stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:This litterally made no sense to me, nor should high level players get punished for being high level, and debuffing a player for walking into a low level zone is honestly pretty dumb too, in my opinion anyway.
"Hey you were level 50 but since you zoned into this zone you instantly nerfed yourself to lvl 15 have a nice day but don't forget if you zone back over you'll be 50 again so have a nice day."
Oh and since all Ciities are essentially "safe areas" everyone is lvl 1."
hm.. say for example you want to farm sulfiric gloom herbs in a toxic zone that is level 30. as a level 50 i can still go into the zone, but i would need toxic accclimation gear to really get to where i want to go to farm them. if my acclimation isn't high enough, i'd die from poisoning. so there's a soft requirement of having gear. they can also scale down to level 40 so the mobs still easy but not trivial.
it's a way to prevent higher level players from monopolizing zones with high demand stuff. well i don't really care it's gonna be more of an issue for pve players lol.
Well I don't actually see why a lvl 50 player would need more acclimation than a lvl 30 to explore the same areas, that to me actually sounds backwards, I see what you are trying to accompolish, but it simply just doesn't make any sense why that would be a thing, if you really wanted that particular herb to be the important and such you should just make that herb be a high level nerb to begin with. and regardless of that, even if you would implement it, it would only slow it down and not actually prevent anything, and at the end would stop nothing, cept from the newer players that got into the game. Much like the Idea Trasak brought up, i like it but it doesn't actually stop gold farming, only slows it down, and depending how it was implemented it also be takin advantage of as well.
@stellarmind
The possible time delay to become acclimated to an area could certainly slow down a farmers ability to move from one area to the next once it has been cleared out. We don't know enough yet to know how long it takes to go from neutral, to cold acclimated, to cold and toxic acclimated then flipped to fire and high gravity acclimated. Many farmer characters are intended to require as little investment as possible in order to get functioning and the acclimation system will require a much higher time investment to get up and running meaning that most likely only real players will be farming in them en mass.
Level suppression environments is a neat idea though. There have been a few Magic the Gathering cards that limited the power and toughness of creatures that could attack. They tended to really change up the flow of the game. Adding effectively that mechanic to specific zones could really keep things challenging and in turn allow for higher rewards due the decreased rate at which the reward is given out. Not all areas should be like that but a few of the highest rewarding areas could be something similar.
Riahuf22 said:
Really? in WoW you have gatherers, which only go around and gather things and sell it in AH's, than you have your Old Raid Farmers that wipe Old raids at a very fast rate and collect everything and sell whats sellable. it all comes down to simply doing the same thing over and over agina and reaping the rewards for your efforts. And it basically goes back to what i said, granted the gathering didn't require killing mobs, but it still requires preforming the same actions and eventually "routes" they will run to collect the most efficent materials they are looking for and than selling them to the highest bidder or AH. It's all the same and you can't really escape it unless you get rid of nodes/mobs, or set in some artifical barrier of high levels in skill or level to prevent farming low end materials/mobs which shouldn't be a thing.
And i see you keep saying they have found ways to prevent such things from happening but actually havent said any of them.
So, you seem to have a misconception about where money in an MMORPG comes from.
If you sell something to another player - that's not generating new money. That's money that came from somewhere else in the game, that's just being transferred between players. Sure, you can play a market to raise impressive quantities of cash. But that's a completely separate discussion from what this thread is about.
Thus, I'm struggling to understand what you're really arguing for or against here. Again, you seem to have a very limited viewpoint. Here are some examples that may help you out though.
In Earth and Beyond, selling loot to NPC vendors was generally not a very good source of cash. The most efficient and reliable source of cash was to do trade routes between stations, and the game literally had a progression built entirely around that. If you weren't inclined to spend time running crates of goods back and forth, you could also do combat or exploration missions for cash. At endgame, you could sell certain loot to other players for very lucrative amounts, but they probably got that money in the first place through one of the other methods I named.
