Note: This is long – sorry about that – but it’s been on my mind for the last few days and I wanted to make sure I posted it before the end of the year. I hope that it will spark a good discussion and conversation among the community, even if we don't all agree on every aspect of it.
Based on everything we have seen and heard from the development team recently, it seems clear that 2020 is going to be a big year for Pantheon. From the December 23rd stream, we know that most of the core systems are in place and functioning, and there’s a focus now on polishing and tightening up things as well as creating content. While there’s certainly far more work to be done, the game we saw in the stream is already a spiritual successor to EverQuest, and with the addition of new innovations like dispositions, climates, and ability customization in the Living Codex, it promises to have a very solid group adventuring experience when it’s ready for launch.
However, there’s a difference between simply being a solid offering, and really making an impact on the genre as a whole – between being a niche success that gets nods of appreciation from aging GenX gamers, or being a breakaway hit that attracts new and old gamers alike, and gets studios and their investors to sit up and take notice. Most of us are here because we have been disappointed again and again by the MMORPGs of the last 10 years – titles that strove to be games, rather than worlds, and then specialized in giving us treadmills and cash shops, instead of a rich and compelling experience. Pantheon is already better than those titles for us, it’s niche audience. But if we want Pantheon to be the start of a new chapter for the entire industry, then it needs to be more than that.
Here are three things that I think Pantheon still needs to do if we want it to really fulfill it’s potential and be the start of a new dawn for a stagnant genre.
First, Pantheon needs to eliminate Groundhog Day syndrome and make the world truly feel alive.
In almost every MMORPG, content is nearly completely static. Once you learn the maps and the encounters, every time you go back, nothing is different. Nothing has changed and nothing will. That zone you enjoyed when the game launched is still often the same years later. This leads to a tendency for us all to play through content and simply never return. This once-and-done philosophy is made worse by the design of instanced content in most games - often built around a single story or part of a story, with a tacked-on rewards treadmill to ask us to go relive it again (even though we’ve already experienced that story) to help fill out groups for other players.
Some studios have attempted to make their worlds feel more alive by periodically changing or revamping zones, creating “hard modes” with different paths, or introducing dynamic events that aren’t always happening. While these are noble efforts, they haven’t really hit the mark they’re aiming for, primarily because they either don’t go far enough, or they happen only during expansions or major patches.
Pantheon already has a leg up on these games through innovations such as NPC Dispositions and Manifestations, as well as climate and atmosphere systems that can make individual areas more dynamic if leveraged correctly. However, as we saw during the stream, if the team just stops there, the content will still be relatively stagnant once players learn those variations. We’ll quickly learn that when the Bloodthirsty version of the wolf boss appears, we’ll have to handle it differently from the normal version. Once the first explorers have documented an area, we’ll start to care more about what camp we’re headed to or what item the boss drops than we will about the monsters and encounters that we have to get through or past to get there. All that stuff will be known. We can look it up. Our motivation will be the destination, not the journey.
While making zones and their populations completely random would probably not provide a great experience for players, Pantheon still has an opportunity to do more than what we’ve seen so far. Whether it’s special events that only happen very rarely (rather than frequently like most games), larger and more varied spawns and spawn locations, or small chances of very rare items on loot tables, Pantheon can give us situations that we’re not expecting each time we go to an area. Content can still be familiar without becoming stale. Encounters can still be thematic without being trivialized through prior knowledge. Perhaps most importantly, the spirit of discovery can be preserved so that players always have a reason to go back to an area, whether on their first character or on a level-appropriate alt, because they have a strong chance of seeing, learning, or obtaining something new each time they go.
Not only is this good for replayability and keeping current players engaged; It’s good for the long-term health of Pantheon as well. We need to be thinking about the experience not just for players at launch, but for new players that join the game two or three years down the line. Many of us have seen examples of games that become so top-heavy that only a small portion of the world feels populated, or where “watch the video” is a requirement for new people joining group content. I think it’s safe to say that we don’t want Pantheon to turn into either of those types of games.
Second, non-combat content needs to offer depth, engagement, meaningful choices, and strong interdependence among players.
