Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Epic items that grow with your character?

    • 2752 posts
    December 30, 2019 12:54 PM PST

    This suggestion seems to come about every so often. People need to learn to let go of old equipment, or at the very least let what once was a cornerstone of gear fall into being simply niche or even cosmetic. 

     

    • 57 posts
    December 30, 2019 3:16 PM PST

    BamBam said: I hope epic items wont be the Best, i Hope it got flavor and is best in certain situations, but other late game items are better in other situations. Most healthy for the game overall.

    I agree, I would like "epics" to help the class in it's core role, but not be a game changer.  

    I liked how EQII did it where you could break your "epic" and retain the ability as a castable spell or buff while opening the hand slot for a new item.

    As someone that played a healer main for quite some time I hated having my epic equiped.  Unless I was in a raid zone I would regularly get ninja group or guild invites.  Please make sure we have the option to alter/hide appearance of the "epic" item.

    • 73 posts
    January 1, 2020 10:06 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    ...Even without progressing them, from an economy standpoint - epics can be a problem as the game ages.  They're generally better than most drops or crafted items, and so as more and more people get them, there's less and less demand for those alternatives.  This applies whether the "epic" is a weapon, a piece of armor, or something else like a utility artifact...

    I actually think this is a great thought!

    A player completing his/her "Epic" class quest is awarded with an artifact that they could add to a weapon/gear thus enhancing it's stats and or applying a magical bonus to said item. A sword for example that is good for them currently, but as they explore or become better at crafting, they can pull it out and it can be added to another.  In other words, as you go up in level, the "epic" piece can be added to the next higher level item. 


    Good discussion...

    Happy New Year

     

    • 124 posts
    January 1, 2020 1:11 PM PST

    I can't see why the original epic item cannot be considered a component of the new version when expansions are released. Meaning, you level to 50, get your epic and everything is fine. Then, an expansion is released, the level cap (somewhat inevitably) increases, and the item could then become obsolete. However, there's absolutely no reason why the epic quest lines cannot be extended in the expansion, requiring the original epic to be turned in as a component for the new, improved version.

    I'm sure this has been done / mentioned already, but if not, it seems like a logical progression that also ensures the original epic quest line and the reward remain valid in years to come.

    • 238 posts
    January 1, 2020 7:40 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Baldur said:

    I understand where you're coming from but I think it comes down to this

    If you as a game developer chose to add a class epic and integrate that item into class lore and class identity, only to then reduce it to an on use consumable, why add it in the first place? Wouldn't it have just been easier to make the on-use ability into a class spell that could be leveled up in future expansions instead? That spell would hold a lot more relevance in terms of class identity and lore, VS an item that is eventually going to become outdated and obsolete. When you make the decision to implement an item, tie it heavily into class identity, then you invalidate that item; what you have also done in this process is invalidated the time and effort into getting that item, as well as any class identity that item may have provided.  

    One of my issues with WoW-Legion was the class/spec weapon they gave you. You received this item at level 100 (98 if you want to be technical). This weapon lasted you until level 110 and as a result, no new weapons were added during the legion expansion and the only new models were reduced to transmog skins for these weapons. Ten levels stuck using the same weapon, leveling it up, and not switching it out. However, my biggest issue with the weapon is the fact that they just go inactive at the end of the expansion. These supper massive lore driven weapons, with identities that far preceded their actual implementation, gone in an instant. This was far worse than being stuck with the same weapon for 10 levels. It would have been nice to see these weapons transform into something at the end of the expansion that had lasting class relevance as well as acted as a tribute to the lore behind these weapons. 

    While this scenario is a bit different from how EverQuest has handled legendaries over the expansions, the same concept of invalidation is present in both to some degree. In both games, you have weapons that are heavily tied into class identity and have roots based in lore. Then over time, these items become reduced to being obsolete. The only major difference is that in EverQuest at least they still provide a buff, while in WoW they are just completely inactive and no longer provide anything of relevance to the classes. 

