OCastitatisLilium said:
Now, we don't have to go that far as to lose items within, but what if the bag had a chance to be punctured or torn? if not that, then how about some way to give it a chance to have it lose it's weight reduction properties? That way, even if they are on farm status, peopel would be a little hesitant on eithe spending money on buying them from players or even making them. If they are crafted, very rare items would be needed to make them, if the bag is torn, then it takes thos crafting materials with it once it's no good? I mean, granted I would be the first to rage at the loss of my weight reduction bag, but I also understand how games work and how players work as well lol.
What is the lowest drop rate that we could make for something like that, one that would make it super rare, but not impossible to get? .... Though eventually lesser slotted bags would become useless as well with expansions and even introductions of more slotted bags...though I get it, this would definitely speed that up some.
A delayed response to your original reply there, @OCastitatisLilium. If one really has a long ponder about the theory of rarity over time, everything becomes less rare and less valueable. But that's not the discussion at hand, so I won't go into that further. What you're suggesting there is already a good compromis to prolong the rarity and the value of those special bags. So yeah, that would certainly help in preventing these bags to become common goods in short period after discovery.
To allow bags to get damaged is also an entirely different topic where gear endurance or wear and tear comes into play. I will certainly not get into it here as there are massive threads on that as well. Trying to construct a design where only those specific bags or bags in general get broken or ripped seems a stretch too far for me. A magical weight reduction bag might vanish if X amount of items have been retrieved from that bag. The items that were still present in those bags, could go directly to overflow or into open slots in other bags present at the time. With the weight of those items weighing down on the player ones again. So similar to poisons or potions, when it's used up it will dissappear, only the consequence of the bag dissappearing is different as the items are not lost themselves. It seems too punishing to me to have those vanish with the bag itself.
One could indeed say that smaller bags in general become redudant as expansions and character grows, since bags might become bigger and bigger.
Let's say the availability or access to the bags is linked to character requirements. Such as level or stat requirements; If you're level X than you can carrry/equip bags made from tier X. Or if you have stat Y to a certain amount + stat Z, then you're able to use bags of tier X. What this means is, that bags will keep their value longer untill the player grows out of them, but the sell value of the bag remains since players lower then themselves can still buy and use those bags if they meet the requirements. (Simple example; a player of level 20 can carry level 20 bags. These have 20 slots. A player of level 10 can carry level 10 bags with 10 slots. As the level 20 player grows to 21 or 30, they can now equip bigger bags of that level, those ones provide even more slots 20+. The level 21+ player can sell their old bags to a level 10+ player etc.)
Yes, this is a hard fix. But it actually allows item identity retention, prolongs the value of those bags for the player themselves. The influences here are the pace that people level up through the tiers as it will impact how long the bags of tier X are in use, in the game by the character itself before being sold. This scenario also gives crafters that make those bags a way out of the tunnel. As otherwise those crafters would only be selling their biggest bags and no longer the previous versions of those bags. Now they can still craft and sell smaller bags if they choose to, as there still is a market for it. (Seeing that not every player will try and auction every item they ever hold on them, but just sell it to nearest vendor and be done with it.)
I agree with disposalists comments above.
Adding to what was said there - the idea of a 60 slot bag is similar to the attacks on the suggestion, unaccompanied by analysis or reasoning. Both are essentially meaningless. Note I do not say silly or wrong and no criticism is intended - by meaningless I mean almost totally devoid of the context necessary to decide how bags should work.
Do we know how weight or encumbrance will work in Pantheon? Not really, no.
Do we know how stacking will work in Pantheon - what items will stack and how high the stacking will get? Not really, no.
Do we know whether there will be collectibles, and if there are whether they will go in normal inventory or a separate collectible management panel? We do not.
Do we know how arrows or bolts or throwing weapons will be handled in terms of inventory or even if they will need to be stored and managed - we do not.
Do we know if there will be shared storage or how it will work - no.
Do we know if there will be brokers and, if there are, whether a bag will be needed to put sellable items into as in EQ2? Nope.
How in the name of all Gods of Terminus can anyone, myself included, comment in any meaningful way on the topic at this time? We cannot. If Pantheon's inventory management works like EQ in all respects (and it will not and should not) bags that large are inappropriate. If Pantheon works like EQ2 in all respects (and it will not and should not) the answer may well be otherwise.
Inventory space is always an important decision in games.
But saying 10 slots is better than 40 slots or 90 slots is better is a ludicrous assumption without knowing all the facts.
Many factors come into play such as crafting. Are crafting materials harvested ? If so, is it sparesely harvested (all trees give 1 lumber) or is it much more quantity and variety (1 tree gives 6 lumber, 3 bark, 4 berries and a pinecone). This applies to loot as well, killing a goblin could give 0-1 items or it could give 8-10 items or anywhere in between.
Basically what I am saying is inventory should be relative to gathering, harvesting, looting, etc etc.
