Wow there are a lot of narrow minded people in this Forum with little to no imagination. There are two main differences between a "dance" on a vertical pole and one on a horizontal pole.
The direction of the pole, and what people associate it with. One is associated with Strippers (or OMG "porn" rotflmao) the other is associated with skimpy outfitted under age girls on prime time television called Gymnastics.
Get over it people, look past the outfit and the character model and instead at the approximately 8 second animation using what is, or could be an epic weapon.
Also I was not suggesting the animation that came with using the weapon in combat. I was suggesting auxiliary, add on, additional animations that could be quested to be used out of combat once one completed there epic weapon quest. Some of you may not of heard of a thing called Horizontal Progression.
Large animations like this one I showed (I counted 8 secounds) could easily be quested "training" that people could add to their characters after they already have the Epic.
You raiders (15%) could skip these quest and go repeatedly kill your boss over and over, the rest of us could follow these lines if we choose.
Keno Monster said:Baldur said:I'm going to keep this response light. I think when you start trying to censor adult themes you also limit your capabilities regarding the depiction and implementation of darker themes and tones.
I am not saying that players need to be allowed to have their characters run around completely nude, or engaging in explicit adult activity. However, for reference, EverQuests main mascot was always depicted in adult lighting. She always had more skin showing than not, and the game's Teen rating on release reflected this more adult mindset.
This Teen rating also allowed for the expansion and expression of some of the darker themes within the game such as undead character models, necromantic lore, dark elf culture, some of the lore regarding specific deities... etc.
I think you're gonna have a hard time making that logic stick. Sexy animations have nothing to do with setting a dark tone in a game. The suggestion that Firiona Vie's cleavage allowed them to express dark elf culture is laughable. An easy argument could be made to the complete opposite, that "showing skin" was pandering to teen boy culture and yet they were still able overcome that with actual, mature, themes.
1. I never said anything mentioning sexy animation in relation to the OP of this topic. My response was about adult themes and their censorship leading to censorship of darker themes and how a game's rating allows for these themes to be explored..
2. You right, the argument that Firiona Vie's cleavage allowed the devs in EverQuest to express darker tones is a stupid argument one that lacks common sense. It is not the argument I was trying to make. I believe what I said was the Teen rating allowed for the expression of the darker themes. How Firiona was presented though was a reflection of this overall rating. Upon re-reading my post I can see how it appears that my argument was her design choice was the sole reasoning behind the initial rating. I'm sorry if there was some perceived confusion caused by my word choice and flow.
3. Your right about the argument could be made that her attire was used to appeal to teen boy culture. The argument that sex sells really isn't an argument, just a cultural fact.
4. As for them coming up with mature themes. I can tell you that MMO developers work on content years in advance and I can tell you most things that happen in MMO's aren't just random coincidence. I can assure you that they were planning lore long before Firona Vie was finalized in design choice. I can also assure you that her final design was a strategically implemented marketing device depicting the mature concepts of the game, being appealing to men, and preventing any black lash from disgruntled parents of children who may have consumed the game.
if being attracted to sexy is a crime... well i'm just downright a scroundrel ^_~
from left to right:
ogres in a string bikini, skar is topless with a loincloth, archaei is topless with pants, human is actually dressed, dark myr 2 pc bikini, elf a pretty nice somewhat revealing dress, halfling wearing belts?, gnome not sure what's going on there, dwarf appropriately dressed.
for the most part, they are all dressed accordingly to their culture. some of it could be considered very sexy. just like certain animations. it wouldn't be farfetched to have an elf dance like a ballerina, a dark myr like a indian belly dancer, ogre dancing like terry crews muscle flexing, human doing disco, halfling break dancing. gnomes don't dance. they too srs for that. and dwarves can do irish dancing stuff. the skar can do that booty pop. seems appropriate.
it's a diverse world with different races and cultures.
oh i got it gnomes can do a head bop.
you know bdo does this where you do chain quests to unlock animations. that could be added later down the road :D
Baldur said:Keno Monster said:Baldur said:I'm going to keep this response light. I think when you start trying to censor adult themes you also limit your capabilities regarding the depiction and implementation of darker themes and tones.
