starblight said:Thanks, I forgot about green. It has been some time. If I recall right green was between light blue and blue?
If the redundancy bothers you, I am fine removing the text. Sorry I could not help myself. But in all honesty this is as you can see, important to at least a few of us. For this reason and the fact that it would have very little if any change the game as a whole I think we should have an option on where the information is displayed.
I also get the argument made a few times, that we should not have an option to please everyone but seeing as I have not seen a large list of proposed options, I am not sure if this would be the straw that broke the camels back or not. Instead I would argue that while I would not be against an option for this, too many options would start to bother me. But heck that is me.
Well i see you were kind of joking but i don't see how considering via text being redundant when you were naturally curious enough to find the information you were looking for. As in the information is only found when you specifically are looking for it and that is only when it will ever be shown. So as where i can see where some systems are completely redundant the one i am talking about clearly isn't, plus like i said you can evolve it to become something better other than "yellow" and he's KoS, but i don't see how evolving it has anything to do with changing color of a ring does anything but a lazy attempt of a system that can be so much more, and if it doesn't than at least it doesn't need to be redundant system like some as proposed, as i said you won't really be conning everything in a room everytime something respawns as after a while you'll know the level ranges quite quickly so again some of the explainations people are giving are simply just blown out of proportion, just so they can make their system sound like a better alternative without making it sound redundant, even though that is exactly what it is.
Riahuf22 said:Your complaining about a function your going to use very little in general and blowing it into big proportions like your going to be conning every single mob you come across when your simply not going to, so stop with this completely over dramatic scenario like it clutter, when in fact when you are actually "considering" the mob via text it will be becuase you actually wanted to know the level of the mob specific becuase you "Choose" to consider the target to begin with. and than once you have figured out its level range along with most of the area you are at you simply stop using it, and than you dont have an overuse of a feature like your wanting, which by the way is completely redundant, and you go on your merry way and enjoy the game without having a feature that isn't even needed anymore.
Plus honestly your consideration system you keep bringing up, sounds like it also step away from putting ! above quest givers just so the "Information in readily Available simply by clicking on them."
In EQ you quickly learned that if you *didn't* /con everything you would get surprised and killed regularly enough to be significant (and frustrating).
Monsters in any zone should be a of a level *range* (so as not to be too predictable and boring) and if you go looking for monsters to kill that are of *equal* level to you (which is normal with most people enjoying a challenge) then there will be monsters around that are several levels higher and cause significant trouble and maybe death if they add onto a current fight.
You would find that the puller of the group at least would need to /con everything or would very soon end up killing his party by grabbing two yellow con monsters when his party was low on mana, or whatever.
Because of the need to regularly /con monsters, the system really does need to not be painful to use.
Whilst I don't think I would want EQOA's system of superimposed coloured glowing blobs, I would like a UI element - something like a subtle addition to the targetted monster info.
We haven't seen target info in the Pantheon UI yet and I've not heard it asked about. I would like a target UI element - in a 3D window with a fight going on you aren't always looking directly at your target and a target UI element means you don't lose track.
This is EQ2's target UI element: -
It's a little messy, but shows well how different info can be shown. The monster's relative level/power/difficultly is given by the name colour (white = even). The level is actually explicitly given, but it could be omitted, IMO. The up arrows indicate how many characters are needed against just this monster. The word heroic is additional when this is 2 or more (a 'group' monster) so is a little redundant, but raid monsters would be "Epic", for example. The border/outline of the name indicates likelihood it will attack or not - glowing red is not good - this transitions through white to green as the monster becomes an ally. https://eq2.fandom.com/wiki/Understanding_Your_Enemy
I'm maybe mis-remembering, but I thought maybe the border changed when the enemy was a 'named' or 'rare' spawn and under other interesting circumstances. I may be remembering a different game.
There's no reason subtle additions couldn't be made to indicate things like aggression range and disposition. Wouldn't want to over load it (and I know some don't want all that extra info at all) but the potential is there.
Anyway, the point is, I would like to see the target UI be used for /con and, then, the chat window text is useful as it should be - a log you look back on - rather than something you have to try and use in hectic combat. If you don't like the chat /com spam, then you can filter it, but everyone should have the same UI /con info experience.
I would also like to comment: If the /con system is too basic or difficult to use, people will just look up the zone/monsters on a Wiki. They probably just wanted a hint to help their exploration and end up with complete spoilers.