While we have seen a lot of the combat side of Pantheon, if the goal is to present a world for us to experience and explore, there’s another side of gameplay that still needs to be robust and implemented well. The overwhelming majority of the Pantheon experience cannot simply be about hacking down monsters and taking their stuff. Whether it’s chopping wood in the forest or baking a pie, solving a riddle to unlock a treasure or simply challenging your guildmates to a game of dice in the tavern while you wait for everyone to arrive, Pantheon needs to offer strong non-combat content that operates alongside (and hand-in-hand with) it’s combat content.
These things can’t be simply tacked on as “side games” for people to do when they’re not adventuring, but fully-fledged game experiences. They need to offer progression and depth, meaningful choices and engaging gameplay. They need to create shared needs and objectives between players and encourage players to help each other and socialize. They need to be strongly interconnected with exploration, adventuring, and yes even combat. They need to act not only as an impetus to draw people back in from their adventures, but as one to send people out into the world to have new adventures as well.
We know from the December Producer letter that a “basic” gathering and crafting system have been implemented and will likely be tested in Pre-Alpha 5. This is an important milestone, and a great start, but it’s important that the team doesn’t stop here. By the time Pantheon launches, there should ideally be almost as much to do that doesn’t involve swinging a weapon or casting a spell as there is content that requires those things. This will not only make Pantheon far more of a world than a game, contributing to subscriber retention as well as helping it appeal to more potential players - It will also provide many more opportunities to make all forms of content compelling and interrelated. Simply put, it will give us more reasons to go explore and adventure. As Pantheon progresses towards launch, we need to see the non-combat side of things continue to evolve together with its combat systems.
Third and finally, Pantheon needs to offer strong support for socialization and expression within the world.
What might seem like tertiary systems such as animated emotes, interactable furniture and environments, communications and chat functionality, community tools, appearance customization, and “flavor” NPCs are actually very important components of enabling a social experience for many players. There are certainly dedicated introverts out there who will simply want to go kill monsters and collect loot and don’t care about these things. However, there are just as many, if not more players who are energized by socializing and interacting with others, both in combat and outside of it. These “little things” serve to make Pantheon feel like much more of a world than simply a game, which will improve immersion, retention, and engagement among its players. Even something as simple as giving bards the opportunity to perform some music outside of combat in order to entertain other players, or adding a few different art models for armor that players can choose between, can go a long way towards improving the experience for everyone logged in to Pantheon. It’s the little touches that will make Terminus a place where we want to spend our time, even when we don’t have a specific character goal that we’re working towards.
While it’s true that no MMORPG can ever be perfect for everyone, I strongly believe that it’s very important that the team invests in these three areas both prior to launch, and post-launch as well. If the team is able to do this, it may make the difference between Pantheon simply being a nostalgia play for a niche audience, or really achieving the level of success that we all hope for, and showing the rest of the industry that there is a better path forward than the one they’ve been following. The good news is that none of this is out of reach for the development team. Based on what we’ve seen in the recent streams, it’s obvious that the team has the skills and talent to be able to do these things – and indeed, they may already be working towards them in the background. Either way, I wanted to call these areas out as being important. Too often, as players, we focus so much on the one or two aspects that we care the most about that we forget about everything else that really makes for a great experience in an MMORPG. If we want to see Pantheon really be successful, we can’t afford to let ourselves do that, regardless of what our own individual preferences may be.
Nephele: great post - agree 100%. I realize that a lean dev team has to prioritize resources carefully, so our desires for MORE may be shelved for a bit. Still, it's always good to provide VR with ideas / desires that will make a good game great, even if some features will inevitably be delayed. [E.g. bards! need bards before they can ever perform out-of-combat socialization].
StellarMind: Bard-for-the-day award for your summary. As with many of your posts (well, the non-PvP ones) - it made me smile. Bravo.
Nephele said:First, Pantheon needs to eliminate Groundhog Day syndrome and make the world truly feel alive.
I'll speak to this point as, for me at least, represents a critical part of MMOs that needs to be addressed. This sense of a world being truly alive is something no MMO has truly captured because the most common thing we see NPCs doing in the world is just standing there. I've said it before but it bears repeating: Unless the NPC is specifically a guard, meaning it is supposed to guard a given location, it should be moving around. Look at the streams of Black Rose Keep. Nealry every single NPC just stands there. Why? Yes, 2 guards standing at the front gates should stand there but everyone else? Why are they not walking around? But there should be guard patrols as well. Not just a single guard, but a squad. You're a merchant in a shop. Yes, you should be behind your counter but even you should have some points where you walk about your shop. Or you have staff walking about the place. NPC cities should be filled with various NPCs going about their business.