Barin999 said:A delayed response to your original reply there, @OCastitatisLilium. If one really has a long ponder about the theory of rarity over time, everything becomes less rare and less valueable. But that's not the discussion at hand, so I won't go into that further. What you're suggesting there is already a good compromis to prolong the rarity and the value of those special bags. So yeah, that would certainly help in preventing these bags to become common goods in short period after discovery.
To allow bags to get damaged is also an entirely different topic where gear endurance or wear and tear comes into play. I will certainly not get into it here as there are massive threads on that as well. Trying to construct a design where only those specific bags or bags in general get broken or ripped seems a stretch too far for me. A magical weight reduction bag might vanish if X amount of items have been retrieved from that bag. The items that were still present in those bags, could go directly to overflow or into open slots in other bags present at the time. With the weight of those items weighing down on the player ones again. So similar to poisons or potions, when it's used up it will dissappear, only the consequence of the bag dissappearing is different as the items are not lost themselves. It seems too punishing to me to have those vanish with the bag itself.
One could indeed say that smaller bags in general become redudant as expansions and character grows, since bags might become bigger and bigger.
Let's say the availability or access to the bags is linked to character requirements. Such as level or stat requirements; If you're level X than you can carrry/equip bags made from tier X. Or if you have stat Y to a certain amount + stat Z, then you're able to use bags of tier X. What this means is, that bags will keep their value longer untill the player grows out of them, but the sell value of the bag remains since players lower then themselves can still buy and use those bags if they meet the requirements. (Simple example; a player of level 20 can carry level 20 bags. These have 20 slots. A player of level 10 can carry level 10 bags with 10 slots. As the level 20 player grows to 21 or 30, they can now equip bigger bags of that level, those ones provide even more slots 20+. The level 21+ player can sell their old bags to a level 10+ player etc.)
Yes, this is a hard fix. But it actually allows item identity retention, prolongs the value of those bags for the player themselves. The influences here are the pace that people level up through the tiers as it will impact how long the bags of tier X are in use, in the game by the character itself before being sold. This scenario also gives crafters that make those bags a way out of the tunnel. As otherwise those crafters would only be selling their biggest bags and no longer the previous versions of those bags. Now they can still craft and sell smaller bags if they choose to, as there still is a market for it. (Seeing that not every player will try and auction every item they ever hold on them, but just sell it to nearest vendor and be done with it.)
Yeah, sorry, it was rather late when I posted that, rereading my second comment is just an elaboration to the first and really only repeated what I had tried to convey in the first lol! Again, I apologize for that. I'm a little tired now honestly, so forgive me if I ramble.
I see what you are saying and, I don't mind hard fixes for things, as sometimes they are the only fix. As for the usability of the bag of holding, no longer being a bag of holding or even existing once a certain amount of items have been withdrawn from them is a good idea too, and having them then take up room in a person's inventory once again is a good idea for that. I can see where having just that bag be prone to damage of any sort could lead to the question of why the other bags don't suffer the same fate? It is stretching it as you have said somewhat, but I agree with the whole it's no good after x amount of items are taken out of it.
As for the other bags being fixed to certain levels...again I know it's a hard fix and while I'm leery about it, I can see that where it does still keep the value of the smaller bags as well as give value to the larger bags and such. Ultimately I want to see what VR does with bags and bags of holding/weight reduction bags, whichever name they go by lol. There are a few games that have them and each have implemented them slightly differently.
Riahuf22 said:Well i guess if i have to explain it, if you have 60 slot bags and have 6 bag spaces that means you have 360 slots worth of bag space which means you never have to go to a selling place or anything like that for a really long time, like probably days worth, which is where lower bag space is more importnt becuase it allows you actually have to manage your bag space and not simply just pick up everything and days on end and than finally have to sell.
So, your intention was to limit player inventory size. I have no problem with that. Practically speaking, no game could allow infinite storage capacity so of course there will be a limit.
My concern was that until we know how many bags we will be able to put into our inventory, discussion of the "right size" of individual bags is meaningless. And my personal preference is that HOWEVER many total inventory slots we are allowed, I'd rather have them in a few large bags than many smaller bags. If they only give us one bag, I hope it has 100 slots in it.
I'd also point out the ongoing debate about how slow travel should be. If I have to spend an hour traveling to a vendor to sell and then returning, for every hour I spend at my favorite grinding spot, I'm going to have a serious problem with that. As a newbie? no, that's the breaks. As a level 30? Darn right.
I'd also point out the few times the Dev's have talked about stats on gear and said they hope to avoid a BiS for every slot on every char. How they hope we'll have multiple items of gear that we equip based on the specific area/mobs we are going to fight. From which I gather that we might regularly carry around a lot of gear -as opposed to loot.
I get that you want to see crafted bags from professions and I agree with this. However, I think that overall bag size is something that is going to be more dependent on multiple factors within the game such as the need for food, raid consumables, mount whistles (possibly). lighting sources (such as light stones, torches, etc), regent needs for buffs/specific spells, and available banking space.
I think that 60 slot bags are a bit much, or in the interest of fairness, something that only bank alts would need access to. I don't think bags slots this large really make sense for the average adventurer.