I am not saying that players need to be allowed to have their characters run around completely nude, or engaging in explicit adult activity. However, for reference, EverQuests main mascot was always depicted in adult lighting. She always had more skin showing than not, and the game's Teen rating on release reflected this more adult mindset.
This Teen rating also allowed for the expansion and expression of some of the darker themes within the game such as undead character models, necromantic lore, dark elf culture, some of the lore regarding specific deities... etc.
I think you're gonna have a hard time making that logic stick. Sexy animations have nothing to do with setting a dark tone in a game. The suggestion that Firiona Vie's cleavage allowed them to express dark elf culture is laughable. An easy argument could be made to the complete opposite, that "showing skin" was pandering to teen boy culture and yet they were still able overcome that with actual, mature, themes.
1. I never said anything mentioning sexy animation in relation to the OP of this topic. My response was about adult themes and their censorship leading to censorship of darker themes and how a game's rating allows for these themes to be explored..
2. You right, the argument that Firiona Vie's cleavage allowed the devs in EverQuest to express darker tones is a stupid argument one that lacks common sense. It is not the argument I was trying to make. I believe what I said was the Teen rating allowed for the expression of the darker themes. How Firiona was presented though was a reflection of this overall rating. Upon re-reading my post I can see how it appears that my argument was her design choice was the sole reasoning behind the initial rating. I'm sorry if there was some perceived confusion caused by my word choice and flow.
3. Your right about the argument could be made that her attire was used to appeal to teen boy culture. The argument that sex sells really isn't an argument, just a cultural fact.
4. As for them coming up with mature themes. I can tell you that MMO developers work on content years in advance and I can tell you most things that happen in MMO's aren't just random coincidence. I can assure you that they were planning lore long before Firona Vie was finalized in design choice. I can also assure you that her final design was a strategically implemented marketing device depicting the mature concepts of the game, being appealing to men, and preventing any black lash from disgruntled parents of children who may have consumed the game.
Then I apologize for my tone, this thread is absolutely absurd. Thanks for the reply.
The only thing I got from reading the main post of this...and I don't mean to be blunt here, is that the OP's wife got xcited over something that she has taken up as a new hobby and now wants it in the game. Everyone has had that ONE hobby that they obsess over for a bit because they find it very fun or very entertaining, but this is pushing it a bit too far. I would have to say no to this. This would be like me asking, if not demanding, the VR team to add crochet in as a crafting skill because I find it rather entertaining and fun. Just because one person got excited for something like this, doesn't mean that it NEEDS to be in the game. it doesn't matter what type of pole dancing is done, just because your wife wants it in game because she has taken up as a new hobby doesn't mean it should be in the game. That's how I read the original post, correct me if I'm wrong on this.
I think certain things can be lifted from the RL and included in pantheon so long as they are culturally cool.
What I mean is: in the OP's instance, ok his wife wants to do something with a pole, hmm, isn't there a martial art move that is really hard to master called monkey-looks-at-horizon-from-top-of-tree, or something? where the trainee is working with a staff and has to maintain balance on the staff? I saw it on a documentary about a shaolin monk trying to make it to the next level, display thing once, and another american display where some dude did it flawlessly- like held it for alot of seconds and even held his other hand up over his eyes and looked to right and left before coming down.
Maybe the staff/pole thing would be appropriate only for monks,
Bbut what about for chanters? maybe the indian hand dance? like where multiple arms seem to come out come out from each side of the body and make angles and designs at the wrists- that could be sort of mezmerizing- like a peacocks flail of tail feathers, but it would be like that indian dance with the many arms.
I had to watch the gif a second time, the first time I thought she was wearring white pants, then after the replies, I took a second look wondering what they thought was so sexuall about the armor. LOL.