I feel similarly for lots of features. If VR don't make an immersive and useful but limited and lore-based version, then it will be 'spoiled' in third-party sites/tools. For the /con system I can imagine a tool that scans your log for /con text and /loc location text and cross-references with a user-built database of monster information popping up detailed spoiler info on everything you target.
disposalist said:Riahuf22 said:Your complaining about a function your going to use very little in general and blowing it into big proportions like your going to be conning every single mob you come across when your simply not going to, so stop with this completely over dramatic scenario like it clutter, when in fact when you are actually "considering" the mob via text it will be becuase you actually wanted to know the level of the mob specific becuase you "Choose" to consider the target to begin with. and than once you have figured out its level range along with most of the area you are at you simply stop using it, and than you dont have an overuse of a feature like your wanting, which by the way is completely redundant, and you go on your merry way and enjoy the game without having a feature that isn't even needed anymore.
Plus honestly your consideration system you keep bringing up, sounds like it also step away from putting ! above quest givers just so the "Information in readily Available simply by clicking on them."
In EQ you quickly learned that if you *didn't* /con everything you would get surprised and killed regularly enough to be significant (and frustrating).
Monsters in any zone should be a of a level *range* (so as not to be too predictable and boring) and if you go looking for monsters to kill that are of *equal* level to you (which is normal with most people enjoying a challenge) then there will be monsters around that are several levels higher and cause significant trouble and maybe death if they add onto a current fight.
You would find that the puller of the group at least would need to /con everything or would very soon end up killing his party by grabbing two yellow con monsters when his party was low on mana, or whatever.
Because of the need to regularly /con monsters, the system really does need to not be painful to use.
Whilst I don't think I would want EQOA's system of superimposed coloured glowing blobs, I would like a UI element - something like a subtle addition to the targetted monster info.
We haven't seen target info in the Pantheon UI yet and I've not heard it asked about. I would like a target UI element - in a 3D window with a fight going on you aren't always looking directly at your target and a target UI element means you don't lose track.
This is EQ2's target UI element: -
It's a little messy, but shows well how different info can be shown. The monster's relative level/power/difficultly is given by the name colour (white = even). The level is actually explicitly given, but it could be omitted, IMO. The up arrows indicate how many characters are needed against just this monster. The word heroic is additional when this is 2 or more (a 'group' monster) so is a little redundant, but raid monsters would be "Epic", for example. The border/outline of the name indicates likelihood it will attack or not - glowing red is not good - this transitions through white to green as the monster becomes an ally. https://eq2.fandom.com/wiki/Understanding_Your_Enemy
I'm maybe mis-remembering, but I thought maybe the border when the enemy was a 'named' or 'rare' spawn and under other interesting circumstances. I may be remembering a different game.
There's no reason subtle additions couldn't be made to indicate things like aggression range and disposition. Wouldn't want to over load it (and I know some don't want all that extra info at all) but the potential is there.
Anyway, the point is, I would like to see the target UI be used for /con and, then, the chat window text is useful as it should be - a log you look back on - rather than something you have to try and use in hectic combat. If you don't like the chat /com spam, then you can filter it, but everyone should have the same UI /con info experience.
Lol, that not really correct, more times than not people wiped due to target priotity than not conning, like i said if your in Crushbone and you know Orc Centurions were 5-10, Orc Legionnniares were like 9-15, Orc Emissary was 13-16, Orc Orcales were like 12-14, and orc prophets were 15-16, than roughly everytime you pull a mob with a particular name you knew what type of diffculty you were about to face, so again the conning system more likely had nothing to do with why your group wiped, but either you pulled a mob that was simply to strong for you to begin with or you were trying to kill a emissary when their was a prophet close by and wasn't trying to kill him first, so from where i stand had nothing to do with conning but failing to assess the situation correctly and ultimately cuased you to wipe.
And as for pullers, again they will learn the level ranges of these mobs as I've just mentioned and once they have completely learned their level ranges they will eventually not be using it, especially once they get high enough and most of them become blue, which by the way is by far more optimal to begin with unless your speed running and trying to stay in fornt of the general population to reach max level, which won't be 95% of us. granted you could have a few white's and yellows for sure within those pull but you naturally normally look for mobs that are lower level so the difficulty of the pulls is alrdy lower than it would of been if they weren't so therefore you go to place that fit this criteria and pull away to a point carefree and now you don't really have to con anything becuase you alrdy know you outleveled it. at least from a number preceptive.
