One of the crafted items I would like to see are Crafted Bags. Starting out with the bacis 6 slot bag and working up to 60 slot. As you move to the larger bags wieght becomes a problem but I have heard of a crafter in a different realm that can enchant bags with X% wieght reduction. If this is true I must fine this crafter or where I can fine this enchantment. Who wants to hunt for this ITEM of Enchantment with me.
60 slots? hmm no, i mean I'm totally fine with bags and everything obviously but 60 slots is way too much, i would probably even say 20 is too much, so maybe like 14 slot bags is probably where I'm comfortable, and weight reduction, I'm okay with weight Reduction, nothing crazy but a little bit is okay.
I’d prefer on person bag slots limited to 9 (3x3) in conjunction with weight limits that include coin carried. Assuming a small item like a potion takes up 1 slot, and a large item like a two handed axe takes up 3 slots, this leaves enough to carry a couple weapons and a 2 or 3 small items, while not encouraging hoarder activity on the battlefield. I’d prefer what you choose to loot be meaningful.
These links might give you some more food for thought relating your topic;
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9305/crafter-s-roundtable-inventory-management
https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/crafters-roundtable-inventory-management.188/#post-2920
It makes little sense over time to add this kind of weight reduction bags into the game. Because it makes any bag that does not give the same effect drop in value drastically.
Those things will become on farm status if it's rare if it's sellable it will flatten out it's identity over time. Bringing it back to, yeah it's questionable design choice from the start.
Perhaps consider this: how about characters can get stronger and over time are able to carry more weight or weigthed bags. So with this scenario your own skill level or carrying ability (if there was such a thing) would limit your own options to carry bags and inventory in it. This feels more organically and it's not farmable, sellable. You just need to invest play time and grow stronger over X time. Looking at couple of years in, you'll have very high level players that are strong in many aspects and that would include being able to carry more. A starting player is not able to just buy their way into this inventory size even if they have a high level main character on the sidelines.
If you're designing 60 slot bags, you're looking at least at 240 items or items of equal weight amount of it. Pantheon is about chosing, strategy, tactics, benefits and impactful desicisions. And to my opinion inventory management should be and stay that as well over time. Yes, over time, you'd like to have enough space to allow for a playsession of at least a maximum of 6 hours (don't kill me on that number),...a long play session. But that doesn't mean, you need to design inventory /bags so that players can go out for days before needing a vendor. That shifts the focus and actually leads more towards the grind aspect of an mmo instead of "the living in a world" aspect of the world. You're just a toon with massive space, so grind your fill and dump after X days at a vendor. Also these massive bagspaces (or reduced weightstats on bags) indirectly lead to a drop in item value if/when the items coming from these bags are massively dumped on a broker system. The effect might seem small but all the little drops fill a bucket.
I'm sure we'll be able to craft bags. Weight reduction bags sounds like an excellent addition. As they sound quite powerful and useful, I'd hope they would require fairly high level skill and materials to craft. I'd also hope that they have many fewer slots than a normal bag, requiring the player to give up many normal inventory slots in return for a few slots that negate the burden of what is in them. Thus, it would be counterproductive for a rich player to simply make every one of his bags weight reducing ones.
Riahuf22 said:60 slots? hmm no, i mean I'm totally fine with bags and everything obviously but 60 slots is way too much, i would probably even say 20 is too much, so maybe like 14 slot bags is probably where I'm comfortable, and weight reduction, I'm okay with weight Reduction, nothing crazy but a little bit is okay.
I'm mystified by what criteria would be used to judge what is a 'good' size from what is a 'bad' size. Could you explain what value you see in fewer slots?
I'd like my char to have at least a few different bags in his inventory for the sake of easy organization. However for me, somewhere between 5 and 10 bags passes a point of diminishing returns where I'd rather have fewer, larger bags than simply have more bags. As far as an upper limit on bag size, as long as all the slots are visible at one time and I don't have to use a scroll bar to see them all, then the bigger the better for me.
Jothany said:Vandraad said:haha..60 slot bag.
10 slot, 12 slot maybe. 60? laughable.
What is laughable is dismissing some else's ernestly made suggestion without giving the slightest reason whatsoever.
It seems so obvious that I'm not sure an explanation is needed but...