Turns out, she's just pasty white. ;)
Keno Monster said:Baldur said:Keno Monster said:Baldur said:I'm going to keep this response light. I think when you start trying to censor adult themes you also limit your capabilities regarding the depiction and implementation of darker themes and tones.
I am not saying that players need to be allowed to have their characters run around completely nude, or engaging in explicit adult activity. However, for reference, EverQuests main mascot was always depicted in adult lighting. She always had more skin showing than not, and the game's Teen rating on release reflected this more adult mindset.
This Teen rating also allowed for the expansion and expression of some of the darker themes within the game such as undead character models, necromantic lore, dark elf culture, some of the lore regarding specific deities... etc.
I think you're gonna have a hard time making that logic stick. Sexy animations have nothing to do with setting a dark tone in a game. The suggestion that Firiona Vie's cleavage allowed them to express dark elf culture is laughable. An easy argument could be made to the complete opposite, that "showing skin" was pandering to teen boy culture and yet they were still able overcome that with actual, mature, themes.
1. I never said anything mentioning sexy animation in relation to the OP of this topic. My response was about adult themes and their censorship leading to censorship of darker themes and how a game's rating allows for these themes to be explored..
2. You right, the argument that Firiona Vie's cleavage allowed the devs in EverQuest to express darker tones is a stupid argument one that lacks common sense. It is not the argument I was trying to make. I believe what I said was the Teen rating allowed for the expression of the darker themes. How Firiona was presented though was a reflection of this overall rating. Upon re-reading my post I can see how it appears that my argument was her design choice was the sole reasoning behind the initial rating. I'm sorry if there was some perceived confusion caused by my word choice and flow.
3. Your right about the argument could be made that her attire was used to appeal to teen boy culture. The argument that sex sells really isn't an argument, just a cultural fact.
4. As for them coming up with mature themes. I can tell you that MMO developers work on content years in advance and I can tell you most things that happen in MMO's aren't just random coincidence. I can assure you that they were planning lore long before Firona Vie was finalized in design choice. I can also assure you that her final design was a strategically implemented marketing device depicting the mature concepts of the game, being appealing to men, and preventing any black lash from disgruntled parents of children who may have consumed the game.
Then I apologize for my tone, this thread is absolutely absurd. Thanks for the reply.
No problem I am sorry if my tone was in any way harsh. There are so many trolls on the forums/ facebook page you never know who is trying to be genuine vs who is just trying to start something for the sake of starting something.
To be completely real though when it comes to the OP in this thread, I think that there are some mature concepts that don't really provide any game enrichment and thus are not needed. If you could prove that a race's culture has pole dancing tied deep within their lore, then I would be ok with a race-specific (potential gender-specific based on lore) animation related to this lore. However, if you want it in the game just to have it in the game then it's not really enriching at that point it's just out of place.
Sorry, but people will see that animation and think "stripper pole dance" not "cool empowered woman exercising and dancing in whatever way she feels comfortable and powerful whether sexually or not".
May as well have the male characters tear off their armor in two handfuls and perform pulsating press-ups in the remaining loin cloth. "It's just a practical quick-release method for armor, followed by some physical training". Yeah. Sure. *cough* Magic Mike *cough* goodbye immersion.
All due respect to the OP's wife and her choice of dance/exercise, there is a whole big feminist debate around that kind of thing that we just don't need to have in Terminus.
Personally, I think dance emotes are generally over-the-top silly anyway, never mind ones with this kind of potentially controversial nature. They are almost always 'parody' of real-life pop-culture moves that are unimmersive.
Sorry if that's a killjoy.
OCastitatisLilium said:The only thing I got from reading the main post of this...and I don't mean to be blunt here, is that the OP's wife got xcited over something that she has taken up as a new hobby and now wants it in the game. Everyone has had that ONE hobby that they obsess over for a bit because they find it very fun or very entertaining, but this is pushing it a bit too far. I would have to say no to this. This would be like me asking, if not demanding, the VR team to add crochet in as a crafting skill because I find it rather entertaining and fun. Just because one person got excited for something like this, doesn't mean that it NEEDS to be in the game. it doesn't matter what type of pole dancing is done, just because your wife wants it in game because she has taken up as a new hobby doesn't mean it should be in the game. That's how I read the original post, correct me if I'm wrong on this.