     

     

    Because gear and epic items shouldn't have the lifespan of a maggot. Taking Wow's medium item lifespan is a bad example, but taking Epics in EQ I used mine for probably 2 two 3 years (rogue). It depended of what raiding level you had, which items you got, and if you had no good haste belt the dagger was at least an offhand for a long, long time.

     

    It doesn't mean the item should have a decades of lifespan throught upgrades, but despite your ideas, most epics retained some use -even if you do not like the clicky change - which made them valuables expansions later. Would have they retained their "Best in slot" for the same time, Epics would no longer have been choices or accomplishments, but forced paths.

    Then that brings up my question yet again if they were only going to be reduced to on use spells/abilities why not just implement them in that form, to begin with? Was it really necessary to implement them in the form of an item associated with class lore only to have that item lose its relevance?  

    As for wow being a bad example you're right the fact that items have such a drastically limited life span and quickly become invalidated is a horrible design. The point about artifact weapons though in the context of this discussion still stands. Weapons associated with class lore and identity basically becoming more or less pointless additions to the game and pointless additions to class identity and lore. Regardless of the game if you're going to add something into the game associate it with the class identity then, whatever that something is, it needs to be a lasting implementation. 

    As for forced paths I really hate to break this to you, but there will always be forced paths regardless of the game that you play. Be that in terms of gearing, abilities, rotations. There will always be an item, spell, stat allotment, a class rotation... etc which the community will pick up on and start to prefer that path vs alternate deviations. No game is or will ever be immune from this truth. 

    • 287 posts
    January 2, 2020 11:02 AM PST

    Regarding epics, I think it would be best to think of the weapon as part artifact, part innate power that your character learns in order to weild the epic.

     

    Prior to expansions, just having a "best in slot" epic would be perfectly fine for me. Once an expansion comes out, a clever way to deal with trivializing your epic weapon would be to focus on your character's learned ability to weild the epic. Instead of upgrading that weapon, you could essentially imbue certain new weapons with that ability. For warriors, that epic ability could have completely different effects depending on whether you are using a sword, mace, dagger, shield, etc. That would prevent a "best-in-slot" scenarios and give a wide range of ways to use your "epic".

    • 1019 posts
    January 3, 2020 6:35 AM PST

    Cromulent said:

    One of the things that always seemed rather pointless to me in EverQuest is that you would get your epic and then an expansion or two down the road it was considered obsolete or at least relegated to being a useful clicky. What I'd like to see are items that gain stats as you level up. So say you got your epic at level 50 if the next expansion raises the level limit your epic would continue to grow. You could even do a "top-up" quest in the new expansion to get even better stat increases.

    EQ2 did this well I feel.  In the EOF expansion we earned our Epics.  And yes a expansion or two later they would have been useless, but instead, SOE created a quest to be completed that turned your Epic weapon into a buff for your character, and the weapon itself became a house decor item that was mounted and could be hung on your walls.

    So not only did you have this epically long quest with lore and history behind it that eventually earned you your great weapon, later in the game, that quest was extended and more lore was offered and more connection to that weapon was made.  Doing these quests when they first came out were some of the most memorable experiences I had in MMO's.


    This post was edited by Kittik at January 3, 2020 6:36 AM PST
    • 368 posts
    January 3, 2020 9:49 AM PST

    I am all for a evolving / levelling items that progress as you do. I dont think it should be on all items. But certainly an item like an epic piece. Even if it involves doing more quests with new xpacs to bring the item up to current tier. Like the EQ1 1.5 to 2.0 progression.

     


    This post was edited by arazons at January 3, 2020 9:50 AM PST
    • 1247 posts
    January 4, 2020 5:40 AM PST

    BamBam said: I hope epic items wont be the Best, i Hope it got flavor and is best in certain situations, but other late game items are better in other situations. Most healthy for the game overall.

    That’s great! It is nice when item and environment matter like that. 

    • 1247 posts
    January 4, 2020 5:41 AM PST

    Kalok said:

    If I recall correctly, at one point , they said that Epic items and abilities would be upgradable.  And that in addition to Epic weapons, there would be Epic gear (such as armor) and Epic abilities.

    Terrific! I look forward to these epic items, perhaps via quest. :)