Even the latest Amberfaet streams what do we see? Group of NPCs just standing there staring off in random directions...waiting to be killed by players.
If you want to avoid this Groudog Day syndrome, get many more NPCs moving around. For a world is to actualy feel alive, it needs beings in it that act alive, that actively do things.
@Nephele First, the latest streams are nothing short of ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
Second, what is your issue with a niche game? They have already said this game isn’t for the masses, and that’s a good thing! Hundreds of thousands of people played Brad’s games & there will be many more people new to the genre who will realize this is the type of gameplay for them. Obviously, this game will be something new (duh). There will be new creativity, but with creativity always comes some inspiration. I would much rather inspiration (where necessary) come from oldchool (very similar to Brad’s vision ofc) than from mainstream. Nephele - the latest streams have little to do with nostalgia. Actually, the latest streams have EVERYTHING to do with making progress in the right direction of a GOOD game. I agree that this will be a highly community-based mmorpg, though. Just as it should be.
Everything is looking good from Visionary Realms thus far.
@Vandraad Agreed. Let’s get more NPC movement in Pantheon. I’m sure VR is going to lean this way and that’s good! For some inspiration - the oldschool Plane of Hate comes to mind!
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #aradune
Kumu said:Nephele: great post - agree 100%. I realize that a lean dev team has to prioritize resources carefully, so our desires for MORE may be shelved for a bit. Still, it's always good to provide VR with ideas / desires that will make a good game great, even if some features will inevitably be delayed. [E.g. bards! need bards before they can ever perform out-of-combat socialization].
StellarMind: Bard-for-the-day award for your summary. As with many of your posts (well, the non-PvP ones) - it made me smile. Bravo.
i appreciate the feedback! i blush with flecks of gold!
@vandraad npcs don't sit around waiting to be killed. they playing vr's new mobile card game: warwizards teh gathering. who's the real villians now? tahts right! the players! they invaded and interrupted a peaceful and pleasant game of cards!
Vandraad & Syrif:
Having spent some time on P99 recently, I was laughing while in Qeynos watching/remembering some of the shenanigans. One example: while most of the NPCs in Fish's Ale Tavern are static, McNeal Jocub often slips into the back (where the still is!) to brew more of the "illegal" Blackburrow Stout. Occasionally the Executioner shows up to make him pay the ultimate penalty for "crimes against the city of Qeynos!". Tumpy Irontoe, Anehan Treol, many other quest NPCs wander about town. Several guards patrol, a couple in pairs.
All this was implemented with 20 year old code, so we know it's possible. It adds significant depth to the game, immersion increases, as does challenge. The problem is that all of this takes time to weave the lore, write the scripts, plan the routes / activities, and then test it thoroughly to avoid unintended consequences (particularly with many disparate NPC actions in the same area). I expect VR will get there as they want the game to be fun and succeed, but am assuming this is work scheduled for Alpha, after the basic gameplay / NPC mechanics and world topology are solid.
I think this is a really well-written post and you clearly have put a lot of thought into how this game can succeed, which is great. While I generally respect your three tent-pole concepts, I don't agree with the thinking here.
I don't know about you, but I'm not banking on Pantheon being a WoW-killer or, as you put it, "a breakaway hit that attracts new and old gamers alike, and gets studios and their investors to sit up and take notice." I sure hope that's not how the VR team is thinking about it, because I think you'll find many of the folks putting chunks of money down on this game are "aging Gen X gamers" not being served by the types of mass-appeal experiences you're describing here. Further, there's nothing different about us -- I believe younger people will be sucked into the rich, challenging world of Terminus on its own merits and because of its own vision. It worked on us 20+ years ago. It wasn't for everyone back then, and it still won't be. But that's OK.
Let's take your three sections one at a time:
Overall though, I hope this doesn't fully line up with what VR's team believes. To be totally frank, designing gameplay to cater to the widest possible audience (let's be really honest, in service of maximizing profits) is what caused all the other MMOs on the market to drive us away so we could end up here, on a forum about a game that's been in development for years and won't come out for a long time. There's something important there that should be protected, IMO.