You're close, I aperantly spent too much time on her motivation for showing it to me and not enough on what I was proposing. in my OP I repeatdly said this Gif was too sexualized even for my taste.
"first I totally know about VR and many male players here and their reluctance to accept the subjective "Overly Sexualized" characters and outfits"
"I'm in the middle, there needs to be a compromise."
"Yes Brad's wishes are that his daughter can play (I agree!)"
"think toned down dress"
From my post..
Zorkon said:
So look at this Gif,(assuming I can figure out how to link it) think toned down dress, and think for all classes an epic animation to go with an epic weapon.... maybe a separate quest to add the animation.
Tried to correct that later but many had already gone into a frenzy. I wasn't simply talking about Pole Dancing, I was talking more about the out of combat annimation its self. People couldent see past the Dreaded Pole Dance and see the annimation itself.
I wasen't talking about the Epic Weapon Battle annimation that would/may come with it eather, I'm talking about add on's "maybe a separate quest to add the animation" that could be triggerd with an Emote along with /dance/ or /sit Something to keep people busy while there waiting for Epic2.0. and NONE of such things would need to be a pole dance, in another message I listed several possabilitys.
Stellarmind mentioned they are already doing something like this in bdo,
stellarmind said:you know bdo does this where you do chain quests to unlock animations. that could be added later down the road :D
(Thanks Stellar) I'm going to look more into this and see if I can find what there doing.
Zorkon said:And yes, I know your all jealous of my wife right now, get over it get off the computer and go find you a good woman that will game with you!
Does your wife have a younger sister?,,,lol I am looking for my next gaming girlfriend. But she also has to be athletic, artistic, down to earth and kind. These type of women don't grow on trees, ...or poles. Garycon is 30 minutes away from my house, there will be atleast 3 women there in March...lol
Oh.... and in before the lock....
Caine said:Zorkon said:And yes, I know your all jealous of my wife right now, get over it get off the computer and go find you a good woman that will game with you!
Does your wife have a younger sister?,,,lol I am looking for my next gaming girlfriend. But she also has to be athletic, artistic, down to earth and kind. These type of women don't grow on trees, ...or poles. Garycon is 30 minutes away from my house, there will be atleast 3 women there in March...lol
Oh.... and in before the lock....
Lol, I'm glad at least sombody found the humor in that part. (Intirely possable thats actually what set all the guys living in there parents basement off about the pole "porn") unfortunately though, no younger sister, only an older one and not near the quality. Funny you should mention artistic, around our home are at least 3 or for original paintings she's done, Fairies are her specialty (this did create a problem when it came time to kill Fey in EQ) she also outdoor Roller Skates for exercise (and NO neanderthal haters, she doesn't do roller derby either) I'm just kinda worried she's going to bust a hip, damn she's fallen HARD off that pole (it's a sport haters) a few times.
I'm very proud she let's me hang around.
I'd hate to see it locked, ones all the paranoia about the infamous pole porn gets past, I think there's a good concept here for a horizontal progression path.
I've never found the slightest value in /dance emotes. That said, I don't mind at all if they are tossed in for 'flavor' somewhere along the way.
You offered a reasonable idea, a specific animation for Epic Weapons. Not a bad idea, perfectly suitable for discussion. Unfortunately, offering a sexualized example for discussion was not a wise tactic.
Zorkon said:(Intirely possable thats actually what set all the guys living in there parents basement off about the pole "porn")
You may be able to steer the discussion away from that issue and make some headway. But not if you want to broadly insult all those who disagreed with your post due to their perception that the sexual nature of the sample was pertinent to the idea you wished to convey. That perception may have been a mistake, you but certainly gave them reason to MAKE that mistake.