I think that this topic is way too premature to discuss. I am sure that certain professions will have the ability to craft bags, however, bag size is still something that has soo many unknown variables tied to it at this point.
disposalist said:[...] (image a hiker with 10 backpacks strapped on, even empty, [...]
Yes.
Joppa/Devs, pay no attention to the crowds behind the curtain. As you Fretted over what do do with clickies while keeping only one hot bar so as to allow more screenspace to see the world so please keep applying that thinking to bag space and such. Nice job on the Class specific heads-up displays btw- (thats what I'm calling it) and thanks for the nice long dev stream! i'm suprised no long comments on that...
Commnity behind the curtain: maybe we need to think about bag space obliquely , although I have come to learn the pleasure of getting special bags like weight reduction bags, even collecting them. There is a sense of accomplishment and well-traveledness that comes with saying you carry nothing but WR bags or specialty items, like having armor or weapons that are recognized as unique.
Maybe in the UI itself? there's alot of open real estate in the middle of the inventory screen, inside the armor border. maybe something put in there that makes sense? a square for certain food and drink,like a Bota bag with a pouch for jerky or trailmix ONLY. Regular food that sustains for a while you need to make or get at an inn.
a square for a Witcher-like Bandolier that can hold 2-4 potions or acclimation goodies? Then the inventory space can be modelled after a Rucksak where you can put smaller bags inside to hold things maybe 4 slots that can be expanded to 6 if you get a bigger one. Get a frame and that adds overall weight reduction and allows the bedroll to be carried outside the bag freeing up more space. Not that it has to follow sophisticated Northern European mountain climbing hiking models but parts could be used for inspiration to keep it minimalist?
I think most of us scoffed at the mention of 60 slot bags that played EQ, but as many have mentioned until we know what is required to be carried by players bag size is impossible to gauge. I'm hoping that we don't have to hold completed keys to dungeons in our inventory, I'd rather it go to a magical key ring that just shows under character, but if we are going to have to carry keys, reagents, food, water, etc. bag size is going to vary. I like the idea of crafter specific bags, I don't see any reason not to add them.
I also think its best to consider inventory bloat now. Bag size increases should atleast be outlines for a few years following the launch for expansions, as most things should, so that you can start at the proper point and not code yourself into a hole down the road.
dorotea said:I agree with disposalists comments above.
Adding to what was said there - the idea of a 60 slot bag is similar to the attacks on the suggestion, unaccompanied by analysis or reasoning. Both are essentially meaningless. Note I do not say silly or wrong and no criticism is intended - by meaningless I mean almost totally devoid of the context necessary to decide how bags should work.
Do we know how weight or encumbrance will work in Pantheon? Not really, no.
Do we know how stacking will work in Pantheon - what items will stack and how high the stacking will get? Not really, no.
Do we know whether there will be collectibles, and if there are whether they will go in normal inventory or a separate collectible management panel? We do not.
Do we know how arrows or bolts or throwing weapons will be handled in terms of inventory or even if they will need to be stored and managed - we do not.
Do we know if there will be shared storage or how it will work - no.
Do we know if there will be brokers and, if there are, whether a bag will be needed to put sellable items into as in EQ2? Nope.
How in the name of all Gods of Terminus can anyone, myself included, comment in any meaningful way on the topic at this time? We cannot. If Pantheon's inventory management works like EQ in all respects (and it will not and should not) bags that large are inappropriate. If Pantheon works like EQ2 in all respects (and it will not and should not) the answer may well be otherwise.
Well honestly we do, we've seen just on the last stream that Saicred picked up many weapons and armor and they all took up one slot and if gear that is that big only takes up one slot than everything else is as well, granted some bags might have a item size restriction i have no idea but as for how inventory takes up space in bags we already know this answer, which it shouldn't of been a surspirse to anyone, so yes 60 slot is way to much, it almost completely trivializes the need of bag space in general, which is something we definately don't want, and as for all those other items you mentioned if you do have to manage them that doesn't naturally mean you make the bag space bigger, it means you have to manaage your bag space better than before you got/purchased those items, so i guess you can say we were being negative towards the idea of 60 slot bags, but i don't think their is anyway possible you could convince anyone that 60 slot bags wouldn't completely trivialize a core part of any mmorpg, and if you were going to go this route you might as well make bag space unlimited and call it a day, which obviously no one wants that here.
And whats with this inventory management will not be like EQ lol, managing inventory space in eq is just like wow, its simply inventory management and that it, it had nothing to do with everquest itself, so why are we trying to make something that is so simply and try to make it something else, just let bags be bags, and also if the game makes it to where you need 30 different things in your bag to be an efficent player (ammo, potions, clickies, etc.) than i can say that woud be a bit of a bummer, at the beginning anyway, and if that is why you think we might need more than 14 slot bags than i think we have notihng to worry about.
Slots vs Volume vs Item size
One of the primary reasons people want 60 slot bags is to store trade skill and quest items that they want to use at a later date. While carrying out 60 suites of armor would be nice if that bag was not 100% weight reducing you would already run out of carrying capacity before you reached 60.
