I always thought that pantheon combat animations looked a bit choppy and weird, the battle sequences never seemed smooth, but I was never able to put my finger on what it was exactly, I thought it was because the animations were still early in the development, but after watching the Coh Amberfaet stream from 12 december 2019 I noticed that the characters only “play out” the animation of the first attack used, what do I mean is, when the character is “playing out” one animation (for example shield block where the character is holding is shield up to block), all other instant cast attacks/abilities used during the length of that initial animation will not occur, making the combat rather static, because most of the times only one animation is displayed even though the character did 4-5 other actions.
I gathered some short clips from Coh’s streams to better display what I’m talking about, I also put together a few clips to show specifically what each animations is supposed to look like and what the combat log shows when that ability/attack is used, so it’s easier to understand the clips were some animations get “lock out/overlapped”.
(Twitch clips only last 60 days so if you’re reading this after that time, you’ll have to look up the video times for yourself)
Youtube video with the stream I’m talking about - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYaoi2Y4XvQ
The numbers represent the place the abilities are in the action bar, in the middle of the stream coh changes the place of some abilities that’s why they have 2 numbers.
1 – auto attack – basic weapon sing, to the left and right
Combat log – “You slash “NPC name” for X damage.
For some reason a single swing sometimes show 2 damage lines in the combat log, other times it shows 3 lines, and sometimes only 1 line of damage in the combat log, don’t know why that happens
https://clips.twitch.tv/EndearingPhilanthropicFennelBrokeBack
2 – Shout? - shout animation towards the target (time 3:45)
https://clips.twitch.tv/ImpossibleSavageSandstormSmoocherZ
3 – Charge (storm) - quick running animation (time 3:35)
Combat log – “you storm the battlefield” (in the chat box next to coh’s face, blue text)
https://clips.twitch.tv/UnsightlyFantasticDelicataJonCarnage
4/5 – Shield Block - raises shield (time 3:55) also gets a short duration buff
https://clips.twitch.tv/DiligentDeafLatteVoHiYo
5/4 - Taunt - Points at target with sword and slits throat (time 3:48)
https://clips.twitch.tv/HonestEnjoyableWheelAMPEnergy
Another clip of the taunt, because the first one was weird because of the bow, and the character didn’t have the weapon/shield equipped
https://clips.twitch.tv/AuspiciousBraveJamBIRB
6/7 – angering blow – Hits the target with the pommel of the weapon (time 4:03) couldn’t get a clean clip with only the angering blow, the first animation is the taunt one that we also saw above
Combat log – “you anger “NPC name” for X damage.”
https://clips.twitch.tv/CrispyWanderingFalconPeteZaroll
7/6 – Strike of breaking - Jumps up in the air and stabs the target (time 4:16)
https://clips.twitch.tv/EphemeralGlutenFreeSandpiperSwiftRage
Combat log – “you smash “NPC name” for X damage.”
8 – Shield Slam – slams the target with the shield (time 6:03)
https://clips.twitch.tv/HealthyLovelyFlyKappaClaus
9/0/ – banners – raises a hand and “calls” the banner down (time 4:07; 4:55)
https://clips.twitch.tv/AbnegateSteamyHeronSquadGoals
Animation “overlap/cancel/stuck" examples:
3:35 – https://clips.twitch.tv/LovelySincereMochaNotATK
Coh uses the charge and immediately turns on the auto-attack, but because he’s still far away it triggers the bow shot auto-attack and deals 34 damage to the spider, but the bow animation never happens, but if you look at the combat log you can see the bow damage happened.
3:50 – https://clips.twitch.tv/ProductiveGracefulBatWoofer
If you need you can slow down the speed of the clip. This short clip is just a complete mess, coh is in melee range of the spider, but he losses aggro, proceeds to use the shield block while the spider is running away, so he’s no longer in melee range and the character automatically switches to the bow/ranged auto-attack mode (it’s displayed in the action bar, the crossed sword image in the 1st slot changes to a bow. Note that he still holds the shield because he started doing the shield block animation before the spider got away from melee range, and notice that when the charge ends, he suddenly has a bow equipped while at melee range for no reason)
Right after pressing shield block coh also presses charge, so his character slides trough the ground while still maintaining the shield block animation and simultaneously shooting the bow because the target was away from melee range for 0,1 seconds.