I'm very afraid that Pantheon may end up being something I dont want to play.
If it is so popular that it becomes what neph presents then it probably wont be for me.
I want the game that was originally advertised when I donated. A game that is not for everyone is not only ok, it is a requirement to stick to the original vision.
As time goes on and there is talk of changes like removing naked corpse runs I start to worry if VR has strayed to far from the original vision in order to appeal to more players?
philo said:
I'm very afraid that Pantheon may end up being something I dont want to play.
If it is so popular that it becomes what neph presents then it probably wont be for me.
I want the game that was originally advertiaed when I donated. A game that is not for everyone is not only ok, it is a requirement to stick to the original vision.
As time goes on and there is talk of changes like removing naked corpse runs I start to worry if VR has strayed to far from the original vision in order to appeal to more players?
well... i'm willing to pass on an las12 even though it's not what i want, but it appeals and brings more players to the table right? can't have it all.
one has to consider things change over time and if one is ignorant of change(not implying ignorance), then designs will fall into dust.
mmo games are an oddity. it's the type of games that must change with the ebb and flow of time. we can see many online games following suit to patch and change. shake ups(revamps) and player driven content(pvp).
for there to be a sustainable model for an mmo nowadays, there must be 1 of the 2 elements incorporated into a pve game. gamers are evolving, seeking more organic and involved gameplay, meaning predicatable patterned gameplay isn't desirable.
I have never played any of those games on that list...well Minecraft for maybe half an hour but that doesnt count.
None of those appeal to me in the slightest.
If we are attracting a large portion of those type of players then Pantheon has definitely strayed from the game that was advertised imho.
I do think that if they deliver the game that was presented originally, those of us who are here for the original vision of what Pantheon was will stick around long term.
Players who are tempted by other types of games will move on much more quickly.
philo said:I have never played any of those games on that list other than Minecraft for maybe half an hour.
None of those appeal to me in the slightest.
If we are attracting a large portion of those type of players then Pantheon has definitely strayed from the game that was advertised imho.
I do think that if they deliver the game that was presented originally, those of us who are here for the original vision of what Pantheon was will stick around long term.
Players who are tempted by other types of games will move on much more quickly.
hm.. my point was missed. it's not about attracting those player base to pantheon. it's about sustainablity. some of those games on the list are 5+ year old.
think about it like this:
what is the operational costs to keep an mmo running?
how many subscriptions do i need to maintain?
how much should i invest into development?
to break it down further, those games on that list is not subscription based. they make all there revenue via microtransactions.
as consumers, we(most ppl on the forums) want a subscription without microtransactions.
while there is nothing wrong with subs, i'm already aiming at a tight and competitive market.
15 dollars is really tough now with all the subs out there:
amazon prime
disney plus
netflix
hulu
apple tv
gym memberships
club memberships
etc
subscription is already exclusive.
stellarmind said:philo said:I have never played any of those games on that list other than Minecraft for maybe half an hour.
None of those appeal to me in the slightest.
If we are attracting a large portion of those type of players then Pantheon has definitely strayed from the game that was advertised imho.
I do think that if they deliver the game that was presented originally, those of us who are here for the original vision of what Pantheon was will stick around long term.
Players who are tempted by other types of games will move on much more quickly.
hm.. my point was missed. it's not about attracting those player base to pantheon. it's about sustainablity. some of those games on the list are 5+ year old.
think about it like this:
what is the operational costs to keep an mmo running?
how many subscriptions do i need to maintain?
how much should i invest into development?
This has been addressed by VR already. Pantheon is being designed to be sustainable with less than 100k subs.
I don't think it will require nearly the amount of players you seem to be implying.
philo said:This has been addressed by VR already. Pantheon is being designed to be sustainable with less than 100k subs.