Something that would be a lot more dynamic, drive bag choice, and would still impose some pretty rigorous choices on what to pick up (bank storage is a different animal) would be normalizing all bags based on the number of tiny objects that a bag can hold.
The basic breakdown is each item size is 8 times larger than the previous and for purposes of filling a bag stacking items will each take their slot but will be stacked in the UI for management reasons. The 4-8 main inventory slots are all “giant sized” and cannot be subdivided into smaller slots. They are only intended (once you get a few bags) for holding giant items which will be specific world objects intended to be hard to move and bags.
A tiny object will take 1 volume unit (as all volumes are normalized to tiny objects). A small 8, medium 64, large 512. Giant objects will effectively be 4096 and will never fit in player carry-able bags though they can move a few of them in their prime inventory slots (now a wagon or a donkey might have giant inventory slots). For reference I would consider a tiny object to be 1cm cube or in other words 1 ml.
Bag UIs can be written to have a ###/#### filled number and collapse the objects into the fewest number of slots to show all unique items without adding much UI bloat. If most of the rare crafting ingredients are tiny or small you can stuff many unique items into a standard bag though the number of large items will still be limited to just a couple in even the largest of bags. Keep in mind that a stack of 100 of the same tiny objects will consume 100 inventory units of the bag capacity but the back UI will only show a single stack.
As far as weight reduction goes I find that changing or also having “buoyancy” makes them more interesting, especially if there is a trade off between limited weight negation and total capacity. Basically going to make a bag then attach cylinders of helium inside the bag, now the first 5 kg that I put in the bag does not weight me down but I lost 128 inventory volume over a standard bag. It gets more complicated when you start working in space and gravimetric magic but you get the idea.
Individual bags could each have their own weight capacity as well as total volume to make further differentiations between NPC sold, looted, simple crafted, advanced crafted and quested inventory objects. Bank Vaults could be sold by the unit volume and filled regardless of the weight or number of items so long as the volume stays below the limit. Shipping bank vault boxes from one bank to another might have weight cost and time adjustments.
Trasak said:Slots vs Volume vs Item size
One of the primary reasons people want 60 slot bags is to store trade skill and quest items that they want to use at a later date. While carrying out 60 suites of armor would be nice if that bag was not 100% weight reducing you would already run out of carrying capacity before you reached 60.
Something that would be a lot more dynamic, drive bag choice, and would still impose some pretty rigorous choices on what to pick up (bank storage is a different animal) would be normalizing all bags based on the number of tiny objects that a bag can hold.
The basic breakdown is each item size is 8 times larger than the previous and for purposes of filling a bag stacking items will each take their slot but will be stacked in the UI for management reasons. The 4-8 main inventory slots are all “giant sized” and cannot be subdivided into smaller slots. They are only intended (once you get a few bags) for holding giant items which will be specific world objects intended to be hard to move and bags.
A tiny object will take 1 volume unit (as all volumes are normalized to tiny objects). A small 8, medium 64, large 512. Giant objects will effectively be 4096 and will never fit in player carry-able bags though they can move a few of them in their prime inventory slots (now a wagon or a donkey might have giant inventory slots). For reference I would consider a tiny object to be 1cm cube or in other words 1 ml.
Bag UIs can be written to have a ###/#### filled number and collapse the objects into the fewest number of slots to show all unique items without adding much UI bloat. If most of the rare crafting ingredients are tiny or small you can stuff many unique items into a standard bag though the number of large items will still be limited to just a couple in even the largest of bags. Keep in mind that a stack of 100 of the same tiny objects will consume 100 inventory units of the bag capacity but the back UI will only show a single stack.
As far as weight reduction goes I find that changing or also having “buoyancy” makes them more interesting, especially if there is a trade off between limited weight negation and total capacity. Basically going to make a bag then attach cylinders of helium inside the bag, now the first 5 kg that I put in the bag does not weight me down but I lost 128 inventory volume over a standard bag. It gets more complicated when you start working in space and gravimetric magic but you get the idea.
Individual bags could each have their own weight capacity as well as total volume to make further differentiations between NPC sold, looted, simple crafted, advanced crafted and quested inventory objects. Bank Vaults could be sold by the unit volume and filled regardless of the weight or number of items so long as the volume stays below the limit. Shipping bank vault boxes from one bank to another might have weight cost and time adjustments.
I get all this, but even if your a crafter that also doesn't really mean we need 60 slot bags as it still trivilizes both bag management and tradeskilling at the same time, or anything else that requirs abg space for that matter, and if it were up to me if you truly wanted to overcome this particular scenario, simply make a wagon like you said, but i would do it with a twist, like if your collecting herbs for alchemy and such you cant put ore in it or something like this, now i guess if people wouldn't like that i could understand but ultimately that wagon inventory is essentially free inventory and i believe it should have a limit of what you can put in it, like if you put gear in their only gear it will hold, if you put herbs for than it will hold that, etc, etc. of course much like us it should also have a weight limit and essentially bag space as well for you cant put in 100 stacks of herbs or armor, i would probably make it something like 16, and agian since even though it is limited and also isn't affectively hurting you in anyway and it should be listed as a positive that something like this is even in the game if it does so ultimately it will help you with the current tasks you have in mind, you just have to remember to sort it out before you decide to do something else, which again isn't a bad thing either.
