, bedbug ridden house; graphical issues, rendering issues, optimization issues, it felt clunky and my computer at the time (which was an amazing computer in its day graphics wise and whatnot) couldn't even run the game without sounding like it was either going to take off or explode. I would much rather wait for as long as it takes to have the game come out and have it be as bug free as it can get, rather than releasing it early.


    That's not to say that I'm not excited to see it as well, because I am very curious and interested in the game as well. I want to try this game out so badly, but at the same time, I don't want it pushed out just because of my own, to me anyways, selfish need to play it, at the cost of the game being good. I don't want Pantheon to fall into the trap of releasing early because everyone is screaming for it to be released because they want to play...I have seen a few games do this and in the end they end up getting the axe. I don't want that for Pantheon and would much rather wait.

    • 1247 posts
    January 5, 2020 8:07 PM PST

    I am happy for the VR team to take the time they need. Imo it will probably release when they get to that healthy balance where a large majority of Pantheon is ready. It’s very exciting. I think it can be a bit anxious with that wait though. :)


    This post was edited by Syrif at January 5, 2020 8:29 PM PST
    • 2756 posts
    January 6, 2020 2:31 AM PST

    I think VR are doing it right. They are planning *extensive* testing phases and I don't doubt intend the game to be actually complete when they launch. This is just another way they are intentionally bucking modern trends in order to do it right. While other companies are using a "Live Service" euphamism to launch incomplete and full of bugs, VR are getting the community involved in large and long test phases and will, I believe, launch only *when it's ready*.

    I'm sure they already have a very good idea of exactly what content they want included in the release and what might have to wait until after (depending on how much their funding continues to grow and how much they can properly achieve by throwing extra funding at the project).

    I hope VR sees all the pointless complaining and nay-saying re. their schedules as I do: an annoyance to be rightfully ignored as best they can.

    Keep to the Vision VR. Release when you are ready. We Trust In Pantheon (TM).

    • 81 posts
    January 6, 2020 3:57 AM PST

    Timing is everything.

    Timing is also the hardest thing to anticipate.  Some games came out too early and got ravaged because of bugs.  Other games came out at the right time but got ravaged because all the little changes made besically changed the game into something people no longer wanted.  Other games came out too late after everyone had already had an interest,  peaked that interest,  then lost interest.

    Then there is the worry of technology.  Games that rely on outside game engines have failed because of that engine.  Then there is money.  A key factor in any business,  how do you keep paying employees while perfecting the game ?  Do you accept outside monetary help knowing now you have to answer to them ?  Do you try and crowdfund the whole thing ? 

     

    Too many variables.  No sense trying to guess what will be best,  they have people for that.  Trust in them and say a little prayer on the side.

    • 627 posts
    January 6, 2020 5:34 AM PST
    Do not release before the game is DONE.
    Its a mistanke that can ruin the games succes compleatly. Look at No man sky, Atlas, Fallout 4 and so on...
    • 3852 posts
    January 6, 2020 7:39 AM PST

     

    Firstly there is no schedule - at least not one publically known. They have their own internal objectives.

    Secondly, as always, I agree with the consensus in favor of not releasing until they have something worth releasing and in good shape.

    Thirdly, as always, I emphasize that the perfect is the enemy of the good. No developer is ever satisfied. There are always improvements that can be made. The game should be released when it is good enough, NOT when it is as good as it possibly can be. 

    As others have said - good enough means reasonably stable and attractive enough (not just the visuals) to gave an excellent first impression. It is fine if the world is half done and some races and classes are not completed. Many people think of faster moving games in considering what we need to have at release. In a game where a typical player will not hit level-cap for years, if ever, they have a boatload of time to complete the final zones even if they do not exist at release.

    • 500 posts
    January 6, 2020 7:49 AM PST

    Well said @Dorotea. Agree completely.  VR should release when it is in good enough shape to do so, not before. I have confidence that this will be the case.

    • 1273 posts
    January 6, 2020 10:34 AM PST

    I'm on the fence on this.  The game can still WOW the playerbase if it's incomplete, it just depends on what parts are incomplete.  For example, late game content can be finished/added after release.  They really need to make sure the early game is spactacular before release though.  Especially when you take into account that the point of the game is to explore and enjoy the world, not necessarily to reach "end game" content ASAP.  

    • 68 posts
    January 6, 2020 3:08 PM PST

    Thats kind of where i was going with the question ranarius. My friend and i were talking about this over the weekend and i am still under the impression that the game is a ways off yet (im not a developer so i honestly wouldnt have the first clue. just my feelings on it and it keeps me from being dissapointed).  but he was saying it should be sooner and that they should launch with 1 or 2 raids for engame rushers and with the slow pace (even though some will find ways to blow through the levels im sure, they always do)  but bassically just make sure it works well and looks good (already looks good IMO) and no idea on how it plays. but i brought up vanguard, which was good and bad for me because while yes i loved it and it was not complete as did many who played that game, it launched unfinished and it was ok IMO, but in the long term it was bad because the bugs and updates caught up with the playerbase and eventually people started leaving.  So i guess we were both right on the VG thing but my view is while yes i would probobly still be playing it, it died because it just wasnt ready to be launched.  and thats kind of where this post came into play.  Its not me trying to justify VR to an early release its just a question on how people feel about it.