I don't think it will require nearly the amount of players you seem to be implying.
i'm not implying any numbers. i'm not thinking about pantheon as a consumer. i'm thinking of it as a producer.
let's just say that i'm a super hardcore traditional mmo player.
i'm worth 15 dollars a month and i don't care about other thoughts or opinions and i want it my way, but i'm loyal.
is my value it worth keeping if i can potentially open up the floor to be inclusive and have 20 new subs for the loss of 1 avid subber?
let's say half of those turnover with me left with 10
and of those i gain 5 loyal subs.
the potential gain is worth it.
stellarmind said:philo said:This has been addressed by VR already. Pantheon is being designed to be sustainable with less than 100k subs.
I don't think it will require nearly the amount of players you seem to be implying.
i'm not implying any numbers. i'm not thinking about pantheon as a consumer. i'm thinking of it as a producer.
let's just say that i'm a super hardcore traditional mmo player.
i'm worth 15 dollars a month and i don't care about other thoughts or opinions and i want it my way, but i'm loyal.
is my value it worth keeping if i can potentially open up the floor to be inclusive and have 20 new subs for the loss of 1 avid subber?
let's say half of those turnover with me left with 10
and of those i gain 5 loyal subs.
the potential gain is worth it.
The big problem with your analogy is that what WoW has been doing basically this entire time sense BC and have basically done nothing but lose all it orginal costumers and tried to replace them with new ones, and a few expansions after they lose those costumers and replace them with new ones again, its a fericous cycle and honestly that what you get for trying to chase that carrott a little too hard and you end up leaving the stick somewhere and forgot how to go back to get it becuase the carrott looked to good but was always out of reach.
Basically let the Devs build their dream, their world and have people enjoy it the way they want you too, and not have the opinions of others dicate how you want to build your game, that simply playing a game you'll never win, but if you build thw wordl your truly proud of the community will know and feel that and will be more appreciated of it, or at least i know i will.
Riahuf22 said:The big problem with your analogy is that what WoW has been doing basically this entire time sense BC and have basically done nothing but lose all it orginal costumers and tried to replace them with new ones, and a few expansions after they lose those costumers and replace them with new ones again, its a fericous cycle and honestly that what you get for trying to chase that carrott a little too hard and you end up leaving the stick somewhere and forgot how to go back to get it becuase the carrott looked to good but was always out of reach.
glad you brought that up sir i knew someone was going to say something! what has wow done to enhance there gameplay? ddr+ twitch reaction gaming with dumbed down with little to no penality for mismanagement!
random loot boxes!
rmt!
cash shops!
in the case of wow, they wanted the microtransactions juice while drinking the subscription wine. ya can't have both. many dead mmos have tried already. it's one of the other.
to dive further, wow hasn't invested anything into their engine. there was talks of it back in wotk, but it all changed with activision merge. honestly blizzard died at this point. they've been walking dead and some players still play due to a sentimental attachment. add: wow is just riding the tailcoats of the story at this point.
i'm not calling for an extreme shift in design. take what works with the pile of trash mmos. i don't know numbers that pantheon projected.
going off what philo says, the game is sustainable at 100k subs.
can they hit that number within the first year?
how long can they operate in the red if they don't hit that mark? 2 years?
will it bring fresh faces into the scene so that they can grow, fine tune and fix the game?
yes i agree that serving those loyal fans is important, but long term, an mmo has to bring in new faces.
with that being said, pantheon does have alot going for it. i'm dum, but smart enough to realize the market is oversaturated and many mmo players are adrift.
oh since u edited, i'm more a fan of designer freedom, hence i'm not such a nazi about las12, although i would prefer 36, however, i can be happy at 24. i'm not a fan of appearence slot, because original depiction of the developer is desireable.
Me personally i wasn't talking anything about the microtransactions or much of that topic i was talking about gameplay, they made Vanilla became super famous, than they came out with BC and some players were mad that the dungeons were too hard, fired that person, than after a while towards the end they made sunwell and the players complained yet again, so that guy got fired, than they became lazy and revamped an old raid poorly, later on they made it to where certain dungeon gave out better gear than some of the raids in that current expansion did, than they came out with terrible raids after the fact all the way til Citadel came out, and than more people complained about how hard it was so they nerfed some of the encouters so it was a lot easier, and they basically did all of this for the sake of "Accessibility" which was a terrible decision.