All itemization/stat allocation etc. needs to be looked at through a long term perspective. There has to be room to grow. Maybe 60 slot bags would be ok multiple decades down the line (maybe not?).
There have been multiple threads about minimizing mudflation over the long term. This fits with that.
I seem to be repeating this a lot lately but, at this point in development, we need to take what we are given and temper our expectations. If it isn't absolutely necessary to see the game launch it is a waste of time imho.
I think I would be fine with 12-20 slot bags late game, starting with a 6 at the beginning. I wouldn't throw away idea of 60 slot bags just yet though - to be honest having one 60 slot bag for adventuring sounds much more reasonable than having multiple small ones which you can carry as many as you want till a point when you no longer can move.
I'm not sure why 60 is just wrong/laughable/whatever.
Let's face it the whole mechanic is almost always somewhat ridiculous in any MMORPG I can think of.
Wearing 10 backpacks is fine? (image a hiker with 10 backpacks strapped on, even empty, then imagine them getting into a fight...) and those bags all having 12 slots is fine? Where a 'slot' may contain a dragon's head or a steel breastplate and a feather might take up an equivalent 'slot'? Yeah that's all fine... but 60 slots is somehow dumb? *shrug*
Anyway, aside from ridiculing the OP for no particularly good reason...
Yeah it's perhaps a bit early to worry about such specifics.
I don't doubt that Pantheon will be similar to EQ/Vanguard in this regard and they never had any problems with inclusion of weight reduction bags. There were ones of various grades, from 5% to 100%, with varying numbers of slots and varying intrinsic weight all to consider. They were just as legit a quest/adventure/exploration target as any other item of gear.
Depending on the class they were pretty much essential (Monks in EQ especially).
No reason why crafted bags shouldn't have weight reduction and slot in amongst the desirable dropped gear just like crafted swords, armor or whatever.
Barin999 points to something interesting: In EQ we had weight reducing bags (up to 100%), yet the characters also gained a lot of strength over time. Doesn't this mean that effectively weight reduction on bags is not even needed (at least, not with such high percentages)?
Part of the fun (for me) of early game EQ was the struggle: Having to decide wether to loot another (heavy) item (and risk not being able to outrun enemies because you're too heavy and slow). Having to think about what items you loot. Something heavy (that you know will fetch a good price)? Or some smaller, stackable items that may be better overall? I would like this early game struggle to be a part of Pantheon too. However, weight shouldn't be too crippling either (anyone recall playing a high elf cleric or paladin?).
Given that, I agree with some answers above...no 60 slot / 100% weight reduction bags right out of the gate please. If there are bigger and better bags later on, that's fine. Just don't go overboard in the beginning.
Sorry I had to finish my post quick had wife arrgo. When I was talking about a WR Bag that was an item down the line as you would need a high level crafter to creat a highlevel bag that could take an enchantment. Then find an enchanter that could enchant the bag. The first level giving a weak 5% reduction to the Master Enchanter thst could fold space to handle size and wieght of items placed into the bag. I also just picked 60 out of the sky. It may need to be smaller number of slots but that could be worked out in alpha and beta or even after.
philo said:Jothany said:Vandraad said:...
What is laughable is dismissing some else's ernestly made suggestion without giving the slightest reason whatsoever.
It seems so obvious that I'm not sure an explanation is needed but...
All itemization/stat allocation etc. needs to be looked at through a long term perspective. There has to be room to grow. Maybe 60 slot bags would be ok multiple decades down the line (maybe not?).
It seems so obvious that I'm not sure I should have to explain this but...
The point of the OP's post was to talk about Crafting bags in the game and having Weight Reducing Bags being possible. If you or Vandraad dismissed the post out of hand just because of the number 60 in it then I really think you missed the point of the post.
Jothany said:philo said:Jothany said:Vandraad said:...
What is laughable is dismissing some else's ernestly made suggestion without giving the slightest reason whatsoever.
It seems so obvious that I'm not sure an explanation is needed but...
All itemization/stat allocation etc. needs to be looked at through a long term perspective. There has to be room to grow. Maybe 60 slot bags would be ok multiple decades down the line (maybe not?).
It seems so obvious that I'm not sure I should have to explain this but...
The point of the OP's post was to talk about Crafting bags in the game and having Weight Reducing Bags being possible. If you or Vandraad dismissed the post out of hand just because of the number 60 in it then I really think you missed the point of the post.
