Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Epic items that grow with your character?

    • 1468 posts
    December 28, 2019 9:37 AM PST

    One of the things that always seemed rather pointless to me in EverQuest is that you would get your epic and then an expansion or two down the road it was considered obsolete or at least relegated to being a useful clicky. What I'd like to see are items that gain stats as you level up. So say you got your epic at level 50 if the next expansion raises the level limit your epic would continue to grow. You could even do a "top-up" quest in the new expansion to get even better stat increases.

    I've been away from the Pantheon community for some time so if this has already been discussed my apologies, but I wanted to put this idea down on the forums to see what people thought about it.

    • 1785 posts
    December 28, 2019 9:53 AM PST

    I'm not sure we've had a forum discussion about this specifically (although someone with better search skills will probably prove me wrong).  I think the challenge with progressive item quests is that they can invalidate other items added in an expansion.

    Example:  In the base game you work your way through several weapons before finally completing your "epic" and obtaining a new weapon, which you continue to use at level 50.  Now, an expansion comes out and adds five more levels to the game.  You are less incentivized to use other weapons than you are to simply complete the quest to upgrade your "epic".

    There needs to be a balance between allowing people to somehow progress what they already have and encouraging them to go and obtain new items.

    Even without progressing them, from an economy standpoint - epics can be a problem as the game ages.  They're generally better than most drops or crafted items, and so as more and more people get them, there's less and less demand for those alternatives.  This applies whether the "epic" is a weapon, a piece of armor, or something else like a utility artifact.  Pantheon needs to be careful in its itemization so that it doesn't create a situation where people start running out of goals to pursue as they progress.

    Finally, just to mention it - if we want to preserve the idea of meaningful choices for characters, then the game absolutely needs to avoid any sort of item that could be considered "best in slot".  If there are epic item quests, those need to either result in a choice of items, or be suitably broad so that other alternatives are still viable for use.

    • 521 posts
    December 28, 2019 12:59 PM PST

    I’m not in favor of scaling items as you level. However, When you use the item maybe you can imprint a piece of yourself (class/skills based), thereby granting “growth” in the form of a new skill or ability. The New “growth” activated ONLY once you sell it to a vendor that then ships it to another random NPC shop somewhere in the world, at an unknown date and away from you.

    • 1428 posts
    December 28, 2019 2:39 PM PST

    epic items that grow with u? EH.

    epic items that become a clicky with a pole dance animation?  lenny face.

    epic items that can be forged from other stuff to upgrade the level?  hmmm.  i could get on board with that.  like a level 12 sword being upgraded to a level 50 would be pretty sweet.

    • 520 posts
    December 28, 2019 4:34 PM PST

    I think that scaling your equipment as you level (equipment gaining it's own exp) is terrible idea in MMO - though it can be pretty awsome in single player games. At the same time it always felt weird when you aquired an item from the legends at level 20 and by level 50 it was total garbage - worse than common equipment for that level. So I would like a way to upgrade any legendary/epic/unique items - if not in regular intervals (like each 10 levels) then at least at current level cap. I think that solution that stellarmind proposed is pretty great ("epic items that can be forged from other stuff to upgrade the level?  hmmm.  i could get on board with that.  like a level 12 sword being upgraded to a level 50 would be pretty sweet"). OR it could be upgraded by doing an epic quest, finding extremally rare matrial or doing certain action (either completely secret or after learning it from books scattered around Terminus) with this item (like slaying certain level 50 boss with level 20 epic sword equipped or diving into a lake during night at a certain date with level 15 epic robe equipped). 

    • 1281 posts
    December 28, 2019 5:27 PM PST

    If I recall correctly, at one point , they said that Epic items and abilities would be upgradable.  And that in addition to Epic weapons, there would be Epic gear (such as armor) and Epic abilities.