Now for your nameplate, I mean its better than the color coded rings that some have proposed i can at least say that, but at the same time it only going to be telling me something i will know eventually anyway and at the end it will still be redundant, but i can say at least if i had to choice between color coded ring and a nameplate in place of the via text system i would use the nameplate, but i would still personally like text more.
Riahuf22 said:Lol, that not really correct, more times than not people wiped due to target priotity than not conning, like i said if your in Crushbone and you know Orc Centurions were 5-10, Orc Legionnniares were like 9-15, Orc Emissary was 13-16, Orc Orcales were like 12-14, and orc prophets were 15-16, than roughly everytime you pull a mob with a particular name you knew what type of diffculty you were about to face, so again the conning system more likely had nothing to do with why your group wiped, but either you pulled a mob that was simply to strong for you to begin with or you were trying to kill a emissary when their was a prophet close by and wasn't trying to kill him first, so from where i stand had nothing to do with conning but failing to assess the situation correctly and ultimately cuased you to wipe.
Sure, with a full group you could withstand a bad pull better, but with 2 or 3 characters grabbing a couple of yellows instead of a couple of whites could well mean death. Your Crushbone example is good. A range of 5 or 6 levels wasn't unusual for "the same" monster and would often mean death if you got one end of the scale and not the other.
Also, how do you "know" the level ranges until you've /con ned the monsters there a lot? How many times do you have to die in every new area you enter just to work out the area is too high level for you?
Of course it wasn't the only reason for deaths and not the primary reason - all I said was that it was 'significant' and 'frustrating' to die just because you didn't /con. It was an important factor, so to suggest the /con system was used very little is "not really correct"
But, hey, let's not argue. Let's just say *you* didn't feel you needed to /con stuff. But lot's of people I know avoided deaths by doing it and got killed when they forgot. Personally I used /con a lot.
disposalist said:Riahuf22 said:Lol, that not really correct, more times than not people wiped due to target priotity than not conning, like i said if your in Crushbone and you know Orc Centurions were 5-10, Orc Legionnniares were like 9-15, Orc Emissary was 13-16, Orc Orcales were like 12-14, and orc prophets were 15-16, than roughly everytime you pull a mob with a particular name you knew what type of diffculty you were about to face, so again the conning system more likely had nothing to do with why your group wiped, but either you pulled a mob that was simply to strong for you to begin with or you were trying to kill a emissary when their was a prophet close by and wasn't trying to kill him first, so from where i stand had nothing to do with conning but failing to assess the situation correctly and ultimately cuased you to wipe.
Sure, with a full group you could withstand a bad pull better, but with 2 or 3 characters grabbing a couple of yellows instead of a couple of whites could well mean death. Your Crushbone example is good. A range of 5 or 6 levels wasn't unusual for "the same" monster and would often mean death if you got one end of the scale and not the other.
Also, how do you "know" the level ranges until you've /con ned the monsters there a lot? How many times do you have to die in every new area you enter just to work out the area is too high level for you?
Of course it wasn't the only reason for deaths and not the primary reason - all I said was that it was 'significant' and 'frustrating' to die just because you didn't /con. It was an important factor, so to suggest the /con system was used very little is "not really correct"
But, hey, let's not argue. Let's just say *you* didn't feel you needed to /con stuff. But lot's of people I know avoided deaths by doing it and got killed when they forgot. Personally I used /con a lot.
Well i might it more in the grand scheme of things, like yes if your level 11 for instances you will be conning a lot becuase your still getting a feel for the zone and since some thing in that zone are still red your naturally curious when they will become yellow, but once your there enough and you become 16 and realize everytihng is either even or below you stop doing it becuase you alrdy know all those level ranges and don't nee that information anymore. and this process repeats itself constantly until you get max level and than it stays there and never chnages and therefore the con system has little impact on gameplay.
In all my time playing EQ it never occured to me that con system was cumbersome. Did anyone actually feel that it was in the moment? I would target a mob, tap c, then use the slightest glancing eye twitch to see what color popped up in the chat log. If I was looking for faction con, then I would have to read the message, but that seemed reasonable what information I was seeking.
Just to clarify - it wasn't a "enter, /, c, o, n, enter" combo. It's just pressing "c".
There were a great many things in EQ where I thought "oh, I wish this system worked differently", but pressing c to con and getting the message in the chat box was not one of them. Did anyone really have a bad experience with that system?
