Just wanted to say i saw some items that were NO DROP, and all i have to say is I'm actually quite happy to see some of those items exsist in the World of Terminus, what are your thoughts of such a thing?
I thought they will have "normal" blue servers with mostly no drop and "role" servers with I assume different drop mechanics. Theres certainly pros and cons to both systems but over all I tend to agree with you Celandor.
Raidil said: Unless it is a super power soul bound in lore I don't like no drop it don't make sence in most cases of DND and RPGs and I hope all no drop can be but in the scraper to make other items from so there not useless. And really what's the point of no drop if it take days to quest thin why should you time to be worth selling said item if u like.and if I remember they said that there will be very little no drop only epics and items made custom for your player (toon)
Becuase it requires you to go out int the world in which it comes from and farm it yourself?
I will agree it shouldn't appear as a common thing to see, but having it there also can make certain items harder to get, especially if the particular mob is hard to get to or kill, and if yourself, or group isn't organized to get it than you will have to become better player or you'll have to find a better group, and most likely both.
Celandor said:I always liked the no-drop mechanic if it was used sparingly, especially for items that had heavy quest chains to obtain.
Whats to like about it? Seriously, this was the worst mechanic ever created, I understand why they created it but there are different options they could have used. One such option is to make the gear level appropriate, if you are not at the level required you can't use it. I should be allowed to Twink my alts with gear I aquired or purchased and not be stuck with it because the gear is no longer useful to my main, and if they fear people farming the gear just make the items lore (so you can only have one per character).
I always hated being stuck with nice gear that was no-drop but I out-leveled it and didn't need it, and I couldn't sell it to a vendor or give it to one of my alts or friends... uuuggghhh.... Do away with this mechanic for everything other than perhaps Epic items or Quest rewarded items....?!?!?
Rint said:Celandor said:I always liked the no-drop mechanic if it was used sparingly, especially for items that had heavy quest chains to obtain.
Whats to like about it? Seriously, this was the worst mechanic ever created, I understand why they created it but there are different options they could have used. One such option is to make the gear level appropriate, if you are not at the level required you can't use it. I should be allowed to Twink my alts with gear I aquired or purchased and not be stuck with it because the gear is no longer useful to my main, and if they fear people farming the gear just make the items lore (so you can only have one per character).
I always hated being stuck with nice gear that was no-drop but I out-leveled it and didn't need it, and I couldn't sell it to a vendor or give it to one of my alts or friends... uuuggghhh.... Do away with this mechanic for everything other than perhaps Epic items or Quest rewarded items....?!?!?
Just becuase you don't like something doesn't make it a bad feature, as i can say having everything simply able to be bought and requires no effort other than finding a nice spot of killing mobs to gain money to gain all the gear you'll ever need to advance your character sounds terrible to me, which is exactly what would happen without no drop items, with certain individuals. So again just becuase you don't like it, but it requires you to explore or farm certain content til you get the desired item is actually a good thing even though you obviously don't like it.
Question: Whats to like about it?
Answer: Stops people from handing out epics, etc.
I agree with both sides, but I also disagree with both sides. I was on a no drop blue server and eventually transfered to a blue RP all drop server. In both cases I wished to be on the other server, and Im sure the same would still be true today. Seems to have a grass is greener effect no matter what side Im on. When I was on the no drop server everyone around me had earned their places, and everything was hard fought, but the battle of attrition was a difficult uphill climb as well. It would have been SO much easier to pool gear and equip recruits. Adversely when I was on the all drop server I had no issue gearing recruits up but they flowed in and out like an unappreciated welfare line, and who had earned their place required a long trial period to prove out. In both cases time is not optimally spent. I dont believe theres a clear solution.
The title of this thread had me totally baffled for a while. By "no drop" I assume the meaning is "no trade" or "bind on acquire" or the like = the terms commonly used both in the industry and in prior discussions in these forums. Correct me if I am wrong. No need to tell me where "no drop" comes from I am well aware of the history - it is just a phrase I am highly unused to seeing. In some MMO discussions "no drop" is synonymous with "cannot be destroyed" - a rare item that the player isn't allowed to drop where the game mechanic has a dropped item go bye-bye. And there have been debates over whether this restriction on player control of inventory is good or bad.
That some items should be no drop seems obvious to me. Items of exceptional power that. if sold or given to lower level characters, would unduly unbalance the game and make leveling-up too easy. If one wants to permit second or third or 10th characters to level faster take the EQ2 approach and give xp bonuses to alts after the first time a character reaches maximum level. Do not give them super-powered items that will make progress too easy not just for them but for their groups. Alternatively make these items tradable to only characters at level-cap but this approach assumes no future increases in level-cap.