With the previously discussed weight limits and the precedence set by EQ and other games we would all be surprised if there wasn't some kind of weight reduction bags.
Basic common sense should be that weight reducing bags will be a standard feature. Next you will be asking if haste items will be in game.
Gimme a break...
A bag of holding would be an awesome thing to have...though I don't remember too much of them. They roughly hold...400?...500 pounds...might be less than those two but I know it was into the hundreds for sure...and they hold 50 cubic feet?...maybe 60?...I do know they had a 100% reduction in weight though, again I don't remember too much about them, it's been a while since I have had to actually pull on that knowledge. As far as how one got one...the only time I ever got one was finding it, so I'm not sure if they can be made conventionally. Though considering that this isn't D&D and a completely different game entirely, I don't see why we couldn't make them. Maybe a really high level crafter of sorts with very rare materials could make them? Maybe even just finding them in a couple places in the world where you could possibly find them; with some super rare drop rate or something, then the other bags would still hold value.
As for the original bags and storage thing, I don't see an issue with having a 60 slot bag, maybe somewhere later in the game when expansions come out? I honestly don't know where they would be alright to come out, but I don't see why having them would be an issue either. Of course start out with small stuff and everyone, crafter or otherwise, would probably work their way up to that from smaller bags to said 60 slot. I don't see an issue with bags or weight reduction bags...I'm just not sure if you there would be different bags of holding with different types of weight reductions and slots, again this is a game, they can do as they please with that type of thing lol. It'll be interesting to see what VR comes out with on it.
philo said:With the previously discussed weight limits and the precedence set by EQ and other games we would all be surprised if there wasn't some kind of weight reduction bags.
Basic common sense should be that weight reducing bags will be a standard feature. Next you will be asking if haste items will be in game.
Could you explain why it should be seen as a standard feature within the game?
If the content of your inventory is so heavy that you require "magical" weight reducing bags. Doesn't that tell you more about the design of item weight and the amount of items a character can loot/hold?
Instead of the weight reduction you could design your items in such a way that the weight of those items is less taxing on the character. And as a result the character can still fill their bags up to the max of their capacity without requiring those magical bags.
In case you don't want to temper with the actual weight of items themselves (which are still being designed as we speak..) how about trying to manage bag space and item size within the bags. A breastplate would take up more 'space/carrying capacity' than a block of cheese for example. The carrying capacity of the character is now determined by what the player chooses to put in their bags and how sizeable those items are within their bags themselves. Again no magic is required here.
Another scenario would be, like I mentioned above. Your character can grow stronger and by doing so their carrying capacity increases. Taking into consideration that item weight has not been tempered with, the amount of items a character can carry will expand. This without the aid of magical bags. The limitation here is the pace of growth of the character's carrying capacity and the actual size of their bags (none magic bags).
Next is the question about the nececessity of being able to carry so much that your character should REQUIRE those weight reduction bags as a STANDARD feature. If I'm reading this line several times, it already seems to make little sense. Sure, it's a fun feature, it's a bit of fluff combined with a Quality Of Life feature. How you'd explain the excistance of those bags lore-wise,...I'll be happy to read what the dev's come up with that. (if any explanation is due on that part at all). Why is your character carrying so much, how long do you hold items in your bags before clearing them out? How fast are you going to loot items within this game? If loot opportunitis are spares/scares, (as to my understanding, they will be, compared to other games), the durations of your gamesessions will have to be extended by quite a lot in order to get to a point of bags being full/carrying capacity being reached. Pantheon will be a slower paced game, meaning everything will be going slower, this (to my understanding) includes collecting loot or filling up your inventory.