Jothany said:
I've never found the slightest value in /dance emotes. That said, I don't mind at all if they are tossed in for 'flavor' somewhere along the way.
You offered a reasonable idea, a specific animation for Epic Weapons. Not a bad idea, perfectly suitable for discussion. Unfortunately, offering a sexualized example for discussion was not a wise tactic.
Zorkon said:(Intirely possable thats actually what set all the guys living in there parents basement off about the pole "porn")
You may be able to steer the discussion away from that issue and make some headway. But not if you want to broadly insult all those who disagreed with your post due to their perception that the sexual nature of the sample was pertinent to the idea you wished to convey. That perception may have been a mistake, you but certainly gave them reason to MAKE that mistake.
Many do like the /dance emotes, Obviously since most all games have them.. I’m personally indifferent, but my Wife (who will be playing) loves them. You can bet she will have it on a hot key along with /wave (for when we pass somebody on the path) and a few others.
It wasn’t actually the disagreement of my post, it was the failure to get past the "Stripper" Pole and going as far as associating it to "Porn". Regardless, your correct, those comments I made added nothing to the topic, and weren’t any help at all.
To create an out of combat animation that a player who is holding that specific item, can act out is quite a stretch for dev time being spend on such things. But over time and if they happen to have enough time to spend on such things, it could be fun.
But as most here, I'm not thinking in lines of doing a happy dance but rather something more dignified of nature. A looted magicians' staff that glows periodically out of combat, or where the character hovers their hands above a crystal attached to that wand and makes it glow or sorts.
Another example of an epic animation, would be that a warrior or paladin who's looted and equipped an awesome shield would display it out of combat. They might hold it in front of them and bash on the shield or follow the outer lines of the shield, heck they might even shake it a bit in a violent stance emotion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbAjN8w-6mw (watch captain's shield or spear animation on the left at 6 seconds in.)
Any two handed weapon could be held high in the sky, or be held in front of the character horizontally. A character could place the two hander on the ground somewhat abruptly making dust or other (magical?) particles erupt from the groundsurface. Only for a brief moment.
Anything that cuts or slices can be sharpened or showcased by following the sharp lines with the hands of the character that is holding it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9XPELRRXT0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MPktQeQYRo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL6Nfvbhebc
these are very simplified and basic examples, but add some fantasy and magic to it and you can quickly have an "epic" or extraordinaire animation only seen with that epic weapon.
Tomes can be held open by priests and pages or symbols can start to manifest themselves.
All this of course should not be common appearance, this would only occur on rare and epic equipment. Out of combat. The devs could design an option so that players that want to showcase these little animation can do so with the gear that allows those options. Players that don't like those animations can choose not to by going to character settings or ui settings.
Zorkon said:A little funny info I just found.
"Pole" as they are calling it to try to get rid of the stigma, is a recognized Sport and already in negotiations with the International Olympic Committee to bring the Sport to the Olympics.
Yeah, that name will get rid of the stigma hehe. No one is going to see that 'event' and think "stripper". Even someone who's never seen anything like the real thing won't find it the least bit uncomfortable as lithe young women slide up and down with their legs wrapped around a huge glistening pole. No one will smirk or giggle. Why would they. Yeah.
"The Olympic motto is the hendiatris Citius, Altius, Fortius, which is Latin for "faster, higher, stronger". It was proposed by Pierre de Coubertin upon the creation of the International Olympic Committee in 1894"
so, we are going to need to add to that...
Faster, higher, stronger, sexier?
I'm sure that fits right in with modern Olympic ideals and values.
It's both hilarious and a bit sad that some people (especially women) might think this could be legitimised. If real pole-dancing strippers were banned right now and 100 years passed, the "Pole Fitness" event would *still* be a source of ridicule and embarassment given its historic background.
