Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Perception "dialogue?"

    • 768 posts
    December 14, 2019 10:17 PM PST

    This perception system is a really big design choice for the game and viewing a stream of Pantheon Plus relating to the latest Coh' stream, a community member touched an important remark concerning this design. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH96LYCo6tg ; starting at minute 31. 

    The perception system is, even by the devs, "referred to" as the DM giving you hints and clues about the environment or sorts.

    To me, perception is a personal skill. Receiving hints and perception updates by running into an area and reading such a thing as; "A voice echoes in the distant.", can be experienced differently than the dev's wanted it to. It could give you the sensation that you're actually being led through the world. No matter what you do, it's the game that either presents pings or it doesn't. At first glance this seems pretty obvious, but again, perception to me is a skill purely coming from my OWN character skill. Merely rewriting that example to: "What's that voice in the distance?  or You hear a voice echoeing in the distant."  could already give you more the feeling of this p-ping coming from yourself, from within you...if you see what I mean?

    Now, you could say that every perception ping dialogue could start with; You feel, you hear, you sense,...etc. But I fear that will become old very fast and I might still experience it as I'm just a person who's reading a story told by the invisible man above. It's already a good compromise.

    Perhaps, it should be written even more so that, the player really is convinced it's their own thoughts or skills that allow them to obtain that perception ping. Some games have small portions of that implemented. This together with the graphical appearances, size and position of the dialogue could provide you with a very different experience.

    People that played other games before, might be familiar with the pop up messages that hit the screen when you discover a new area. And that's the game telling you, "hey, you are now in X". Which is similar approach to reading a roadsign as you enter an area. In these scenario's it's clear that the game/world is giving you (and everyone else standing at that spot) information. 

    Perception however, to my understanding, is actually something very personal and would only be providing pings to the character and be perceived as very personal information or personal progress, coming from you, the player/character.

    To recap here, I read the entire perception design as something very personal where I discover the world at my own pace and "read/experience" information (aka perception pings) based and triggered purely from my own skills. A "DM-sensation" for receiving these p-pings, is for me an entirely different game experience. So the Perception-dialogue should be very much focus to being your own personal toughts or findings instead.

    What are you thoughts here?

    Is it a perception ping of your personal character if the dialogue gives you the sensation that a "DM/game" is providing you with the updates. Or is this a case of stumbling over terminology and choice of words?

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 14, 2019 10:17 PM PST
    • 294 posts
    December 15, 2019 9:02 AM PST

    The idea behind the perception system is designed to sort of act like a DM guiding your eyes, ears, feelings, intuitions, etc, toward points of interest that you may/may not want to investigate or explore...

    It is personal in the fact that your skill in perception determines whether or not you receive any said information at all, or perhaps only a portion of said information.

    For writers to individualize the system to specific information differing from that of any other individual would be exhausting and not especially needful. If you and I, as individuals, stood on a precipice overlooking an expanse we would see the same scene, and yet, experience it differently. With the perception system that is still attained. The DM voice, if you will, gives a certain amount of info, but you as the character and player still has to perceive that info in your own individuality and then act on it individually also.

     

    Just my thoughts on the subject. I can't wait to explore it more thoroughly.

    • 2752 posts
    December 15, 2019 1:15 PM PST

    Barin999 said:

    To me, perception is a personal skill. Receiving hints and perception updates by running into an area and reading such a thing as; "A voice echoes in the distant.", can be experienced differently than the dev's wanted it to. It could give you the sensation that you're actually being led through the world. No matter what you do, it's the game that either presents pings or it doesn't. At first glance this seems pretty obvious, but again, perception to me is a skill purely coming from my OWN character skill. Merely rewriting that example to: "What's that voice in the distance?  or You hear a voice echoeing in the distant."  could already give you more the feeling of this p-ping coming from yourself, from within you...if you see what I mean?

    If I remember right this ping was a result of touching the glowing sphere, so it seems right to say "a voice echoes in the distance" for this. Knowing your character just touched a strange orb I think it implies the voice you hear is coming from within the orb, not the environment around you. It lets know know what your character experienced and leaves it up to you the player to do the "what is that voice?" part. In this way it doesn't subvert the players agency over how their character might react or feel about an experience.

     

    Other examples of this kind of language could be "A putrid stench lingers in the tunnel" or "A cold wind blows..."

    Both of these would seem in the same line of thought as "a voice echoes in the distance" and I would say they give off a much better perception/sensory tell as if they are coming from your characters mind than would "You smell a putrid stench lingering in the tunnel" or "You feel a cold wind blowing" because I don't know anyone who thinks "I feel freezing" in their head rather than "It's freezing."