    • 238 posts
    December 28, 2019 5:56 PM PST

    I think this concept has some merit, especially when discussing class epic quests/ weapons. I feel like these weapons really shouldn't be classified as epic items, but instead, they should be legendary items based on the number of steps, RNG. and work put into getting the weapon. I also feel like these items should definitely progress with your class into future expansions. Maybe you can't upgrade the item until you hit the next level cap and maybe it requires just as much work as obtaining the previous version, but you definitely should be able to level your class epic up each expansion and it should be the best in slot item each expansion. 

    I also wouldn't mind seeing items that level up with you based on certain requirements. For example, Everquest recently released a set of boots that are best in slot for most classes... the only catch? You have to explore every zone within the game from my understanding, which is no easy feat and requires a decent time sink to complete. 

    I saw one comment above that mentioned systems like these invalidating items in future expansions. I sorta agree with this (outside of the class epic's). Using those boots in Everquest as an example, if they were to continue to increase in stats and level during the next expansion they might invalidate other foot armor. Now there are a few ways to handle this. 1. Make it so the boots can't level up past the current expansion. 2. Make it so the boots slowly start to lose their power and are only really decent for like 3 to 4 levels into the new expansion before they fall off. 3. Incorporate the boots into a future quest chain that could reward the player with a spell/ability that is amazing, or maybe it rewards you with an item that is required to level up your class epic item to the next tier. I feel like there are so many ways to incorporate the concept of items that can level with you, as well as prevent them from invalidating future content. I do think that these items should be limited to the max level of the expansion though, vs getting an item and having it level up with you like 10+ levels, and I also think these items should be fairly limited in number and not the easiest thing to obtain.

    There's is also the concept of crafting and using one piece of armor/ weapon to create something new. I don't really think that falls under the same concept as we are discussing here. Even if you were to upgrade a broad sword into a flaming broad sword, that flaming broad sword should only be with you for a certain length of time before you either find something else or craft something else better and the stats wouldn't continually increase. 

    • 1468 posts
    December 28, 2019 6:18 PM PST

    Some good points you've all made, but the one I'm going to concentrate on is the crafting point. I think crafted items should always be better than dropped items simply because you have to level up a whole new skill tree to craft items. Of course, this assumes that crafting is difficult and not just a click a button 1000 times to level up sort of deal. So assuming crafting is hard, it should produce items better than dropped items. Quest items and especially epic quests should generally be better than base crafted stuff but crafting quests and crafting epic quests should produce the best items in the game.

    • 1785 posts
    December 28, 2019 8:24 PM PST

    Alternative:  If there are quests for "epic" items, perhaps they should involve obtaining the help of a crafter (or being one yourself)?  Make it a social, collaborative effort, requiring help from several different people with different skillsets, instead of simply a personal journey.

    As an aside - when it comes to itemization all up, I think the more synergy there is between crafting and loot, the better things work out for everyone.  Crafted items should take looted components to make, and looted items should be able to be reforged or enhanced via crafting.  While there will need to be some things that remain purely looted or purely crafting, the average character should ideally be using a mix of both types of items.  This should be true regardless of whether we're talking about low levels, mid levels, or high levels.

    Welcome back btw Cromulent ;)

    • 2138 posts
    December 28, 2019 11:26 PM PST

    Maybe the concept of "Epic" needs ot be looked at differently. Instead of an item, perhaps an ability? or increase in skills/stats/traits? 

    Perhaps not ability as that tends to lead towards a skill tree specialization that is common in some RPG's and other MMO's where you can specialize or follow a skill tree to become a war wizard or a blood mage or somesuch. 

    Although I do like the idea of a epic that can be modified as you go, as an item that stays with you, however it still retains that BiS stigma. So how do you get rid of the BiS stigma yet still have something notable to the character that you can feel or is observable? (enviable? haha)

    Instead of forcing a crafting element on it (as some may not want to craft) by making it an ability it is always available yet unique, perhaps customizable based on a particular  skill specialization to make it unique. like a mage- knowing the art of summoning and the epic being associated with summoning, but this mage specialized in divination, so the epic is an ability to summon a portal that will push you ahead some non-game breaking distance. like a reverse coth. or another mage, also knowing the art of summoning, but specialising in evocation gets an epic ability to summon a solar flare. Which one s more useful? in gnashers room, where the door shuts? if the evocation mage evoked the flare, it would kill most of the adds and the named, and also many of the party members. that room would become an oven, whereas the divination mage would summon an exit out, but into where? if into rock, istant death.