Or you can amke it to where the wagon can increasely increase in size and put whatever you want in it, but since you can the bag size that we can hold simply doesn't grow as progressively, since the wagon would be out main carrier of items, which would also make inventory management always be part of our game, especially inside of dungeons and such, but once were done and we can pull out our wagon again and dump off some tradeables and go back in if we wished, but obviously this would mean we would have to leave the dungeon first since i believe something liek this shouldn't be able to be used inside areas that are considered dungeons or high end content, to prevent an abuse of such an feature.
Plus now that i think about it, it makes a lot more sense to have Wagon sizes increase in size or simply durability, than to put a 60 slot bag on someones back, so even in this regard it kind of makes sense, and i almost to a point knockout 2 birds with one stone as inventory is a way became easier to manage and it also can be kept and not have to travel to the bank everytime your inventory get full for as long your wagon isn't full as well. I simply have only taken away the fact you can't use it inside dungeons/high end content(nothing says you can't use it beforehand).
@Riahuf
Its less a matter of number of individual items as it is item size. Should an entire ring mail coat take the same number of slots as a single silver ring? It also might take 100 brick sized chunks of ferrous bearing rock to smelt a single 10kg bar of iron.
I had pondered the idea of having an "herb bag" and other similar objects that would auto have their crafting items loot to it and the crafting stations would be able to access them directly. The crafting bag would take up a slot in your prime inventory but would more act as a list with weight rather than a working bag. As you said they would be specific in what types of items they can contain and would have appropriate capacity. The wagon I was referring to would be something you rent from a teamsters depot and need to pilot and protect to a specific location to load/unload. Your ore would need to be picked up almost by the ton to get any real amount of smelted metal so a heavy wagon is the only thing that makes sense. The same would be true for timber when house and ships get added in. A hunter will want to have a pack mule for the hides as realistically most hides are bloody (pun intended) cumbersome. Field dressing poles, fish baskets, bales of harvested textile plants in addition to herb pouches, ore and timber wagons and trapper mules are all different harvesting containers that could be implements.
In terms of crafting complexity only having 64 unique items (8 bag slots with 8 bags) is really limiting. You are forced to have very few base item types with no quality variation to even begin to have a functioning crafting system. Now add in if you want to make crafting rewarding and balanced vs adventuring you really want to have an entire array of common, uncommon, rare, mythic and artifact level of material choices. Whether or not the crafting system is a template that you mix and match materials to get different final products or 120 different recipes you need to have lots and lots of unique ingredients and that’s just for one craft. Each craft will likely share a group of objects used in multiple crafts and a group that are only for that specific craft. The total number of unique crafting materials across all crafts can easily end up being in the 10,000s if you include rarity and quality into the possible iterations.
Crafting should be about crafting and not playing Towers of Hanoi with your inventories around the planet to make sure you have enough slots open to actually craft a complex item.
Starwars Galaxies had one of the best and least irritating inventories in any MMO I have ever played. Everquest was possibly the worst both in form and function.
P.S. Wagons and mounts should always be persistent and vulnerable in my opinion. If you can just "put away" your wagon when you get to a dungeon then they system breaks down. For that matter vehicles and mounts/loot carriers should never be allowed in dungeons. That would just get so campy.
Trasak said:@Riahuf
Its less a matter of number of individual items as it is item size. Should an entire ring mail coat take the same number of slots as a single silver ring? It also might take 100 brick sized chunks of ferrous bearing rock to smelt a single 10kg bar of iron.
I had pondered the idea of having an "herb bag" and other similar objects that would auto have their crafting items loot to it and the crafting stations would be able to access them directly. The crafting bag would take up a slot in your prime inventory but would more act as a list with weight rather than a working bag. As you said they would be specific in what types of items they can contain and would have appropriate capacity. The wagon I was referring to would be something you rent from a teamsters depot and need to pilot and protect to a specific location to load/unload. Your ore would need to be picked up almost by the ton to get any real amount of smelted metal so a heavy wagon is the only thing that makes sense. The same would be true for timber when house and ships get added in. A hunter will want to have a pack mule for the hides as realistically most hides are bloody (pun intended) cumbersome. Field dressing poles, fish baskets, bales of harvested textile plants in addition to herb pouches, ore and timber wagons and trapper mules are all different harvesting containers that could be implements.