In EVE Online, the most efficient way to earn money from the game itself is by running missions. While some loot can be sold to NPCs it generally doesn't net much, as almost everything is intended to be reused by players in some way. Later on, because of the size of EVE's economy, the fastest way to earn money from other players is generally mining resources, although you can keep doing missions all the way up to high end content.
In EQ2, the most efficient way to earn money from the game was from questing - and the game had so many quests that it was hard to run out of them. Sure, you could vendor your loot as well, but in terms of the time investment it was always better to go do more quests than it was to spend time farming for drops. For earning money from other players, typically gathering resources was the way to go, rather than crafting or trying to sell looted items (most of which weren't tradable anyway).
In WoW, at least as much as I've paid attention to it, the best way to earn money from the game over the past few years has been daily/weekly quests. I've known many WoW players who logged in every day to do those specifically to raise cash. Since I don't play WoW, I don't pretend to know everything about it, but I honestly haven't had a WoW player talk to me about how they were farming mob drops for cash in years, so I don't think it's a thing there.
In FFXIV, the most efficient way to earn money from the game is quests, daily dungeon and raid roulettes, and daily challenges. Vendoring drops is almost a complete waste of time.
In LOTRO, at least for the first few years while I was playing it, the most efficient way to earn money from the game was generally doing quests. At higher levels, you would farm for legendary item drops and then try to sell those to other players if you really needed the cash - usually you didn't though unless you were trying to buy legendary item drops yourself.
I don't think I really need to continue. Do I?
Look, the thing you should be taking away here is this. The developers have complete control over when and how money is generated within the game. If they want to make drops worth a lot, they can do that. If they want to make drops worth almost nothing, they can do that too. There is no rule carved in a stone tablet anywhere that says which way they have to go. If they wanted to, they could make it so that all gold in the world is found in randomly spawning treasure chests in dungeons, or from doing small, dynamically generated quests in major cities.
The most likely scenario for Pantheon is that we get a mix of activities that all have different yields for the time and risk. And as long as the developers tune that correctly, they can encourage players to play the game in a way that's fun and interesting, rather than tedious and boring.
its the environment in pve. no matter how strong one is, the environment can't be overcome with raw levels alone. immersion levels out the roof.
i imagine tony stark, no matter how many levels he gains, the environment can't be overcome with that just alone. he needs specialized suits. even though iron is a low level metal, he still needs to farm it because it's in high demand. how often does tony stark deal with super hot tempatures? that's why he rarely farms high level tungsten. can't make money if people aren't applying it.
well w.e. if it was me, i'd just kill the gold farmers. they taste so good.
Nephele said:Riahuf22 said:
Really? in WoW you have gatherers, which only go around and gather things and sell it in AH's, than you have your Old Raid Farmers that wipe Old raids at a very fast rate and collect everything and sell whats sellable. it all comes down to simply doing the same thing over and over agina and reaping the rewards for your efforts. And it basically goes back to what i said, granted the gathering didn't require killing mobs, but it still requires preforming the same actions and eventually "routes" they will run to collect the most efficent materials they are looking for and than selling them to the highest bidder or AH. It's all the same and you can't really escape it unless you get rid of nodes/mobs, or set in some artifical barrier of high levels in skill or level to prevent farming low end materials/mobs which shouldn't be a thing.
And i see you keep saying they have found ways to prevent such things from happening but actually havent said any of them.
So, you seem to have a misconception about where money in an MMORPG comes from.
If you sell something to another player - that's not generating new money. That's money that came from somewhere else in the game, that's just being transferred between players. Sure, you can play a market to raise impressive quantities of cash. But that's a completely separate discussion from what this thread is about.
Thus, I'm struggling to understand what you're really arguing for or against here. Again, you seem to have a very limited viewpoint. Here are some examples that may help you out though.
In Earth and Beyond, selling loot to NPC vendors was generally not a very good source of cash. The most efficient and reliable source of cash was to do trade routes between stations, and the game literally had a progression built entirely around that. If you weren't inclined to spend time running crates of goods back and forth, you could also do combat or exploration missions for cash. At endgame, you could sell certain loot to other players for very lucrative amounts, but they probably got that money in the first place through one of the other methods I named.