    Just some ideas.   

    • 70 posts
    December 29, 2019 2:26 AM PST

    Look at the Legendary Item system in LOTRO ...

    • 627 posts
    December 29, 2019 4:36 AM PST
    The thing is with epic and legndary weapons are that they lock out all other weapon drops cus the epic are the best. Therefore they trivilize loot cus everyone just want the epic.

    VR need to do sitiational items, especially at endgame. So the epic wep might be Best DPS overall. But sometimes the player needs more resistance, a proc stun/slow or another damage type (blunt, piercing, slashing).

    Upgrading the epic wep to trivilize even more content (weapon drops) is just not health for the game overall.
    • 520 posts
    December 29, 2019 5:01 AM PST

    But it can be achieved so that many if not all epic/legendary items will stay relevant in the endgame - like epic sets of armour: there can be sets that completely nullifies certain element (or even heal you instead) at highest level (starting with 25% protection at level 20, increasing to 50% at level 30, then 75% at 40 and 100% at 50 - nd perhaps if level cap will be raised one day 125% at level 60 - so yo'd be healed for 25% of dmg - if done correctly you'd still need to be cautios about other dmg types anyhow, but it'll allow you to survive in the first place in some dungeons) - but there are multiple elements and depending on the zone you'd want to switch. Your epic weapon can have chance to apply stun, but it will only work on monsters in certain areas, sometimes you'd want weapon applying other effects like silence, weakness etc instead. Some zones may constntly drain your endurance and you'll need set that increases your regeneration or protects you from drain effects. And EPICS SHOULD lock out more common gear ONCE OBTAINED - they're EPICS after all!


    This post was edited by Hegenox at December 29, 2019 5:07 AM PST
    • 32 posts
    December 29, 2019 8:32 AM PST

    I like the idea that after a new expansion you get a quest to make your prior class epic an artifact that you can either place in your new class epic to make it stronger or give you a permanent stat increase.

    • 1479 posts
    December 29, 2019 8:42 AM PST

    I'm not agreeing on items that should evolve, but way more on items than have a long lifespan.

     

    The idea of an item evolving is quite locking the market and drops, others have been commenting on that also, but if your epic stays your main hand item for 6 years, and that for every class, then what use do weapons competing with that slot even have ?

    Of course not everyone will/might be able to get their epics, that will depends on how it is implemented, but that remain a long term goal very few will itemize against, or consider they will never have it.

     

    I liked, and still like class sets, epics and such, but either they are the only path of itemization, either they will be replaced at some point, because it's pointless to make item competition on the same slots as something you will never remove and just upgrade to a better and better version.

    • 1315 posts
    December 29, 2019 1:48 PM PST

    I am not sold on the idea of item rewards for class specific high difficulty quests. Those quests make more sense as the way you gain new or upgraded powers, class titles, and breakthrough events.

    Class titles could give access to item appearances. One can go out into the world and collect item upgrades and bring them back to the class quarter master. The quarter master can either trade for an item of equal or lesser power that you have the rank for or reforge the item with the class armor appearance you have unlocked that matches the base item type. Either way the result is no drop so an item leaves the game economy.

    I do like the idea of sacrificing multiple items to generate an upgrade to a matching base item. This can take many forms flavor wise. An item Vendor that specializes in trading a specific type of item will trade 10 of 1 tier for 1 of the next tier/level. Salvaging the magic from ten items to power crafting the next level of item. A living item that you ritually or literally feed matching items to slowly power up and add effects to based on what was feed to it. Finding a matching flavor mechanic to the Pantheon universe would be important to preserve immersion. I also like the idea of items that level up as you use them but drop to zero Exp when you trade them away. If you tie in mini quests or specific feats of strength to unlock the power of on otherwise tradeable item.