In terms of crafting complexity only having 64 unique items (8 bag slots with 8 bags) is really limiting. You are forced to have very few base item types with no quality variation to even begin to have a functioning crafting system. Now add in if you want to make crafting rewarding and balanced vs adventuring you really want to have an entire array of common, uncommon, rare, mythic and artifact level of material choices. Whether or not the crafting system is a template that you mix and match materials to get different final products or 120 different recipes you need to have lots and lots of unique ingredients and that’s just for one craft. Each craft will likely share a group of objects used in multiple crafts and a group that are only for that specific craft. The total number of unique crafting materials across all crafts can easily end up being in the 10,000s if you include rarity and quality into the possible iterations.
Crafting should be about crafting and not playing Towers of Hanoi with your inventories around the planet to make sure you have enough slots open to actually craft a complex item.
Starwars Galaxies had one of the best and least irritating inventories in any MMO I have ever played. Everquest was possibly the worst both in form and function.
P.S. Wagons and mounts should always be persistent and vulnerable in my opinion. If you can just "put away" your wagon when you get to a dungeon then they system breaks down. For that matter vehicles and mounts/loot carriers should never be allowed in dungeons. That would just get so campy.
Well to be fair if you opened up all your bag space to slot 64 slots of herbs that I'm sure will either be 10-20 than that easily means you could effectively loot 640-1280 herbs, so that whole arugment doesn't really mean anything to me, plus with wagons I keep the personal inventory small so you can't camp for long hours, i mentioned this specifically to prevent such a behavior, as if the dungeon is highly contested camps would constantly be checked and if you leave to use your wagon you also leave the camp with a chance to lose it completely, that is the choice you choose to use your wagon.
And again i have actually handed you a pretty good feature, as granted your personal inventory space might be limited which by the way to me and i see many others say that is a good thing, i have also gave you a feature that makes your inventory also has a way to make it feel like it is as limiting as it is without it, I';m just giving the wagon a bigger portion of your inventory space and not to your yourself, and lets be honest 64 slots would be way more than enough to craft any item you would ever want to make.
lets say you stay at 64 slots but you can acquire a 30 slot wagon you effectively have 94 slots, now to me that is alot, but I'm sure many would just say why not just have me hold 94 slots on my personal inventory and i would easily say becuase you shouldn't need to hold 94 slots of inventory, there wouldn't be a single agrument you could possibly come up with i would ever agree to such a thing that you actually need 94 slots, you honestly would have a hard time having me understand you need 64 slots, but i would take 64 insteas of 94 anyday, but if there was a feature that made it to where you could only hold 64 slots but had a wagon that could extend your inventory to 94 but can only be summoned in safe zones or out of dungeons i would be okay with it.
I also noticed you said that they should be wagons and mounts should also be suspectible of attack in a sense, i don't believe so, that honestly would other stop most people from ever wanted to get them ever, especially if you can't bring them with you inside fo dungeons and such which is something i wouldn't want, so to me they can be attack if you are on them, or maybe even near them and if attacked enough times they either break down or run away, they simply just go on a cooldown, but i don't think they should stay presistent throughtout the world or you'll see nothing but a bunch of mounts and wagons everywhere and would be able to enjoy the enviroment that was put thier and not a feature covering everything up.
((Well honestly we do, we've seen just on the last stream that Saicred picked up many weapons and armor and they all took up one slot and if gear that is that big only takes up one slot than everything else is as well, granted some bags might have a item size restriction i have no idea but as for how inventory takes up space in bags we already know this answer, which it shouldn't of been a surspirse to anyone, so yes 60 slot is way to much, it almost completely trivializes the need of bag space in general, which is something we definately don't want, and as for all those other items you mentioned if you do have to manage them that doesn't naturally mean you make the bag space bigger, it means you have to manaage your bag space better than before you got/purchased those items, so i guess you can say we were being negative towards the idea of 60 slot bags, but i don't think their is anyway possible you could convince anyone that 60 slot bags wouldn't completely trivialize a core part of any mmorpg, and if you were going to go this route you might as well make bag space unlimited and call it a day, which obviously no one wants that here.))
I don't take anything shown in a prealpha stream that was focusing on other aspects of the game as very definitive on how inventory will be managed - and issues of weight and encumbrance have far less to do with how many slots a bag should hold than issues of stacking and of how many items a character will actually need in personal inventory in order to fight, harvest or craft effectively. Nor do I consider micromanagement of inventories a core part of any MMO. Nor do I think 60 slot bags would "completely trivialize" anything - games like EQ2 which have even larger bags have strengths and weaknesses but almost no one - but you - would judge them based on bag size. And saying there is no way I could persuade anyone that a common feature of many MMOs isn't totally wrong simply boggles the mind.
You may be right you may be wrong on bag size. I never disagreed with you I merely said it is too early to judge.