    • 1399 posts
    December 15, 2019 4:03 PM PST

    All OK ideas on how to display it, or how to word it. 

    But I don't get what's so interesting about this "perception system" in the first place. What game hasn't had glowing objects you can click, or places you pass that give you a message if you were the correct level?

    What's the difference to what has always been?

    It's now attached to it own perception level instead of char. level? Ummm not real impressive for as much as there trying to hype it.

    • 291 posts
    December 15, 2019 4:11 PM PST

    Ive never seen a system that evolves with the player like this. Can you give me one example? Maybe you dont understand?... The information and the depth etc get deeper and deeper as you gain insight. Its not perpetually the same message in the same spot. Thats pretty damn cool to me.

    • 1399 posts
    December 15, 2019 7:42 PM PST

    Alyonyah said: Maybe you dont understand?

    Let me cover this first. Entirely possable, in fact I hope that's the problem. It's not from  being new, I've been following the game and watching every stream multiple times for about 2 years..... and I just don't see it.

    Alyonyah said: Ive never seen a system that evolves with the player like this. Can you give me one example?  

    Only every quest giver ever that won't give you the quest before you are level X.  OK so they may not speak to you at all, or they may give the message "don't bother me until you prove yourself" but is it REALLY that revolutionary or "exciting" that there are more 3 or 4 extra "blah blah blah" messages before you get the money shot? Just sounds to me like a lot of fluff, that actually DOES nothing except take a whole lot longer to get to launch. (And I'm patient for launch) but seriously what's the benifit? Risk vs reward over just don't give the quest until the player is of the correct level.

     

    Alyonyah said: The information and the depth etc get deeper and deeper as you gain insight. Its not perpetually the same message in the same spot. Thats pretty damn cool to me. 

    Yea they say that, but what does that mean?

    1) "You smell something"

    2) "You smell something foul"

    3) "You smell something foul to the north"

    4) "You smell something foul to the north and see some rats"

    5) kill 10 rats

    Why not just at level 5 tell the player to kill 10 rats.... all I see is a lot of blah, blah, blah prior to level 5

    I see very little reward for what VR is putting into this... I truly hope I don't understand. That I'm missing something.

     


    This post was edited by Zorkon at December 15, 2019 8:02 PM PST
    • 768 posts
    December 16, 2019 1:13 AM PST

    Klumpedge said:

     

    It is personal in the fact that your skill in perception determines whether or not you receive any said information at all, or perhaps only a portion of said information.

    For writers to individualize the system to specific information differing from that of any other individual would be exhausting and not especially needful.

    I fully agree with you there, the pings wouldn't need to be written for each individual. So everyone with a certain perception skill will receive the same message, for sure.

     

    If you and I, as individuals, stood on a precipice overlooking an expanse we would see the same scene, and yet, experience it differently. With the perception system that is still attained. The DM voice, if you will, gives a certain amount of info, but you as the character and player still has to perceive that info in your own individuality and then act on it individually also.

     

    This bit I find, difficult to interpret. Could you elaborate a bit more on how you and another player/character would experience the same ping differently? Rudimentary, it's still two people reading the same words. I get that emotionally two people might respond differently to the same sentence. But I see that as already one step beyond the initial p-ping message, where it's the mind and body of a person who causes that difference in experience, not the game itself.

     

    • 2756 posts
    December 16, 2019 2:06 AM PST

    Zorkon said:

    Alyonyah said: The information and the depth etc get deeper and deeper as you gain insight. Its not perpetually the same message in the same spot. Thats pretty damn cool to me. 

    Yea they say that, but what does that mean?

    1) "You smell something"

    2) "You smell something foul"

    3) "You smell something foul to the north"

    4) "You smell something foul to the north and see some rats"

    5) kill 10 rats

    Why not just at level 5 tell the player to kill 10 rats.... all I see is a lot of blah, blah, blah prior to level 5

    I see very little reward for what VR is putting into this... I truly hope I don't understand. That I'm missing something.

    You just perhaps aren't appreciating the potential or enjoying the difference.

    1) You are encouraged to explore. You don't just look for exclamation marks and click there to get information, you explore a zone and get cryptic clues from your feelings and senses.

    2) You are encouraged to explore more. Clues might build and combine over several perception points.

    3) The exploration feels organic. You are searching out clues like an archaeoligist rather than picking up information in a tourist office.