If these bags are a rare drop somewhere in the world or if they can be crafted by a master craftsmen. It will have to be considered that it will impact the market value of bags in general. Most are in agreement that it shouldn't be accesable from the start. If it's tradeable, it will undermine other bags regardless of their size. It's a can of worms you can't close as years go on. It will have to be a combination of an increase in bagspace with weightreduction. In case you stick to bagspace vs weightreduction, it becomes pointless to have the both in the game at the same time. Either your bags are going to be too small but weigthreduction is a occuring or your bags are big enough but the character is impacted by the actual weight of their inventory and prices will drop of these crafted bags. In the other scenario where you start of with plain ones, they'll get traded out asap with weight reduction ones and for the rest of their carrier those latter ones will set the standard for your character's bags. And so the character grows in levels as expansions build up, now if you stick to a permanent lock on bagsize, you'll be able to keep those made in previous expansions as no bag will be bigger and your own are still as usefull. This results in not requiring new recipes for crafted bags, a questionable long term goal on its own. If however bagsize and weightreduction are also increasing as the expansions grow, you'll have set up a nice build for grinding alts and massive loot dumps, flooring the market value of just about anything. Also the actual meaning of item weight becomes pointless as a character will be able to carry more than makes sense and you'll progress to the topic of "We need inventory management features, quick macroed UI clickies because I lost my cat in my bags for weeks now..." Going even further, if no UI support is delivered, players will lose the connection with their character as the biggest part of their gamesession will be consumed by tedious click and drag motions trying to clear out your massive weightreduction bags. Some just might not even bother at all, and just sell it all. This again results in a detachement of the item identity, emotional value of items and the content provided in the world they're living in. Not even mentioning the cashbuild up that comes from it. You could consider the design of UI-inventory management features to aid with the massive inventory, a treatment of symptomes but not tackling the actual disease itself. (just a figure of speech, let's not stumble over choice of words here.)
As with everything, there are more options than one, so there might be reasons to create these weight reduction bags. What examples are there to call for this feature to be a standard one in the game?
If we actually need 60 slot bags, we have bigger problems than the bags.
Likewise, if we find ourselves really needing or desiring bags with high percentages of weight reduction, we have bigger problems than the bags too.
The idea of crafted bags offering more space or better weight reduction is a good one, but we need to be careful not to take it to extremes. If you want items and encumbrance to actually be meaningful, you can't have players carrying around ridiculous amounts of stuff. Period.
Edit: I also think it's *very* important that we don't assume that bags will function exactly like EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift, Vanguard, or (insert game here). While they will certainly be similar, VR has the opportunity to go a different direction if they think it's better for the player experience they're trying to drive.
OCastitatisLilium said:Though considering that this isn't D&D and a completely different game entirely, I don't see why we couldn't make them. Maybe a really high level crafter of sorts with very rare materials could make them? Maybe even just finding them in a couple places in the world where you could possibly find them; with some super rare drop rate or something, then the other bags would still hold value.
In short term yes, that could hold.
Let's say, someone discovered these bags and knows where to find the resources. Either they spread the word and many others will want those better bags or the knowledge of this special bag is spread by other means. People will know about it in the end. Now it becomes a matter of how fast can this bag be made or farmed. In other games such items get on farm status quite fast and regularly. Now you are already starting to get into a narrower pathway, where those other bags become less and less valueable. Give it another of months/years and you will have reached the bottom value but also you'll have reached the minium life expentancy of the lesser bag's life. If you can follow me here. A character might only use those lesser bags for a very brief period of time before they switch them out for those better ones which have become common good now. So now we're getting into the aspect of how long does an item have meaning or value (currency or other) within the game. If you already assume beforehand that certain items will not have long lifespan within the game, you'd want to tackle that issue or discard the entire item directly and cut your losses before you make them.
Barin999 said:In short term yes, that could hold.
Let's say, someone discovered these bags and knows where to find the resources. Either they spread the word and many others will want those better bags or the knowledge of this special bag is spread by other means. People will know about it in the end. Now it becomes a matter of how fast can this bag be made or farmed. In other games such items get on farm status quite fast and regularly. Now you are already starting to get into a narrower pathway, where those other bags become less and less valueable. Give it another of months/years and you will have reached the bottom value but also you'll have reached the minium life expentancy of the lesser bag's life. If you can follow me here. A character might only use those lesser bags for a very brief period of time before they switch them out for those better ones which have become common good now. So now we're getting into the aspect of how long does an item have meaning or value (currency or other) within the game. If you already assume beforehand that certain items will not have long lifespan within the game, you'd want to tackle that issue or discard the entire item directly and cut your losses before you make them.
hmm...true...though...if you don't mind me going back to D&D here for a moment, I do remember the bags being lost if damaged. If the bag is ever torn, pierced, or damaged in any way that renders the pocket useless, then the items within are lost to the astral plane and pocket world that they are being held in. Now, we don't have to go that far as to lose items within, but what if the bag had a chance to be punctured or torn? if not that, then how about some way to give it a chance to have it lose it's weight reduction properties? That way, even if they are on farm status, peopel would be a little hesitant on eithe spending money on buying them from players or even making them. If they are crafted, very rare items would be needed to make them, if the bag is torn, then it takes thos crafting materials with it once it's no good? I mean, granted I would be the first to rage at the loss of my weight reduction bag, but I also understand how games work and how players work as well lol.