That routine dropped items should be sellable also seems obvious to me and few indeed will argue to the contrary.
The difficult decision. as usual, lies with the details. Where does one draw the line? Make epic quest rewards no drop? Make all quest rewards no drop (common in MMOs to make quest rewards purely personal). Make raid boss loot no drop? Make any dungeon boss drop no loot? When we reach alpha I will worry about such details.
I never understood why people love some of these completely immersion-breaking features like "no-drop" and not being able to cast high-level spells on low-level characters. I fully understand that some people hate twinking or powerleveling while others love them. I'm pretty neutral either way. I just hate that if I do the work to get something I can't do what I want with it. If I have gear then I should be able to sell it, destroy it, break it down into its parts for crafting mats, or hand it to a random newbie to make their day. The same with spells. For me, the more arbitrary and unrealistic limits placed on me, the less I feel part of the world.
I'm also a little worried because I'm pretty sure I heard Brad say over and over that "no-drop" wasn't going to be a thing for all but the most powerful and epic items. Does that mean that VR has done a 180 on this already? I'm hoping that they're going to stick to the tenants Brad laid out as close as they can (unless something is shown to be game-breaking at some point during testing) and not start flip-flopping already just a few weeks after his death.
I'm kind of assuming that the no-drop tag during the Cohh stream is just due to it being pre-alpha, in a newly refreshed zone that's probably far from being well itemized. Especially since everything that dropped was just random trash from mostly trash mobs.
If items that routinely drop off trash mobs are no-drop then I'm going to be very unhappy. If slightly better items from named mobs that spawn pretty regularly are no-drop I'm still going to be kind of sad...
I'm still chalking it up to pre-alpha and itemization that hasn't really been looked at.
philo said: I'm surprised by this thread. No drop items shouldn't be a surprise. This isn't the first time we have seen them. We have even seen no rent items and they will be more rare than no drop. It seems like people are taking discussions about tradable items and extrapolating that all items will be that way which has never been the case. It seems like a non-discussion. There are many new people in the last couple years that are not up to date on past info. This is just another example. While many items will be tradable, there will be no drop items and this has always been part of the discussion.
Based on this developers statements https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4508/role-playing-server-will-there-be-one my initial statements still stand. Guess its still a discussion for "some" people. Damn newbs.
((We have even seen no rent items and they will be more rare than no drop.))
Is this a reaction to zassik discussing the game's tenants? Clever.
(( Guess its still a discussion for "some" people. Damn newbs.))
What the developers intend has changed before and will change again. As Brad said fairly recently - that is one of the *reasons* to do testing and get feedback from players. I see no reason to treat a possibility as off-the-table and a waste of time to discuss just because the developers currently intend a different approach. Thus - suppose that the developers said definitively that they did not intend to have any no drop items. And suppose 99% of the comments were highly negative. Surely they would at least think about *why* the reaction was so negative and reconsider. Though, of course, after reconsidering they might keep the same result for reasons that seemed good to them.
dorotea said:((We have even seen no rent items and they will be more rare than no drop.))
Is this a reaction to zassik discussing the game's tenants? Clever.
(( Guess its still a discussion for "some" people. Damn newbs.))
What the developers intend has changed before and will change again. As Brad said fairly recently - that is one of the *reasons* to do testing and get feedback from players. I see no reason to treat a possibility as off-the-table and a waste of time to discuss just because the developers currently intend a different approach. Thus - suppose that the developers said definitively that they did not intend to have any no drop items. And suppose 99% of the comments were highly negative. Surely they would at least think about *why* the reaction was so negative and reconsider. Though, of course, after reconsidering they might keep the same result for reasons that seemed good to them.
I was basically being sarcastic and saying what philo only implies. Of course Im a part of the conversation as you can see. In other words...... I completely agree with what you outlined.
Riahuf22 said:Just becuase you don't like something doesn't make it a bad feature, as i can say having everything simply able to be bought and requires no effort other than finding a nice spot of killing mobs to gain money to gain all the gear you'll ever need to advance your character sounds terrible to me, which is exactly what would happen without no drop items, with certain individuals. So again just becuase you don't like it, but it requires you to explore or farm certain content til you get the desired item is actually a good thing even though you obviously don't like it.
Its a bad feature anyway you slice it, there are many other mechanics (as I pointed out) that can address "Your Concerns", and as the developers have been touted for years (Yes, I've been here since the Kickstarter Days) there will be limted "No Drop" I'm agreeable to certain Items being designed that way (Again, as I posted orginally) such as Epics, Certain Quest Items...etc.... Where I draw the line is on everyday trash gear, as the stream with Cohh on the 12th illustrated he looted a mob that had really bad Dagger (https://youtu.be/Vxwfue78XLY?t=2631) that was No Drop?!?!? Help me understand why that item was no-drop but the bag of goodies that Joppa gave to him didn't have one no-drop (rhetorical question)...?!?!?