    • 520 posts
    January 6, 2020 3:54 PM PST

    They are not at the stage yet where part of the world is completely playable. As far as I remember they've said something like: When Project Fearthale will be completed, they'll be at a point where most crucial systems will be in place and builing the rest of the World will be much faster (correct me if I'm wrong though). So it's not just a matter of adding zones, quests and mobs at this point - far from it.

    • 159 posts
    January 6, 2020 4:11 PM PST

    IMHO the way VR has handled things. If they did release the game unfinished with the fan base being already angry over other issues it would be the death of Pantheon. Again that is just my humble opinion. I want the game to be fully finish and functional.  

    I want this game to succeed because I desire to play it with my boys. I want to share with them an old school MMORPG and I feel Pantheon is my only hope at this time to be able to share that experience with them. I do feel like VR takes 3 steps forward and 2 steps back on a regular basis showing to much indecisveness on their behalf.

    Patience is a virtue. It is a good quality to have. However even patience has its limits. These limits very base upon each individual. So I'll reiterate that yes I want the game to be finish, but I'm NOT one of these people that will wait forever. I'm not going to mindlessly jump onto the bandwagon that " if VR needs forever to take forever". 

     

    I have heard the same tired out excuses being repeatedly used. This issue keeps getting pulled up because people want results and their patiences is running thin. People don't want to debate how long the game has actually been in development, they don't want to see the same classess repeatedly being showed off, they don't want to hear we are a small company and these games take a long time to finish when it has already been a long time. We want results.  VR went dark to just work on " Project Faerthal" for approximately a year before moving to the videos twice a month something like 4 months ago and we are yet to see "Project Faerthal".  

    So with all that said I can fully understand why people keep bringing up this issue and why people's patiences is running thin.

    • 93 posts
    January 6, 2020 5:23 PM PST

    I want the game to succeed. If it takes decades to release then I suppose that is what it takes. I have a lot of older friends, some of which died while waiting for this game to release. I hope that I will still be alive to see it release.

    • 1247 posts
    January 6, 2020 5:55 PM PST

    halflingwarrior said:

    I want the game to succeed. If it takes decades to release then I suppose that is what it takes. I have a lot of older friends, some of which died while waiting for this game to release. I hope that I will still be alive to see it release.

    Hi Halflingwarrior. I am truly sorry for your loss. :( There is an old friend of mine from back in the day who I have been concerned about as well. Your concern is well noted - thanks. 


    This post was edited by Syrif at January 6, 2020 5:58 PM PST
    • 93 posts
    January 6, 2020 6:31 PM PST

    Syrif said:

    Hi Halflingwarrior. I am truly sorry for your loss. :( There is an old friend of mine from back in the day who I have been concerned about as well. Your concern is well noted - thanks. 

     

    We press forward! For Brad.

    • 370 posts
    January 6, 2020 10:55 PM PST

    Warhammer Online was a great example of a game that was launched unfinished and it ultimately failed. The people who would be accepting of an unfinished product are likely already pledged into Alpha and Beta so I don't see it as even a necessary situation. 

    • 768 posts
    January 7, 2020 10:40 AM PST

     

    It's not acceptable to provide a product that does not fulfill the expectations of the majority of their target costumers.

    You can't expect costumers to continue paying or encourage others to purchase the game if it's just not finished.

    I'd agree with following statements;

    Celandor: What you are asking is like telling an artist to hang their work in the gallery half-finished and suggest they "can always splash some more paint on later".  Neither the customer nor the artist is going to be comfortable with that arrangement.

    HemLockReaper: You only have one shot to impress.

    The list of failed games that launched prematurely are omnipresent, I can only hope that VR is not in a hurry to be on that same list.

     

    • 1399 posts
    January 8, 2020 8:22 AM PST

    I don't want my truck delivered unpainted.

    I don't want to buy a shirt half sewn.

    I don't want to order a sandwich and have the lettuce show up on the side after I'm halfway through the rest.

    My expectations for Pantheon are about the same.

    • 1281 posts
    January 8, 2020 8:35 AM PST

    In MMO's, you have be right at launch or you are doomed.

    Can anyone give an example of an MMO that sucked at first but over time gained more players as problems were fixed? I can't think of one.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at January 8, 2020 8:35 AM PST
    • 370 posts
    January 8, 2020 9:57 PM PST

    bigdogchris said:

    In MMO's, you have be right at launch or you are doomed.

    Can anyone give an example of an MMO that sucked at first but over time gained more players as problems were fixed? I can't think of one.

     

    FF14 but I wouldn't call it a recipe for success.