    This post was edited by Trasak at December 29, 2019 1:49 PM PST
    • 238 posts
    December 29, 2019 11:49 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I'm not agreeing on items that should evolve, but way more on items than have a long lifespan.

     

    The idea of an item evolving is quite locking the market and drops, others have been commenting on that also, but if your epic stays your main hand item for 6 years, and that for every class, then what use do weapons competing with that slot even have ?

    Of course not everyone will/might be able to get their epics, that will depends on how it is implemented, but that remain a long term goal very few will itemize against, or consider they will never have it.

     

    I liked, and still like class sets, epics and such, but either they are the only path of itemization, either they will be replaced at some point, because it's pointless to make item competition on the same slots as something you will never remove and just upgrade to a better and better version.

    I understand where you're coming from but I think it comes down to this

    If you as a game developer chose to add a class epic and integrate that item into class lore and class identity, only to then reduce it to an on use consumable, why add it in the first place? Wouldn't it have just been easier to make the on-use ability into a class spell that could be leveled up in future expansions instead? That spell would hold a lot more relevance in terms of class identity and lore, VS an item that is eventually going to become outdated and obsolete. When you make the decision to implement an item, tie it heavily into class identity, then you invalidate that item; what you have also done in this process is invalidated the time and effort into getting that item, as well as any class identity that item may have provided.  

    One of my issues with WoW-Legion was the class/spec weapon they gave you. You received this item at level 100 (98 if you want to be technical). This weapon lasted you until level 110 and as a result, no new weapons were added during the legion expansion and the only new models were reduced to transmog skins for these weapons. Ten levels stuck using the same weapon, leveling it up, and not switching it out. However, my biggest issue with the weapon is the fact that they just go inactive at the end of the expansion. These supper massive lore driven weapons, with identities that far preceded their actual implementation, gone in an instant. This was far worse than being stuck with the same weapon for 10 levels. It would have been nice to see these weapons transform into something at the end of the expansion that had lasting class relevance as well as acted as a tribute to the lore behind these weapons. 

    While this scenario is a bit different from how EverQuest has handled legendaries over the expansions, the same concept of invalidation is present in both to some degree. In both games, you have weapons that are heavily tied into class identity and have roots based in lore. Then over time, these items become reduced to being obsolete. The only major difference is that in EverQuest at least they still provide a buff, while in WoW they are just completely inactive and no longer provide anything of relevance to the classes. 

     

    • 520 posts
    December 30, 2019 4:20 AM PST

    Baldur said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I'm not agreeing on items that should evolve, but way more on items than have a long lifespan.

     

    The idea of an item evolving is quite locking the market and drops, others have been commenting on that also, but if your epic stays your main hand item for 6 years, and that for every class, then what use do weapons competing with that slot even have ?

    Of course not everyone will/might be able to get their epics, that will depends on how it is implemented, but that remain a long term goal very few will itemize against, or consider they will never have it.

     

    I liked, and still like class sets, epics and such, but either they are the only path of itemization, either they will be replaced at some point, because it's pointless to make item competition on the same slots as something you will never remove and just upgrade to a better and better version.

    I understand where you're coming from but I think it comes down to this

    If you as a game developer chose to add a class epic and integrate that item into class lore and class identity, only to then reduce it to an on use consumable, why add it in the first place? Wouldn't it have just been easier to make the on-use ability into a class spell that could be leveled up in future expansions instead? That spell would hold a lot more relevance in terms of class identity and lore, VS an item that is eventually going to become outdated and obsolete. When you make the decision to implement an item, tie it heavily into class identity, then you invalidate that item; what you have also done in this process is invalidated the time and effort into getting that item, as well as any class identity that item may have provided.  