Yeah, the Greeks originally wrestled oiled and naked 1500 years ago. There was almost certainly a sexual titillation to it. Maybe we should just be honest and get back to that if we are going to have 'Pole'? Perhaps we should go for gladitorial death matches too if we want to poke at those base desires and fasciantions.
I'm not a prude and I'm not saying the physical act of clambering up and down a pole can't be strictly atheletic and graceful. I'm saying it will never be able to avoid the comparison to its origins and there is an intrinsic sexual nature that cannot be removed which makes it unsuitable as a 'sport' and as an emote in Pantheon unless we want to court ridicule and endure the fallout needless sexualisation.
Pole dancing in Pantheon? Yeah. That's a hard no from me "dawg".
Good on you that your woman likes pole dancing. Good on you that she likes gaming. None of us really cares. Taking a dig at everyone on these forums "to get yourself a woman like my wife" invalidates whatever little "good" you had left over after using a pole dancer animation as your point.
What I see with your post is, "You need to make this game more like the Korean MMOs where everything is oversexualized because myself and my wife like those sorts of games." Well, there's alot of those sort of games already out, so feel free to play them. That's not what Pantheon is about.
In before the lock that we all know is coming.
Zorkon said:You're close, I aperantly spent too much time on her motivation for showing it to me and not enough on what I was proposing. in my OP I repeatdly said this Gif was too sexualized even for my taste.
"first I totally know about VR and many male players here and their reluctance to accept the subjective "Overly Sexualized" characters and outfits"
"I'm in the middle, there needs to be a compromise."
"Yes Brad's wishes are that his daughter can play (I agree!)"
"think toned down dress"
From my post..
I read all that...and I still get the notion that this was brought up just because your wife wants it. If you really think about it, the strippers of today aren't too far off from wearing what was worn back then to perform dances with a pole, either tight fitting clothing such as Shaolin Monks, or very little clothing at all like with Mallakhamba. My point still stands that it seems you only brought this up because your wife wants it, and for no other real reason.
Even if you were to tone it down or make it 'tame' to some degree, there is still going to be the stigma to "pole=strippers", because that's the most well known sect of pole dancing. The only way that this MAYBE could even be a thing, is if you had it as a Shaolin Monk thing and as an idle animation. Even then, it's still going to be seen as suggestive or insinuating something, you're never going to get away from that in this day and age. As a dance emote, I honestly don't really see dance emotes as useful really. WoW has them, and I maybe tried them out once to see what they looked like, then never did a dance emote again. It's still going to be no for me on this, and it's still going to be seen as something not needed.
So is this an argument for pole dancing animations specifically, more sexualized animations generally, weapon-specific animations, or something else? I think there has been some ambiguity that has led to people arguing for and against different sets of things.
Pole dancing animations specifically (regardless of how intentionally or unintentionally sexualized) seem like a really niche request. I don't think there's nearly enough of a convergence between people looking forward to Pantheon and people interested in the art/sport of pole dancing to warrant even considering this.
If you are arguing for increased sexualization in animations, then I'm sure you're going to garner a large amount of support and opposition.
It seems like many of the arguments have been "pole dancing animations should be included because increased sexualization is fine", but I think it would be more straightforward to discuss the two topics separately.
Ainadak said:So is this an argument for pole dancing animations specifically, more sexualized animations generally, weapon-specific animations, or something else? I think there has been some ambiguity that has led to people arguing for and against different sets of things.
Pole dancing animations specifically (regardless of how intentionally or unintentionally sexualized) seem like a really niche request. I don't think there's nearly enough of a convergence between people looking forward to Pantheon and people interested in the art/sport of pole dancing to warrant even considering this.
If you are arguing for increased sexualization in animations, then I'm sure you're going to garner a large amount of support and opposition.
It seems like many of the arguments have been "pole dancing animations should be included because increased sexualization is fine", but I think it would be more straightforward to discuss the two topics separately.
nah the op just went extreme. he just wants additional animations that can be unlocked in the game lol. everyone just took the example given and blew it up till kingdom come. it's funny as hell XD