So again LEt VR build their game and have us adapt to the playstyle they are wanting us to play and not have us dicate how hard/easy we want it to be, if its too hard for you to complete the content than the solution is easy, get better, or find friends that are better at clearing content, and than teach your friends who don't know what they are doing and teach them how to do it, The game shouldn't try to make certain content easier just becuase a ton of players are tired of not being able to clear the content, when they know that they can probably get gear elsewhere and keep learning the fight to be better prepared in both regards.
So again my complaint is how they managed their content and nothing else.
i should state that i'm looking for the successful launch of pantheon and long term sustainability of it.
i think they have the right cards and the perfect storm for it.
@riahuf btw i agree with what you are saying here and to clarify, i wasn't talking about microtransactions either.
it's like las12. they need to decide what to do with this soon. there are big dividing lines on this. in a way, it's simplifying the game and making it tedious for those who operate in the realms of 48 keybinds. now i get to have an elitist yell at me that i need to switch my bars for this this and this. then there's going to be an auto action bar swap addon. then i can't get into groups unless i have said addon.(there was a debate about whether or not we should allow addons so who knows?)
any veteran mmo player can look at the combat and conclude that it's simplied and much slower(puts more emphasis on decisionmaking preplanning rather than execution). this will bring new players into the space, but it alienates the more experienced ones. so far it the current state, i wouldn't recommend vr to expand the las unless they smack in a gcd system. this is a form of player expression that is limited, bringing it back to the topic at hand. yes it forces interdependency and that's what players here want.
i think they have the immersion aspect in spades. not much to be said there.
there isn't too much information on noncombat things. it would be preferable is this was a solo activity when i can't get into a group to do things.
okay i'm bored. was trolling. not to many toilets to clean today.
besides, it's my personal opinion and it doesn't matter lol. i'm just stirring the pot a little XD
Nephele said:
First, Pantheon needs to eliminate Groundhog Day syndrome and make the world truly feel alive.
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment along with difficulty and a good player economy.
If you look at popular games today like Fortnite, PUBG and Apex Legends, where the map or zone is redudant yet players keep going back because of one big thing: Dynamic content. (Cash shops aside and not being an MMO, Pantheon could learn from this aspect.)
I wanted to bring up a zone/raid idea and I apologize for the long scenario laid forth:
There is a raid zone with a king (zone boss) and his keep. His keep is part of a much larger outdoor zone and he has 3 children (3 mini bosses).
His children each have their specialty:
Child One - Keep Defense
Child Two - Tracking/Raiding Party
Child Three - the favorite and the mage/general of the army
In this zone, there could be laid forth branching scenarios that trigger different events or dynamically change the boss based out the order that you kill his children.
In Scenario A, you could kill the Tracker child first and the Favorite second, causing the king to further fortify his defenses, changing the dynamic of how you tactical attack teh keep and cause him to be much more tankier than normal.
In Scenario B, you could kill the Defensive Child first and the Favorite second, causing the king to go into a blind fury and leave his keep, joining his tracking Child in hunting party that tries to track down the raid group or causing the Boss to Roam aimlessly looking for Players.
In Scenario C, you could attempt to leave the favorite child last, causing him to grow in power and essentially making the king step down due to his two other children dying.
I could list more pathing scenarios, but I think you get the point.
From all of these different scenarios, it could also then cause a different loot for each boss based upon the order killed. Scenario A, the King could yield an epic Shield, Scenario B an epic bow etc.
You could have up to 16 different combinations with different loot tables and play dynamics. I understand that the coding could be quite difficult, but if players were not told up front by these types of possibilities, it could definitely cause quite a bit of playability and in some cases where certain scenarios are harder than others, create a much more diversified economy.
also ties real emotion and reactions to NPCs making them more than a static spawn camp that is indifferent or doesn't care that you killed his favorite child first or that he doesn't try to tactifully adjust how you are taking down his keep.
I know it's a rough idea but let me know your thoughts.
philo said:I have never played any of those games on that list...well Minecraft for maybe half an hour but that doesnt count.
None of those appeal to me in the slightest.
If we are attracting a large portion of those type of players then Pantheon has definitely strayed from the game that was advertised imho.
I do think that if they deliver the game that was presented originally, those of us who are here for the original vision of what Pantheon was will stick around long term.
Players who are tempted by other types of games will move on much more quickly.
I agree with every single part of this post, except I did not play Minecraft for even half an hour.