Not everyone is going to agree, but my opinion is that if I'm putting in the time in this game I should be able to do what ever I want with the items I obtain (again within certain limits), a cheap mechanic like No-Drop is just that "Cheap and Lazy"....
/shrug...
Rint said:Riahuf22 said:Just becuase you don't like something doesn't make it a bad feature, as i can say having everything simply able to be bought and requires no effort other than finding a nice spot of killing mobs to gain money to gain all the gear you'll ever need to advance your character sounds terrible to me, which is exactly what would happen without no drop items, with certain individuals. So again just becuase you don't like it, but it requires you to explore or farm certain content til you get the desired item is actually a good thing even though you obviously don't like it.
Its a bad feature anyway you slice it, there are many other mechanics (as I pointed out) that can address "Your Concerns", and as the developers have been touted for years (Yes, I've been here since the Kickstarter Days) there will be limted "No Drop" I'm agreeable to certain Items being designed that way (Again, as I posted orginally) such as Epics, Certain Quest Items...etc.... Where I draw the line is on everyday trash gear, as the stream with Cohh on the 12th illustrated he looted a mob that had really bad Dagger (https://youtu.be/Vxwfue78XLY?t=2631) that was No Drop?!?!? Help me understand why that item was no-drop but the bag of goodies that Joppa gave to him didn't have one no-drop (rhetorical question)...?!?!?
Not everyone is going to agree, but my opinion is that if I'm putting in the time in this game I should be able to do what ever I want with the items I obtain (again within certain limits), a cheap mechanic like No-Drop is just that "Cheap and Lazy"....
/shrug...
The vast majority of items should not be no drop. I'm fine with extremely rare items from raids being no drop but anything outside of that should be tradable imo.
Just farming gold off some low level mobs for trash isn't a very good way to make money in any MMO. The only way it's effective is by using bots. You can't just post up and some camp and kill boars for a couple days and afford to go out and buy items off other players. If gold is that easy to acquire then the rare items that are hard to acquire will go up in price. The market will dictate its value.
There may be some over-reacting here. Bear in mind that we are in pre-alpha testing and it's seriously doubtful that itemisation is anywhere near done. The emphasis is on 'testing' - perhaps there is more to test with NO DROP functionality so there are quite a few randomly specified as NO DROP for testing purposes?
Having said that, there's a discussion to be had about what we would *like* in Pantheon, though as people have pointed out, devs have previously stated that there won't be much NO DROP and most will be tradable.
Personally, I hope there is a variety. There are good cases for NO DROP, NO TRADE, NO RENT, Soul binding, etc. Why not use them all as appropriate when necessary?
EppE said:Just farming gold off some low level mobs for trash isn't a very good way to make money in any MMO. The only way it's effective is by using bots. You can't just post up and some camp and kill boars for a couple days and afford to go out and buy items off other players. If gold is that easy to acquire then the rare items that are hard to acquire will go up in price. The market will dictate its value.
Maybe, but the market reasoning is also valid the other way around. If anything can be traded, everybody will do so with the items they have outgrown, eventually flooding the market with powerful low- and mid-level items that were meant to be hard to come by. Later generations will then face the choice between spending a few coins to get fully geared up or fighting their way to a number of deep dungeons and feel somewhat silly for doing that. That is of course assuming that no other item sinks are in place.
What may seem natural and fair from an individual point-of-view is sometimes harmful to the game world as a whole. If Pantheon is to survive for more than a couple of years it's imperative that it continue to be interesting to play with new characters.
Honestly I'd rather have items that would otherwise be No-drop to be No-loot. What I mean is each character should be able to loot certain legendary/epic item from the boss only once - later on even if boss drops it it won't be displayed to the person who already looted it before - they could however give this item to an alt or sell it if they'd choose to do so.
I've never cared for no drop gear. If you want to make it so the best stuff cant be sold to anyone willy-nilly just make it only able to be wielded/equipped by that character. Even this should be done sparringly though.
As others have said if it is the reward for a long quest chain then sure, thats a more reasonable candidate to lock in this way. If its anything I'm just getting as random or regular loot drop (love me some randomly generated loot) then I'd much prefer to see it never locked.
Having a real and viable market for second hand gear that people out level/out grow was always one of the best parts of many early MMOs. It was equally as nice for outfitting alts as it was for helping out new guild-mates or friends jumping into the game. Worst case scenario is place limiters on when the gear can be used (most games used level restrict, or some used skill-level checks which I am much more of a fan of)