    4) It rewards those interested in lore. Because it's a skill you choose to pursue and spend time doing, it's more than just knowledge you are given. It also makes the Keeper valuable to a party of adventurers, it has been hinted, that a Keeper can give access to storylines that might otherwise be missed.

    5) It gives meaning and depth to content. Because it happens out in the world rather than being researched in a library, it may well get people interested in the lore and storylines that would otherwise just be out there killing stuff and getting XP. SOme will stumble over the same content. Others will enjoy it all the more because they searched it out and understand the whys and the wherefores of the content.

    You say "Why not just at level 5 tell the player to kill 10 rats.... all I see is a lot of blah, blah, blah", but isn't that the point? If you want to be lead by the nose and skip the lore, there are lots of modern MMORPGs with quest hubs full of clicky exclamation marks with skippable quest text and summary journals to remind you should you even forget the "kill 10 rats" instruction.

    For people who want to be explorers and are interested in knowing the world around them, the perception system is a subtle but meaningful way of doing that.

    It's the difference between doing a scavenger hunt and just being handed a present to rip open. Sure, some people just want the present. Others find the hunt as much fun, or more fun, than the prize.

    • 2756 posts
    December 16, 2019 2:17 AM PST

    Barin999 said:

    Klumpedge said:

    It is personal in the fact that your skill in perception determines whether or not you receive any said information at all, or perhaps only a portion of said information.

    For writers to individualize the system to specific information differing from that of any other individual would be exhausting and not especially needful.

    I fully agree with you there, the pings wouldn't need to be written for each individual. So everyone with a certain perception skill will receive the same message, for sure.

    Klumpedge said:

    If you and I, as individuals, stood on a precipice overlooking an expanse we would see the same scene, and yet, experience it differently. With the perception system that is still attained. The DM voice, if you will, gives a certain amount of info, but you as the character and player still has to perceive that info in your own individuality and then act on it individually also.

    This bit I find, difficult to interpret. Could you elaborate a bit more on how you and another player/character would experience the same ping differently? Rudimentary, it's still two people reading the same words. I get that emotionally two people might respond differently to the same sentence. But I see that as already one step beyond the initial p-ping message, where it's the mind and body of a person who causes that difference in experience, not the game itself.

    I'm sure Klumpedge can answer, but I think I understand. The way it might work is two people looking at the same view one gets the message: -

    "You get an eerie sensation from the east"

    The other - with higher perception - might get: -

    "You get an eerie sensation of longing from the cold, dark clouds to the far east"

    More information, just as cryptic, perhaps, but it may mean more to the Keeper who has had other perception pings in the region about a tragic ghost story and a haunted castle in the mountains as high as the clouds to the east.

    The first player might be intrigued and go east anyway. They will get to enjoy the castle content, but the Keeper will enjoy it from a lore/exploration aspect as well, because they have more understanding of the situation.

    I see the perception system as providing cryptic clues, like a scavenger hunt. Some people find their experience of the same area greatly enhanced by knowing all about the history and background. Others just want to dive in and enjoy what is there in its own right.

    People won't have to be a Keeper to enjoy Pantheon, of course, but I think it will add a layer that enhances it greatly.


    This post was edited by disposalist at December 16, 2019 2:18 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    December 16, 2019 2:23 AM PST

    I'm hoping being a Keeper is like being an Archaeologist, but I'm thinking Indiana Jones rather than those spending months in a muddy pit.

    Others will still break into pyramids and fight mummies for their treasure, but Indy is doing that *and* enjoying it on an academic research level.

    It's like tying a love of the game lore in with the adventure.

    I usually enjoy the lore, but skip a lot of it because I'm keen to 'adventure'. I'm hoping the perception/Keeper system ties it together nicely so I can enjoy the lore more (without working too hard hehe).

    I'm also hoping it rewards the lore-focused folks more than they might ordinarily be, as they become the valued archaeologist guides to their groups and maybe even get hints at wonderful treasures that others might miss...

    • 1992 posts
    December 16, 2019 2:48 AM PST

    disposalist said: and maybe even get hints at wonderful treasures that others might miss...

    SHHHH!!

    (We agreed to not talk about that part!)

    • 2756 posts
    December 16, 2019 4:30 AM PST

    Jothany said:

    disposalist said: and maybe even get hints at wonderful treasures that others might miss...

    SHHHH!!

    (We agreed to not talk about that part!)

    Doh! I got all excited and blurted it out!