In EVE Online, the most efficient way to earn money from the game itself is by running missions. While some loot can be sold to NPCs it generally doesn't net much, as almost everything is intended to be reused by players in some way. Later on, because of the size of EVE's economy, the fastest way to earn money from other players is generally mining resources, although you can keep doing missions all the way up to high end content.
In EQ2, the most efficient way to earn money from the game was from questing - and the game had so many quests that it was hard to run out of them. Sure, you could vendor your loot as well, but in terms of the time investment it was always better to go do more quests than it was to spend time farming for drops. For earning money from other players, typically gathering resources was the way to go, rather than crafting or trying to sell looted items (most of which weren't tradable anyway).
In WoW, at least as much as I've paid attention to it, the best way to earn money from the game over the past few years has been daily/weekly quests. I've known many WoW players who logged in every day to do those specifically to raise cash. Since I don't play WoW, I don't pretend to know everything about it, but I honestly haven't had a WoW player talk to me about how they were farming mob drops for cash in years, so I don't think it's a thing there.
In FFXIV, the most efficient way to earn money from the game is quests, daily dungeon and raid roulettes, and daily challenges. Vendoring drops is almost a complete waste of time.
In LOTRO, at least for the first few years while I was playing it, the most efficient way to earn money from the game was generally doing quests. At higher levels, you would farm for legendary item drops and then try to sell those to other players if you really needed the cash - usually you didn't though unless you were trying to buy legendary item drops yourself.
I don't think I really need to continue. Do I?
Look, the thing you should be taking away here is this. The developers have complete control over when and how money is generated within the game. If they want to make drops worth a lot, they can do that. If they want to make drops worth almost nothing, they can do that too. There is no rule carved in a stone tablet anywhere that says which way they have to go. If they wanted to, they could make it so that all gold in the world is found in randomly spawning treasure chests in dungeons, or from doing small, dynamically generated quests in major cities.
The most likely scenario for Pantheon is that we get a mix of activities that all have different yields for the time and risk. And as long as the developers tune that correctly, they can encourage players to play the game in a way that's fun and interesting, rather than tedious and boring.
You can change the way it takes to make money, but you can't actually stop gold farming, in fact the harder you make it the more valuable it is, so if one of the better spots only make you 1g an hour than 20g is a huge deal, so you can do whatever you want to slow down the process of making gold, but that only affects the value of the gold itself not the actually farming of gold.
Even with what Stellarmind and Trasak has said I've liked some fo the ideas they have brought up, but again it only slows down the process and doesn't eliminate it, which in fine slowing it down i think would be a great thing to accomplish for at least the beginning of the game but at end ga,e i don't see it doing much.
Riahuf22 said:
You can change the way it takes to make money, but you can't actually stop gold farming, in fact the harder you make it the more valuable it is, so if one of the better spots only make you 1g an hour than 20g is a huge deal, so you can do whatever you want to slow down the process of making gold, but that only affects the value of the gold itself not the actually farming of gold.
What's your point? You took issue with my original post, yet in this entire conversation you have yet to explain what you actually think the problem is. It really seems like you're arguing solely for the sake of arguing.
Yes, people will go out into the world and try to earn money to use. Yes, they will take whatever they view as the most efficient route. Do you feel they shouldn't be doing that at all? Or is it that you think there are "right" ways for people to do it and "wrong" ways and you have strong opinions about that? If you want to have a discussion about this, be specific and talk about why you're still arguing about my opinion six posts later.
Simply put - let's make earning money a bit more interesting than just killing the same things over and over for their drops. Wolf teeth notwithstanding.
Yes, people will go out into the world and try to earn money to use. Yes, they will take whatever they view as the most efficient route.
Nah i think i got my point across now, and they will do it whether or not it is "fun," simply becuase it is efficent.
Riahuf22 said:
Nah i think i got my point across now, and they will do it whether or not it is "fun," simply becuase it is efficent.