So essentially in a 0.2 seconds of time coh did 3 almost simultaneous actions, he raised the shield, charge the target and shot the bow. Only the shield block animations happens, and it overwrites all other animations/actions pressed after that. The charge animation gets bugged and Coh just slides through the ground and the bow shot animation never happens.
4:00-4:03 – https://clips.twitch.tv/TubularDeadHippoMoreCowbell
Does 0 auto-attacks during this time but out of nowhere 2 slashes show in the combat log, and 1 miss (the miss is the attack animation we see I think)
4:12 – https://clips.twitch.tv/SassyPrettiestPhonePogChamp
1 auto misses (this animation is played correctly) but the combat log shows a critical hit and a normal hit?
5:40 – https://clips.twitch.tv/SillyExpensivePancakeAliens
Uses taunt (long animation) uses shield block before the taunt animation finishes and the shield block animation never happens, but he still gets the buff from shield block seen on the buff bar, and shield block goes on cooldown. So we can assume that if an ability is used while and animation is still playing the animation from the “queued” attack never happens
5:50 – 6:15 –https://clips.twitch.tv/FunnyAmericanDiamondUWot
A sequence where coh uses his attacks but waits for the current attack animation to finish (probably not on purpose) before using the next one and the combat looks smooth enough, and notice how most auto-attacks animations are played, because he’s weaving his spells in the middle of the auto-attack timer
11:50 – https://clips.twitch.tv/DignifiedCourteousCobraFloof
Coh uses 2 skills in quick succession, strike of breaking and angering blow, the animations of attacks/spells used while other animations are still playing never show up, but here we can also see something interesting, the Strike of breaking damage happens immediately after coh presses the button, even before the animation plays out (in the combat log “you smash a forgotten icebreaker for 94 damage.”
Coh immediately after pressing strike of breaking also presses angering blow, while the animation of strike of breaking is still playing out, the angering blow goes into cooldown and deals its damage (without its animation ever being played out) this tells us that spamming every single attack (that does not have a cast time) at the same time actually works for doing burst damage, because again you can see in the chat that both attacks damage occur before their animations play out or even before those animations hit the target, and they can be used in the same 0,1 second window and deal damage in that window.
Screenshots frame by frame
When strike of breaking is used - https://imgur.com/a/onUBZXg
When Angering blow is used - https://imgur.com/a/CBFuoLY
As you can see both damage effects happen before the first animation is even complete.
11:55 – https://clips.twitch.tv/EnergeticSmoggyLocustSeemsGood
Shield block animation is happening and coh presses taunt, taunt goes on cooldown, the mob gets the taunt debbufs but the taunt animation never plays out.
17:25 – https://clips.twitch.tv/CrackyFlirtyHamburgerTooSpicy
Coh is fighting a caster and when he uses is strike of breaking the attack animation never plays because he gets hit by a spell and gets locked into a “took a hit animation”.
These things happen constantly thought out the stream, and I also noticed that most auto-attacks animations never get played, because the character is stuck doing other animations. The same goes for “taking a hit animation” they also don’t show because the character is “stuck” doing something else.
18:25 – https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticInnocentTrollMrDestructoid
We can see a mob take multiple hits and not react to a single one, only the reacts when he gets stunned (probably because the stun as an animation tied to hit)
53:05 – https://clips.twitch.tv/DarkBrainyOpossumHumbleLife
An extreme case of the animation “lock” where Coh uses 4 attacks and only the first one gets animated, He uses taunt, followed by quickly clicking “strike of breaking”, “Angering blow” and “shield slam” because the Taunt animation is so long, none of the other attacks get their animations played out, but they still do damage as showed in the combat log.
Main takeaways, instant cast abilities/attack lack a global cooldown or some other mechanic like frame locking, which allows players to spam multiple abilities in the same 0.1-0.4 second window, leading to the overlapping of action and animations, resulting in the game only “showing” the first animation, and consequently the appearance of a static combat because most animations are not displayed.