What is the lowest drop rate that we could make for something like that, one that would make it super rare, but not impossible to get? On top of that, you could do the same thing with the materials needed to make it. You could also have it require a high end spell too to make it, I mean opening a portal and a pocket world in the astral plain is no easy feat lol. we could try something like that? I see where you are coming from that eventually the bags are going to be redused to something useless as the years go on if something like this is in the game, and I do know how fast something like this goes on farm status lol. Though eventually lesser slotted bags would become useless as well with expansions and even introductions of more slotted bags...though I get it, this would definitely speed that up some.
Weight reduction bags have been mentioned by VR. People seem to be over thinking it. I'm sure we have all played games where they are available. These won't be different. It's almost as if some people haven't used weight reducing bags in a mmo before. It's very different than bags of holding in D&D...hopefully everyone understands how these work. It makes me question some peoples gaming experience...
Jothany said:I'm sure we'll be able to craft bags. Weight reduction bags sounds like an excellent addition. As they sound quite powerful and useful, I'd hope they would require fairly high level skill and materials to craft. I'd also hope that they have many fewer slots than a normal bag, requiring the player to give up many normal inventory slots in return for a few slots that negate the burden of what is in them. Thus, it would be counterproductive for a rich player to simply make every one of his bags weight reducing ones.
Riahuf22 said:60 slots? hmm no, i mean I'm totally fine with bags and everything obviously but 60 slots is way too much, i would probably even say 20 is too much, so maybe like 14 slot bags is probably where I'm comfortable, and weight reduction, I'm okay with weight Reduction, nothing crazy but a little bit is okay.
I'm mystified by what criteria would be used to judge what is a 'good' size from what is a 'bad' size. Could you explain what value you see in fewer slots?
I'd like my char to have at least a few different bags in his inventory for the sake of easy organization. However for me, somewhere between 5 and 10 bags passes a point of diminishing returns where I'd rather have fewer, larger bags than simply have more bags. As far as an upper limit on bag size, as long as all the slots are visible at one time and I don't have to use a scroll bar to see them all, then the bigger the better for me.
Well i guess if i have to explain it, if you have 60 slot bags and have 6 bag spaces that means you have 360 slots worth of bag space which means you never have to go to a selling place or anything like that for a really long time, like probably days worth, which is where lower bag space is more importnt becuase it allows you actually have to manage your bag space and not simply just pick up everything and days on end and than finally have to sell.
I think when some people are being dismissive or critical of others' idea it is because they are assuming Pantheon will be like EQ and VG and they imagine how the suggestion would fit in such a context.
This is not a bad assumption to make, but it could perhaps be kept in mind that not everyone here makes that assumption or even knows EQ/VG and want to talk about the possibilities and theoreticals.
They may have different MMORPG backgrounds that are really quite different and I know that a majority of people actively want something largely like EQ/VG in many ways (including me), but I really don't think it's necessary or helpful to be so negative towards non-EQ-style suggestions.
Back to the OP: 60 slots seems like a lot IF you assume, like in EQ, we might have 10 equipment slots and, so up to 10 bags. But also you have to assume that multiple 60 slot bags would be allowed or the 60 slot bags didn't have content size/weight restrictions, for example the Herbalists bag in Guild Wars 2 (I think. I might be misremembering, but the point is the same). It had very many slots compared to normal bags, but you could only have one and it only held herbs and I think you had to quest for it and it wasn't a low level thing.
Even in EQ there were bags that had weight reduction but only held small items and their intrinsic weight was significant, so you really had to think about what you were planning on carrying and whether a particular bag was the one for you or for a particular trip, even.
There's no reason a 60 slot bag wouldn't have some of these mitigating features and be a fine and reasonable addition to the Baggage-theon-quest situation.