    • 228 posts
    December 16, 2019 5:42 AM PST

    I'm more worried that Perception appears to be an individual endeavor which may not fit well with group objectives.

    Here's an example of what I mean: I'm in a group traveling at full speed to a dungeon that we all want to clean out. Suddenly, I get an interesting ding that I want to follow up on; maybe one or two other group members get it too, but the rest couldn't care less. Now the group's agreed-upon objective is questioned, and no matter what we decide, the unity of the group may have been weakened.


    This post was edited by Jabir at December 16, 2019 5:43 AM PST
    • 1019 posts
    December 16, 2019 5:58 AM PST

    So much time and effort going into something that will be ignored by 80% of the playing population.

    • 159 posts
    December 16, 2019 6:03 AM PST

    Barin999 said:

    To recap here, I read the entire perception design as something very personal where I discover the world at my own pace and "read/experience" information (aka perception pings) based and triggered purely from my own skills. A "DM-sensation" for receiving these p-pings, is for me an entirely different game experience. So the Perception-dialogue should be very much focus to being your own personal toughts or findings instead.

    What are you thoughts here?

    Is it a perception ping of your personal character if the dialogue gives you the sensation that a "DM/game" is providing you with the updates. Or is this a case of stumbling over terminology and choice of words?

     

    This is actually a point I brought up on Minus's show last Thursday among many other things.

    I think (I'll have to go rewatch to be sure) there was a part of the stream near the end (in the Dwarf halls) where Cohh's character 'perceived' something along the lines of "These dwarves have lived here for almost 1,000 years" ... and I was like, wait what, how the heck can that just be 'perceived'. There was no context. It was just a random "fact" that his character inherently just knew through the perception system. Point being, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way and disconnect me from the character a bit.

    Either way. Small potatoes. As you said, this is really just a fancier version of any other game telling us what is going on. The added benefit - it being a skill - allows them to use it as a gate of sorts for specific content. But I would guess most of the time regardless of skill, it will just be generic information that everyone can see. Time will tell.

     

    As far as a solution to that 'disconnect', I would have prefered to see something along the lines of:

    "The portrait on the wall seems to date the Dwarves ancestry back almost 1000 years"


    This post was edited by Kass at December 16, 2019 6:06 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    December 16, 2019 6:36 AM PST

    Kittik said:

    So much time and effort going into something that will be ignored by 80% of the playing population.

    You could say the same about crafting also. I would say in most games a relatively small proportion do that.  I sometimes don't bother with crafting depending on the game. I wouldn't say it was a waste of effort though.

    The way I understand it, most everyone will get the basic perception pings, just not the more interesting, advanced, lore-related info and possibly they can't pursue the related storylines.

    I think the perception/keeper thing is more likely to intrigue people and get them interested in exploration and lore than more traditional approaches.

    Sure, some people will ignore it, just like some people never read quest text and a lot of people are largely uninterested in the lore of a game.  Does that mean good quests and lore are a waste of effort?

    Also, even the 80% not bothering to be Keepers can benefit if they have a Keeper in their party guiding them...

    • 2756 posts
    December 16, 2019 6:40 AM PST

    Kass said:

    Barin999 said:

    To recap here, I read the entire perception design as something very personal where I discover the world at my own pace and "read/experience" information (aka perception pings) based and triggered purely from my own skills. A "DM-sensation" for receiving these p-pings, is for me an entirely different game experience. So the Perception-dialogue should be very much focus to being your own personal toughts or findings instead.

    What are you thoughts here?

    Is it a perception ping of your personal character if the dialogue gives you the sensation that a "DM/game" is providing you with the updates. Or is this a case of stumbling over terminology and choice of words?

     

    This is actually a point I brought up on Minus's show last Thursday among many other things.

    I think (I'll have to go rewatch to be sure) there was a part of the stream near the end (in the Dwarf halls) where Cohh's character 'perceived' something along the lines of "These dwarves have lived here for almost 1,000 years" ... and I was like, wait what, how the heck can that just be 'perceived'. There was no context. It was just a random "fact" that his character inherently just knew through the perception system. Point being, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way and disconnect me from the character a bit.

    Either way. Small potatoes. As you said, this is really just a fancier version of any other game telling us what is going on. The added benefit - it being a skill - allows them to use it as a gate of sorts for specific content. But I would guess most of the time regardless of skill, it will just be generic information that everyone can see. Time will tell.