    One of my issues with WoW-Legion was the class/spec weapon they gave you. You received this item at level 100 (98 if you want to be technical). This weapon lasted you until level 110 and as a result, no new weapons were added during the legion expansion and the only new models were reduced to transmog skins for these weapons. Ten levels stuck using the same weapon, leveling it up, and not switching it out. However, my biggest issue with the weapon is the fact that they just go inactive at the end of the expansion. These supper massive lore driven weapons, with identities that far preceded their actual implementation, gone in an instant. This was far worse than being stuck with the same weapon for 10 levels. It would have been nice to see these weapons transform into something at the end of the expansion that had lasting class relevance as well as acted as a tribute to the lore behind these weapons. 

    While this scenario is a bit different from how EverQuest has handled legendaries over the expansions, the same concept of invalidation is present in both to some degree. In both games, you have weapons that are heavily tied into class identity and have roots based in lore. Then over time, these items become reduced to being obsolete. The only major difference is that in EverQuest at least they still provide a buff, while in WoW they are just completely inactive and no longer provide anything of relevance to the classes. 

     

    100% agree.

    I think that one of the solutions would be that equipment dmg/def properties could  be based strictly by what materials they are made of (so lets say bronze sword dmg 2-9, silver sword 24-31 and so on) and enhancements would dictate the rarity (so common without any, magic, rare, unique, legendary, epic). Epic equipment could have always percentage based enhancements that would be great at any level and would be static, but the item could be reforged with different material to stay relevant at current level. If it comes to abilities that items provide, tier of the ability would be automatically scaled to the level range of the person that equips it (makes sense that more expirienced person can automatically better utilize a tool).

    • 627 posts
    December 30, 2019 7:00 AM PST
    I hope epic items wont be the Best, i Hope it got flavor and is best in certain situations, but other late game items are better in other situations. Most healthy for the game overall.
    • 557 posts
    December 30, 2019 7:30 AM PST

    Cromulent said:

    Some good points you've all made, but the one I'm going to concentrate on is the crafting point. I think crafted items should always be better than dropped items simply because you have to level up a whole new skill tree to craft items. Of course, this assumes that crafting is difficult and not just a click a button 1000 times to level up sort of deal. So assuming crafting is hard, it should produce items better than dropped items. Quest items and especially epic quests should generally be better than base crafted stuff but crafting quests and crafting epic quests should produce the best items in the game.

    I completely agree, Crom.

    I'd also suggest that while an item might be BIS in other games, on Terminus, you may want to only drag out your epic for specific types of encounters.  You may be a paladin and have your epic, but you may want to equip a different weapon if you are not fighting undead.   BIS is probably going to be situational.  You might want to have 3 BIS swords, of which that epic which could "grow with you" would only be one.

    • 500 posts
    December 30, 2019 7:36 AM PST

    BamBam said: I hope epic items wont be the Best, i Hope it got flavor and is best in certain situations, but other late game items are better in other situations. Most healthy for the game overall.

    Agreed. I would really like to see the whole BiS idea go the way of the dodo. I prefer the situational use of equipment based on the content being faced ie atmospheres, climates, mobs etc... Just my 2 coppers

    • 521 posts
    December 30, 2019 7:58 AM PST

    Grymmlocke said:

    BamBam said: I hope epic items wont be the Best, i Hope it got flavor and is best in certain situations, but other late game items are better in other situations. Most healthy for the game overall.

    Agreed. I would really like to see the whole BiS idea go the way of the dodo. I prefer the situational use of equipment based on the content being faced ie atmospheres, climates, mobs etc... Just my 2 coppers

     

    Thats going to mean keeping up with lots of gear, to outfit yourself on the go for changing situations.

    • 520 posts
    December 30, 2019 8:33 AM PST

    Grymmlocke said:

    BamBam said: I hope epic items wont be the Best, i Hope it got flavor and is best in certain situations, but other late game items are better in other situations. Most healthy for the game overall.