I guess it's funny for me to post on this topic though because 10 years ago I would have been arguing for the other side :).
disposalist said:Anyway, the point is, I would like to see the target UI be used for /con and, then, the chat window text is useful as it should be - a log you look back on - rather than something you have to try and use in hectic combat. If you don't like the chat /com spam, then you can filter it, but everyone should have the same UI /con info experience.
This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I don't really care if the information is displayed in the nameplate or target reticle but the action-command>chat-box stuff just feels super antiquated and redundant. I do not want my chat-box spammed with that information.
oneADseven said:disposalist said:Anyway, the point is, I would like to see the target UI be used for /con and, then, the chat window text is useful as it should be - a log you look back on - rather than something you have to try and use in hectic combat. If you don't like the chat /com spam, then you can filter it, but everyone should have the same UI /con info experience.
This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I don't really care if the information is displayed in the nameplate or target reticle but the action-command>chat-box stuff just feels super antiquated and redundant. I do not want my chat-box spammed with that information.
The only addition if it came to this is that if the mob would of conned red to us than that level be hidden to us becuase the mob level woudn't be known to us anyway, but as soon as it would of came into range of the yellow con mob than we could see the level as it was meant to be, that way you cant simply just run around clicking on willy nilly everything and know everything level simply becuase you simply clicked on them. and i guess if it came to this small change included i would be fine with it, but if not than i simply wouldn't agree with it again, as i feel there is a sense of danger when you have no idea what level they are. And i don't mean by WoW standards either that 10 level difference before becoming a skull is for the birds, as i believe anythign 4 levels above us should be hidden from us, as if leveling is truly as important as they make it seem this would also tied into that as well.
Ainadak said:In all my time playing EQ it never occured to me that con system was cumbersome. Did anyone actually feel that it was in the moment? I would target a mob, tap c, then use the slightest glancing eye twitch to see what color popped up in the chat log. If I was looking for faction con, then I would have to read the message, but that seemed reasonable what information I was seeking.
Just to clarify - it wasn't a "enter, /, c, o, n, enter" combo. It's just pressing "c".
There were a great many things in EQ where I thought "oh, I wish this system worked differently", but pressing c to con and getting the message in the chat box was not one of them. Did anyone really have a bad experience with that system?
I agree, and to be honest I never found pressing a button (C) to be cumbersome at all - not even in the slightest. I like seeing a simple line in the text box instead of visual clutter outside the chat box. Visual clutter in the world (whether in UI or around the mob) is one thing I did not like about World of Warcraft and the like. I think containing Con in the text box is smart, as VR has done per streams. It makes sense to utilize the text box since this mmorpg is also being immensely designed on community and socialization; Pantheon is not being designed like World of Warcraft or a game for PlayStation, for example. Actually, it would be great to see more actions in Terminus (cc, pets etc) if the devs so wish to do so. I can see them upgrading what the text says, but asking VR to change their system altogether goes much too far for me. I respect the system work they have already done. And, I think their time is better spent actually making Pantheon than going back and changing their systems because some people may have their own personal, different versions of it. Things such as Consider are one of many ways that I am seeing Pantheon being different (per streams) than WoW & the like that are out there at the moment, so I am happy to see that.
Riahuf22 said:I don't know if you were being serious but I;n definately against colored Rings for pantheon
i'm always serious(laughing maniacally).
so the con system is just a fancy way of an identifying mobs.
sigh and i thought it was something more in depth. eh i'm out this thread i wasted 5 pages of reading to figure this out XD
i agree no colour changing rings.
keep the ui simple
keep the relay of information simple
less is more
When your original experience with EQ looked like this
Oh and whenever you meditated you saw this
Conning seemed low on the list of things to be concerned about. But you are right I never viewed it as a cumbersome. But a lot has changed since then and it would surprise me if of all the things worth keeping form the old days that was one chosen.
@stellarmind I keep forgetting people did not play EQ. I realize this is an odd mistake to make but I keep doing it. I realize a lot of what we are talking about might be lost if not explained to those that have not played EQ.
anyways sorry for not being clearer.
Vanguard had lots of problems but I still loved it. I would rank it #2 in my list of favorite MMO’s. The emulator is definitely a work in progress but it is far enough along to give a good idea what the game was like.
I also setup my own EQ emulator for a bit a few years ago. Even with nostalgia that game is hard to go back too. The UI and the graphics are just so bad. I agree it would give people an idea of what was lost in new games. But that is only if they could stomach it long enough to experience it.