((And whats with this inventory management will not be like EQ lol, managing inventory space in eq is just like wow, its simply inventory management and that it, it had nothing to do with everquest itself, so why are we trying to make something that is so simply and try to make it something else, just let bags be bags, and also if the game makes it to where you need 30 different things in your bag to be an efficent player (ammo, potions, clickies, etc.) than i can say that woud be a bit of a bummer, at the beginning anyway, and if that is why you think we might need more than 14 slot bags than i think we have notihng to worry about))
And managing bags in EQ and WoW had resemblances to Yserbius and Ultima Online and Asherons Call and Age of Conan and ..... What of it? I said that the Pantheon system will not be like that of EQ in all respects. This is manifestly and self-evidently true unless you want to assume that VR is unable or unwilling to take advanatge of so much as one single improvement in technology and knowledge since 1999 or is so lacking in ideas and competance that they cannot improve on one single thing in a 20 year old game's inventory system. I choose to make none of these assumptions. If any of them is correct we have worse problems than bag size.
Raw materials only make up a sub portion of the unique items you interact with typically when crafting. There are typically subcombines, persistent tools, crafting focused equipment, crafting stations and finished products. On top of that most crafters will still be adventurers so they will need to store their adventuring gear somewhere while they craft. If a character only has a total of 128 slots between their bank and personal inventory that is just not going to leave much room for unique crafting combinations on top of the inventory spaces needed for the crafting mini game to function and everything would need to be crafted on demand as keeping stock of crafted items will be basically out of the question.
It changes a little bit if we have basically unlimited crafting material storage in a personal lockbox at your local crafting guild and the crafting station links directly to it and none of the crafting minigames require inventory space to function. You would still need to harvest with your standard limited adventuring inventory and drop the items off at your lock box. The mechanic could even be just a token credit system where you turn in items to the crafting guild and gain credits then when you go to craft you can spend your credits to use the guilds resources but then you need to get into material access and npc inventories which adds an entire extra layer though that’s not necessarily a negative.
Either way I do think there could/should be some relationship between item size and number of slots that a crafted bag can hold. A bag designed for large items could have 4 slots and accept up to large while a bag for small items only could have as many as say 16. Large items would never stack, medium items can stack up to 5, small 20 and tiny 100. Depending on where you are going you might want a mix of different bag types or all of one type.
Just a couple of quick drive-by things:
1) No matter how much inventory space we have, it will *never* be enough for everyone. There will always be someone who somehow fills up their space, even if they have room for thousands of items in their inventory.
2) Rather than worry about the amount of space we have right now, we should be worrying about how we use that space. Does anyone really *want* to try and juggle dozens of pieces of resist gear in their bags so that you can equip the exact right thing at the exact right time for the exact right fight? And if you do, did you ever play EQ2 in its early days before they streamlined their resists to try and stop that madness?
3) In crafting, if you need massive amounts of everything you use just to make a few items - why? Isn't there potentially a better way to do things?
4) If you kill a spiderling in a field, and loot spider legs, a spider eye, a poison gland, and spider silk - do all of them have actual useful purposes? Or are they just there for you to sell to a vendor? And if you're selling them to a vendor, why does that vendor even want them? Why can't you use them for the same purpose as he does? For that matter, if they all have the same purpose, why does the game need all of them? What experience does that drive for players other than inventory management?
5) If you're fighting bandits and stripping the ones you defeat of their weapons and armor, what are you going to do with those items? Sell them to the same vendor everyone else is selling them to? (He must be selling them right back to the bandits since more of them keep appearing - talk about war profiteering taken to a new level.) Or are you going to salvage them for crafting resources? How many of those resources do you actually need? How many do they provide?
I think that designing the right inventory system first requires us to understand where and how all items will be used within the game. If we put the cart before horse (almost literally), then the result will be things like drop rates that overwhelm inventory space, or players spending hours doing inventory management to try to somehow squeeze it all in. Neither of those is really very fun for players.
dorotea said:((Well honestly we do, we've seen just on the last stream that Saicred picked up many weapons and armor and they all took up one slot and if gear that is that big only takes up one slot than everything else is as well, granted some bags might have a item size restriction i have no idea but as for how inventory takes up space in bags we already know this answer, which it shouldn't of been a surspirse to anyone, so yes 60 slot is way to much, it almost completely trivializes the need of bag space in general, which is something we definately don't want, and as for all those other items you mentioned if you do have to manage them that doesn't naturally mean you make the bag space bigger, it means you have to manaage your bag space better than before you got/purchased those items, so i guess you can say we were being negative towards the idea of 60 slot bags, but i don't think their is anyway possible you could convince anyone that 60 slot bags wouldn't completely trivialize a core part of any mmorpg, and if you were going to go this route you might as well make bag space unlimited and call it a day, which obviously no one wants that here.))
I don't take anything shown in a prealpha stream that was focusing on other aspects of the game as very definitive on how inventory will be managed - and issues of weight and encumbrance have far less to do with how many slots a bag should hold than issues of stacking and of how many items a character will actually need in personal inventory in order to fight, harvest or craft effectively. Nor do I consider micromanagement of inventories a core part of any MMO. Nor do I think 60 slot bags would "completely trivialize" anything - games like EQ2 which have even larger bags have strengths and weaknesses but almost no one - but you - would judge them based on bag size. And saying there is no way I could persuade anyone that a common feature of many MMOs isn't totally wrong simply boggles the mind.