    As far as a solution to that 'disconnect', I would have prefered to see something along the lines of:

    "The portrait on the wall seems to date the Dwarves ancestry back almost 1000 years"

    I agree they need to be careful to not break immersion. Though it's pre-alpha and maybe we are seeing stuff that would be 'normal' to a Keeper that has trained for a long time and those kind of supernatural intuitions are what is entirely possible for a Sage (or whatever) level Keeper.

    • 1399 posts
    December 16, 2019 8:12 AM PST

    Zorkon said:

    1) "You smell something"

    2) "You smell something foul"

    3) "You smell something foul to the north"

    4) "You smell something foul to the north and see some rats"

    5) kill 10 rats

    OK I understand the people saying this will help tell the story.... got it. But the messages are still level based as per the players perception level. Using my over simplified example I quoted, if the player comes by for the first time and he already has perception level 5 

    Does he just get "kill 10 rats"

    OR does he need to trigger all 5 messages by making 5 passes past the place (or touching the orb as the case may be) 

    OR something else?

    Either way on both the above options immersion broken, story lost, VR setting all these values for perception pings is a wasted effort.

    • 2138 posts
    December 16, 2019 8:50 AM PST

    My understanding of perception is the same as the OP if I understand correctly.

    And yes, as commented it will probably be overlooked by 80pct of the players but...

    How I see it, is like: not merely the addition of descriptive language but entirely different yet related perceptions(clues?hints?)

    Key elements, like finding a key- lol- will be seen by all,  But a group entering a room: one will get a hint of it being an old tomb with restless spirits, another will get a hint of a crack in the far wall, but no info about a tomb or spirits except for how it looks. Yet another may get a hint on the arcane nature of the writing around the base of the walls or edges of the encasements(notice not called tombs), and another will get a hint and be able to read the name above the linitel and associate it with the town or village just passed or that they personally have passed. The last would get a hint that the stone, dust and cobwebs night be useable in crafting.

    So, all would have gotten the perception hint for the key to open the door, but once inside- based on their class, race, specialication or what previous perception hints they bothered to acknowledge each would get a different message- unbeknownst to the others. Suddenly the group is talking to each other.

    -there's a crack in the wall over there i'm gonna check it out....

    -watch it! there might be ghosts!

    -this belongs to the Nelsons, they're a poor family in the next town over, this place is huge! how could they have afforded this place? looks old.

    -there is a ward or something on this place we should be careful.

    - hey, i'm gonna crack off a block of this this stone cap and grind it up, I think I can use it for someth-

    -nonononono!

     

     

    • 1992 posts
    December 16, 2019 11:49 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    The way I understand it, most everyone will get the basic perception pings, just not the more interesting, advanced, lore-related info and possibly they can't pursue the related storylines.

    I can't remember where I got it, but I believe we were told that every char has the choice early on to choose to be a Keeper and if they don't then they will not see ANY perception pings. I could be assuming though, it would be good to check that.

    • 752 posts
    December 16, 2019 12:52 PM PST

    I know some people would rather not get the pings and they will turn those off. Totally their game to play. And i agree that random historical facts shouldnt just be laid plain without context. Definitely need some lore about just what keepers are able to discern and how they would know that? Or reword some of the pings to suggest instead of tell?

    • 294 posts
    December 17, 2019 5:53 PM PST

    Disposalist answered your question quite well Barin999.

    Two people standing side by side may gain more or less from the experience because of their individual perception skill. 

    I'm sure one might share their insight with another, especially within a group of friends, or guild of comrades.

    • 520 posts
    December 17, 2019 11:58 PM PST

    It certainly would be better if the messages displayed were implied to be purely based on our senses and knowledge and be a representation of characters inner thoughts so:

    - "I smell something foul" or " Something smells foul in here" rather than "You smell something foul"

    - "This huge stone head must be ... that I've read/heard about" rather than "You stay before huge head which is a remnant of ..."

    • 1714 posts
    December 18, 2019 12:22 AM PST

    Perception is yet another try hard reinventing the wheel waste of time by VR. 

    • 752 posts
    December 18, 2019 8:24 AM PST

    While i do agree with you Keno Monster.... without a tryhard are we any better than old DnD? What we need is a comprehensive DM that understands the minute details of introverted storytelling. If the ping is to be an internal message it should act as such. A DM would be an external message so it would be worded as above. Having learned another language it is often important to specify which personal pronoun to use in a given situation....

     

    Edit: All that needs to be asked is "What is the source of the information? Internal or External?" And adjust the pings as such. They can easily add in NPC's to cover any gaps in storytelling.


    This post was edited by kreed99 at December 18, 2019 8:27 AM PST