Character need a priority list of what animation they should play, because in mmos multiple things can happen to a character at the same time (NPC or player) but the goal should be to make the gameplay fell responsive and things should happen when you press a button, currently with this system that does not happen.
A good rule of thumb for player characters is prioritizing the animations of attacks/abilities over auto-attacks, next it should be displayed quick “stagger/impact/taking a hit animations” that don’t interrupt the animation your character is already doing, just show a small impact or movement of taking damage, and the last in the animation priority for player character should be to fill the “dead” time between attacks and abilities with auto-attacks and other passive effects.
For NPC important telegraphs attacks and spells should be the priority, the NPC’s auto attacks can happen naturally but don’t interrupt then if the NPC takes a hit, just make him do a small stagger / impact animation, but still allow the NPC to finish its auto-attacks.
Sometime NPCs are taking from 5 different players (make them just stagger a bit, just a small impact display of a players ability and attack)
*This next part is just a thought of mine about how to make melee combat simple, but extremely engaging and hard to master, if you don’t like just ignore it, and don’t focus on this because as I said it’s just a thought that I had about MMO combat*
If anyone played Hunter in vanilla wow or Burning Crusade it’s the auto-shot steady shot weaving mechanic applied to melee combat, and with instant cast abilities counting towards the auto-shot recovery timer.
Another thing that could be done is giving importance to ability weaving in the middle of the auto-attacks recovery timer and make it an actual gameplay mechanic. You try to use your attacks/abilities right after your character finished and auto-attack, as to not interrupt the auto-attack flow, so for example if you used an ability to close to the next auto-attack, that next auto-attack would not happen because you “overlapped it”, but if you did it correctly and used an ability right after an auto-attack finished you would keep the auto-attack “flow” intact and maximize your swings.
This would avoid the melee ability spam gameplay, because you always want to weave your abilities in the middle of auto-attacks, and it would make melee gameplay have a high skill cap, because managing your swing timer in the middle of tense encounter situations would be extremely hard to master.
TLDR: Using multiple attacks/abilities in quick succession in a short time frame (0.1 – 0.2 seconds) makes your character only play out the first animation all other animations never happen, but their damage and effects still happen.
I know the game is still in pre-alpha and it can change and will more than likely be changed, this is just my piece of constructive feedback.
TLDR,
I can see you put a lot of work into that, but I'm not going to read it all. I will however point you to the last 5-10 min of the December 23rd Developer Stream, Where Jopa talks about the animations and that it will be a big focus throughout the next year.
In other words I'm trying to say they are aware of animation problems, and I'm sure THEY will read your post in the entirety to see how it compares to what you have noticed. So good timing!
For some reason a single swing sometimes show 2 damage lines in the combat log, other times it shows 3 lines, and sometimes only 1 line of damage in the combat log, don’t know why that happens
That's double and triple auto-attack. You have a chance to hit 1-3 times per swing. That's supposed to happen, it's a passive skill.
Another thing that could be done is giving importance to ability weaving in the middle of the auto-attacks recovery timer and make it an actual gameplay mechanic. You try to use your attacks/abilities right after your character finished and auto-attack, as to not interrupt the auto-attack flow, so for example if you used an ability to close to the next auto-attack, that next auto-attack would not happen because you “overlapped it”
Just no.
Correct Zorkon :)- We will read the post in its entirety haha.
Thank you Jpedrote - I know you put a lot of time into this and just wanted to let you know I saw it and others as well. If I could speak more to your points I would, but that's just not my place haha. Again thank you for the quality breakdown and feedback! Awesome job and well presented.
@Zorkon with the holidays didn't have the time to watch the new stream in it's entirity, just skimmed trough it, it's always great to hear they're not forgetting about animations!
@Fragile Humm, it's a bit wierd, wouldnt it be more pratical to just have that damage distribution done some other way, like having glancing hits, partial hits and full hits, instead of showing mutiple damage lines, in the end it's the same, just another dps variable, thanks for clearing it up! had no idea why the combat log was displaying it.