    Agreed. I would really like to see the whole BiS idea go the way of the dodo. I prefer the situational use of equipment based on the content being faced ie atmospheres, climates, mobs etc... Just my 2 coppers

    Well - Epic is more like a Tier of item to me than anything else - so like equivalent of SS grade and it would be weird for me if B grade items (craftable or not) become better. I  however feel that all Epics should be gained as a RECIPE - so that they would be craftable anyway (and perhaps during crafting process we would be able to choose the materials used and ultimately level range). The whole thing of gaining Epic items - that should be unique, but somehow everyone at end game have one felt weird - Epic recipes would make much more sense to me, not to mention it would boost player interactions even further!

    • 87 posts
    December 30, 2019 11:30 AM PST

    Cromulent said:

    One of the things that always seemed rather pointless to me in EverQuest is that you would get your epic and then an expansion or two down the road it was considered obsolete or at least relegated to being a useful clicky. What I'd like to see are items that gain stats as you level up. So say you got your epic at level 50 if the next expansion raises the level limit your epic would continue to grow. You could even do a "top-up" quest in the new expansion to get even better stat increases.

    I've been away from the Pantheon community for some time so if this has already been discussed my apologies, but I wanted to put this idea down on the forums to see what people thought about it.

    Yes one way is to use a boost your epic in every expansion and the problem is that you are kinda stuck with the same weapon as many have mention above.You could start using other stuff for situational exeptions but i think that would be somewhat limited.

    someone named abilitys/spells for epic but we already have that...

    So perhaps we could make a special slot where we only could put a epic item call it a signature class slot that could solve the problems with new gear and expansions...sadly it comes with is own problem in the visual spectrum like in eq you saw (in awe when someone had a epic weapon) the real deal. On the other side what the epic class item is can actually be more flexible.

    • 1479 posts
    December 30, 2019 11:50 AM PST

    Baldur said:

    I understand where you're coming from but I think it comes down to this

    If you as a game developer chose to add a class epic and integrate that item into class lore and class identity, only to then reduce it to an on use consumable, why add it in the first place? Wouldn't it have just been easier to make the on-use ability into a class spell that could be leveled up in future expansions instead? That spell would hold a lot more relevance in terms of class identity and lore, VS an item that is eventually going to become outdated and obsolete. When you make the decision to implement an item, tie it heavily into class identity, then you invalidate that item; what you have also done in this process is invalidated the time and effort into getting that item, as well as any class identity that item may have provided.  

    One of my issues with WoW-Legion was the class/spec weapon they gave you. You received this item at level 100 (98 if you want to be technical). This weapon lasted you until level 110 and as a result, no new weapons were added during the legion expansion and the only new models were reduced to transmog skins for these weapons. Ten levels stuck using the same weapon, leveling it up, and not switching it out. However, my biggest issue with the weapon is the fact that they just go inactive at the end of the expansion. These supper massive lore driven weapons, with identities that far preceded their actual implementation, gone in an instant. This was far worse than being stuck with the same weapon for 10 levels. It would have been nice to see these weapons transform into something at the end of the expansion that had lasting class relevance as well as acted as a tribute to the lore behind these weapons. 

    While this scenario is a bit different from how EverQuest has handled legendaries over the expansions, the same concept of invalidation is present in both to some degree. In both games, you have weapons that are heavily tied into class identity and have roots based in lore. Then over time, these items become reduced to being obsolete. The only major difference is that in EverQuest at least they still provide a buff, while in WoW they are just completely inactive and no longer provide anything of relevance to the classes. 

     

     

    Because gear and epic items shouldn't have the lifespan of a maggot. Taking Wow's medium item lifespan is a bad example, but taking Epics in EQ I used mine for probably 2 two 3 years (rogue). It depended of what raiding level you had, which items you got, and if you had no good haste belt the dagger was at least an offhand for a long, long time.

     

    It doesn't mean the item should have a decades of lifespan throught upgrades, but despite your ideas, most epics retained some use -even if you do not like the clicky change - which made them valuables expansions later. Would have they retained their "Best in slot" for the same time, Epics would no longer have been choices or accomplishments, but forced paths.