You may be right you may be wrong on bag size. I never disagreed with you I merely said it is too early to judge.
((And whats with this inventory management will not be like EQ lol, managing inventory space in eq is just like wow, its simply inventory management and that it, it had nothing to do with everquest itself, so why are we trying to make something that is so simply and try to make it something else, just let bags be bags, and also if the game makes it to where you need 30 different things in your bag to be an efficent player (ammo, potions, clickies, etc.) than i can say that woud be a bit of a bummer, at the beginning anyway, and if that is why you think we might need more than 14 slot bags than i think we have notihng to worry about))
And managing bags in EQ and WoW had resemblances to Yserbius and Ultima Online and Asherons Call and Age of Conan and ..... What of it? I said that the Pantheon system will not be like that of EQ in all respects. This is manifestly and self-evidently true unless you want to assume that VR is unable or unwilling to take advanatge of so much as one single improvement in technology and knowledge since 1999 or is so lacking in ideas and competance that they cannot improve on one single thing in a 20 year old game's inventory system. I choose to make none of these assumptions. If any of them is correct we have worse problems than bag size.
I just don't see why we would need to chnage something like inventory management in general, the concept of it is simple and i don't see why it needs to be more complicated than it needs to be, sometimes simple is ust better and when it comes to a player's inventory i think this fits the bill.
for instance if you have items the fill in 1-6 slots each but realize on average you fill in 2.5 slots and if you were going to go with a 40 slots maximum with everything taking up one slot and just decided to multiple 40 by 2.5 and get 100 slots you didn't really complish anything other than have items take up more slots and get more slots to midigate the fact you had items take up more slots, and that sounds redundant and unnesscary if you could of just had 40 slots have 40 items in them.
Whether we can carry one bag of 60 slots or 6 bags of 10 slots or above/below these numbers is quite irrelevant it serves the same purpose.
Weight reducing bags have been a part of many MMOs that has item weight in the game while this may be powerful, it usually also has its limits. Reduced slots or amount of such bags you can carry is usually the main restrictions and this could very much be part of Pantheon too.
What cannot happen is that a light armor wearer with less item weight from their gear ends up being able to carry more items than a heavy armor class, while I realize that this is quite much in line with reality - this is not real life and there's a limit to what is "fun". It would not being fun being a tank and not being able to loot because you exceed your weight capacity. Likewise it would not be fun to be a Wizard and see tanks capable of carrying half the world and some more because weight is related to a stat.
While I'm fine with weight as a whole as it makes you think, what to bring and what to loot - it should also be done in a way that's not detrimental to certain classes whilst other classes get a pass all because of gear they need to use. Classes regardless of gear types need to be on equal footing. Let's not return to an unfun system that makes you overweight just by wearing class appropriate gear. Though this is a topic for another debate and one that should take place during Alpha - at the latest Beta and not currently as there is no Weight system in place (I believe).
Regarding bags - they need to be made in a way that makes sense. You should not be able to carry everything, but it should not be a system in which you can't bring some much needed consumables, spare gear set (or similar) to the fights/harvesting sessions and not be able to loot either. As I said, there needs to be a balance between having to think, but also freedom to bring things along - I mean, no adventurer goes unprepared after all.
Ashreon said:
While I'm fine with weight as a whole as it makes you think, what to bring and what to loot - it should also be done in a way that's not detrimental to certain classes whilst other classes get a pass all because of gear they need to use. Classes regardless of gear types need to be on equal footing. Let's not return to an unfun system that makes you overweight just by wearing class appropriate gear. Though this is a topic for another debate and one that should take place during Alpha - at the latest Beta and not currently as there is no Weight system in place (I believe).
You are probably going to be in the minority on this opinion. I'm perfectly fine with being a caster with less strength that can caryy less weight who wears robes that weigh less than a warrior who has more stength but his armor wieghs more. Hell Monks in EQ pretty much couldn't loot anything. I know a few monks that would have friends in the group loot and carry their items and money for them.
EppE said:Ashreon said:
While I'm fine with weight as a whole as it makes you think, what to bring and what to loot - it should also be done in a way that's not detrimental to certain classes whilst other classes get a pass all because of gear they need to use. Classes regardless of gear types need to be on equal footing. Let's not return to an unfun system that makes you overweight just by wearing class appropriate gear. Though this is a topic for another debate and one that should take place during Alpha - at the latest Beta and not currently as there is no Weight system in place (I believe).
You are probably going to be in the minority on this opinion. I'm perfectly fine with being a caster with less strength that can caryy less weight who wears robes that weigh less than a warrior who has more stength but his armor wieghs more. Hell Monks in EQ pretty much couldn't loot anything. I know a few monks that would have friends in the group loot and carry their items and money for them.
Stats in Pantheon will be more universal - Wizards won't need to dump all points only in INT (though int still will give you mana and magic dmg), but many spells (probably most nukes) will be based on STR. So casters won't be gimped as much as in most games when it comes to loot. Besides I'd guess that there will be mounts with utility of additional bag space - we shall see.