@Saicred thanks for the quick reply! really miss your videos man. Just trying to help make Pantheon the best possible game. What's holding this game from exploding it's the animations, it's what everyone that likes this type of game complains about, the graphics are already on point, art is awesome, combat mechanics and gameplay is constantly improving, the only lacking area is the animations, and after they get implemented the game will get so many new backers it will be insane, but the animations need to be on point and very responsive, to me the standar for responsive animations is wow, if Pantheon can do something close to that it will be amazing! keep up the great work and good holidays!
@BamBam Ye I hope they put on some restrictions to how many action you can at the same time, it doenst need to be a GCD, it can be an animation lock, or something similar.
jpedrote said:@Zorkon with the holidays didn't have the time to watch the new stream in it's entirity, just skimmed trough it, it's always great to hear they're not forgetting about animations!
@Fragile Humm, it's a bit wierd, wouldnt it be more pratical to just have that damage distribution done some other way, like having glancing hits, partial hits and full hits, instead of showing mutiple damage lines, in the end it's the same, just another dps variable, thanks for clearing it up! had no idea why the combat log was displaying it.
@Saicred thanks for the quick reply! really miss your videos man. Just trying to help make Pantheon the best possible game. What's holding this game from exploding it's the animations, it's what everyone that likes this type of game complains about, the graphics are already on point, art is awesome, combat mechanics and gameplay is constantly improving, the only lacking area is the animations, and after they get implemented the game will get so many new backers it will be insane, but the animations need to be on point and very responsive, to me the standar for responsive animations is wow, if Pantheon can do something close to that it will be amazing! keep up the great work and good holidays!
@BamBam Ye I hope they put on some restrictions to how many action you can at the same time, it doenst need to be a GCD, it can be an animation lock, or something similar.
Do you mean for the Double and Triple attacks?
Like instead of it saying
You Swing for 67 Damage
You Swing for 75 damage
You Swing for 48 Damage
You would rather it say:
You Triple Attack for 200 Damage
if so i can get down with that, doesn't make a huge deal for me either way but if it something as small as this i wouldn't mind if they tweeked the combat log a little bit so people can see whats happening insterad of being confused by how you see so many lines and not seeing how it actually all happened.
As For the whole "Shield Block" covering up other animations, i think in my honest opinion, i would shorten the Shield Block animation, like make it do a small buff around the shield for 2 seconds of it duration but not a "True" animation of you using the ability, simply to free up space of time so the animations can be a bit more accurate to what is happening throughout the fight. The only reason i am pointing out shield block and not the other abilties is that "Shield Block" is on an extremely short CD and it definately was filling up a ton of the animations we were seeing.
I think a lot of the animations i was okay with, cept for Tuant at close range, that was a bit hard to watch at times, i could see like a a simple "Roar" animation be good enough in these situations.
Ye shield block animations would be better if it was just a quick 0.5 second raise of the shield and an aura around the warrior shield, isntead of a 4 seconds static shield hold up, and the warrior would only raise the shield again if he actually blocks and hit! (unless the shield block mechanic gets change and during the entirity of the shield block animation the warrior couldnt do any other action, then the shield being help up during a long period of time would make sense)
That's a great idea, making the taunt animation a close range just a small shout, and at long range the current animation.
That would be a nice way of clearing up the clutter in the combat log, not that I'm going to look at it during the fight, but it would make it easier to see were your damage is coming from.
Was there a global cooldown happening when abilities were used? Seems like this animation collision might be because abilities are able to be fired off all at the same time. If they have a global cooldown that forces a delay before the next ability can be used, then as long as the animations happen fast enough to be finished before the global cooldown, these kind of animation collisions shouldn't happen.
As for auto swings, it's probably a given that some of them might not show the swing animation if the player is also chaining abilities that trigger their own animations. Although again if an ability doesn't delay auto attack swings then it probably shouldn't be a long complicated animation either. So if shield block is an instant cast and isn't going to delay your auto swing then it should probably have an instant animation that happens so quick that they can then show the auto attack swing animation without seeming to cut anything off.