Oh, of course! I get it now. You don't want it to be fun and you were upset because I was advocating for it to be a fun and engaging activity instead of being boring and tedious. Man, it would have been so much easier if you had just come out and said that in the first place. Glad we could clear that up :)
No, most people who farm gold do it solo, and in a group orientated game if you want to do it solo you'll have to farm content you've outleveled to have it be efficent, and we also know it seems to be more about killing mobs than actual questing.
So if you add it all up, I don't see us getting Dailies, which to be honest is extremely boring anyway, or questing in geenral if they are more like tasks.
But I'll go through your list
Dailies= repetitive
Missions=Quest=repetitive
And the list keeps going all of it is repetitive, shot even daily quest is nothing more than a glorified way of killing mobs to make money, so your still killing mobs.
There just sin't a way to make gold farming in a way more fun honestly, unless you get a group in your guild with a like minded mindset to farm a particular area and split the profits or something, but even that is only fun probably becuase of the challenge that comes with it, but from a solo aspect you simply just ging to find a spot that holds little threat to you and simply farm your brains out and gain some coin along the way, but regardless all of it from a farming gold PoV it will become repetitive.
Our disagreement is that you do not believe that there is a way to make the activity of earning money fun or engaging. While I certainly agree that it can be repetitive and boring no matter how it's implemented, I disagree with you that there's not a way to make it fun for players to do. I'm not going to try to convince you, because that would be pointless. You believe what you believe. I'm neither that cynical nor that jaded, amazingly.
Thank you for finally taking the discussion seriously and explaining what you were getting at instead of simply arguing and trying to prove me "wrong". In the future, I would encourage you to simply start by voicing your own opinion and not worry about responding to people who have different opinions. You'll come across better doing that.
Inevitable
It is part of any RPG that I think I have ever played, all the way back to pen and paper. It is why I hold onto every last thing I loot and limp my way back to vendors. It is what drives the economy, it is integral to any game and really can't be avoided. When I am out farming to get something (mount, new weapon, or armor) I just view it as part of the game. We all farm xp, gold is just another currency that we have to farm.
Walpurgis said:Inevitable
It is part of any RPG that I think I have ever played, all the way back to pen and paper. It is why I hold onto every last thing I loot and limp my way back to vendors. It is what drives the economy, it is integral to any game and really can't be avoided. When I am out farming to get something (mount, new weapon, or armor) I just view it as part of the game. We all farm xp, gold is just another currency that we have to farm.
I completely agree with this. Obtaining gold in order to buy spells, gear, whatever is just as important to character progression as earning EXP. People find enjoyment in different things. Some nights I may not want to group and just watch a movie and grind on some trash mobs for gold. It benefits my character and allows me to play how I want. The more ways gold can be obtained the better because it allows for diverse play styles.
I see obtaining gold as less of an issue and a counter to inflation as more of a pressing matter. Gear repair has never been a good way of countering inflation. VR needs to develop a means to get gold out of the economy and I honestly don't think the answer is anything we've seen in a MMO so far.
Boring.
Clarification: That's only the sheer act of farming solely for currencies. Doing in game trade as a means of mercantile is something different IMO, and I like that. trading is part of a good fantasy world. So my response is solely for the behavior of currency farming, a.k.a. grinding for gold.
Inevitable/Necessary.
I say either/or, possibly both, because people are going to want to buy things in game that they want; just like people in real life want to buys things that they want. It COULD be avoided and rendered not necessary, but for that, quests would have to give either substantial amounts of money, not just enough to buy spells and such; or there would have to be near millions of quest lines in order to get the amount that one would want. They could always do repeatable dailies...which I don't mind...but they are rather tedious. You could make things worth a little more, but, then it's kind of the same issue with the daily quest thing. No body wants to see a flooded market of either gold or items, but it's human nature to want things. This is something I feel is going to happen no matter what.
I don't mind having people continuously kill things or loot things to sell to make money, so long as they aren't gold selling or even finding ways to illegally obtain digital currency, either by finding a duplication bug or hacking; then I'm alright with that. If someoen wants to spend their sub time repeatedly killing something in order to buy something they want, that's fine by me.