Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

PvP server qualms

    • 291 posts
    December 10, 2019 8:37 AM PST

    stellarmind said:

     

    the technology that uwudune and joppa were eluding is that they set the parameters of spells and abilities to have different scaling if the target was a player or a mob.

     

     

    Im looking very forward to testing all this out.

    • 2138 posts
    December 10, 2019 9:30 AM PST

    as a PvE carebear with FFA PvP desires, please define 3 way split? (I  know, I could go play Rust)

    Also, what are thoughts behind looting? will the combatants be allowed to loot one item or take coin from the defeated?

    • 1584 posts
    December 10, 2019 9:35 AM PST

    Manouk said:

    as a PvE carebear with FFA PvP desires, please define 3 way split? (I  know, I could go play Rust)

    Also, what are thoughts behind looting? will the combatants be allowed to loot one item or take coin from the defeated?

    Basically Pantheon right now has 9 races, so 3 races to each faction, people in same faction are friendly to each toher and cautious to the other 6.  this is at least what i mean by the 3 way split.

    just like how eq had 4 way split

    Evil: DE, Ogre, Troll, Iksar

    Elf: WoodElf, High elf Half Elf

    Normal : Human, Barbarian, Erudite

    Short: Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling.

    • 160 posts
    December 10, 2019 1:26 PM PST

    Kass said: I'm not looking for a "Utopia" - that's what PvE servers are for.

    Alright, if you welcome uneven (and from time to time, extremely unfair to impossible, and certainly inconvenient) PvP fights, then it comes from the realm of impossible to the realm of possible.

    The next question is if there are enough people who want that while understanding what that really is, to justify the designer and developer time - not the server itself, it's just a bunch of PCs in the cloud, but the dev time is what's really expensive here -  and the money that the company pays them?

     

    Pantheon dev team has always been a bit low on resources.

     

    I would prefer something like EQ 1 arena zones, or WoW Battlegrounds, where you come in if you want to, and stay out if you don't want to, on the same server. Then everyone on all servers could participate in it. And with the Battleground model you could ensure that both sides (or all sides, if there's more than two) have similar numbers and levels (and even item tiers) so that it's more or less fair.

     

    I'll fight anyone one or one - or group on group - as long as conditions are more or less equal. And as long as it only happens if both sides are in it voluntarily, since sometimes I want to just relax, and I should be able to... it's a game after all.

    If you want a Sullon Zek type of experience... well, to each his own. Not my cup of tea.

     

    • 291 posts
    December 10, 2019 1:41 PM PST

    Aethor said:

     

    If you want a Sullon Zek type of experience... well, to each his own. Not my cup of tea.

     

     

    Im with you here 1000%. Hope these guys like stellar find pantheons pvp to be every bit as awesome as we find our pve. Seems as close to utopia as we can hope for atm.

    • 1428 posts
    December 10, 2019 2:17 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    Manouk said:

    as a PvE carebear with FFA PvP desires, please define 3 way split? (I  know, I could go play Rust)

    Also, what are thoughts behind looting? will the combatants be allowed to loot one item or take coin from the defeated?

    Basically Pantheon right now has 9 races, so 3 races to each faction, people in same faction are friendly to each toher and cautious to the other 6.  this is at least what i mean by the 3 way split.

    just like how eq had 4 way split

    Evil: DE, Ogre, Troll, Iksar

    Elf: WoodElf, High elf Half Elf

    Normal : Human, Barbarian, Erudite

    Short: Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling.

     

    my issue with faction based pvp is it forces a predefined organization and not the players themselves.  conflict should begin and end with players, otherwise we end up with our own factions trolling us.

    i'd really like no faction restrictions when it comes to race association choices.  in pve, if you can party up with any race, shouldn't pvpers be able to too?

     

    to clear up any further issues, kass is referring to an open world pvp.  it's more along the lines of pvx?  so the uhh sullonn rage thingie isn't as chaotic or insane.  running away is an option.  think of team pubg.  independent groups from 1 man to a guild.

    these conflicts tend to be isolated as diplomancy and mini political movements happens in the game.  a player self governing system will arise.

    • 521 posts
    December 10, 2019 8:25 PM PST

    Giving this more thought I’d have to say my concerns remains the same, the introduction of PVP to pantheon could have a devastating effect on the game by creating a cycle of unbalances though Nerf's and Buffs. The issue of Class and Gear Balance have separate challenges between PVE and PVP, and this is the fundamental problem. Although, for the sake of discussion.

    Typically you see a separation of gear between PVE/PVP to solve this problem, and this can be somewhat successful if your PVP is restricted to a special Zone and no class imbalances are present(.)(.).

    However, Faction based PVP, such as the way ESO does it, with a central zone filled with control points IMO is probably the worst approach to adding PVP to Pantheon because it changes, or at least splits the end game dynamics of Pantheon from Dungeon Raiding to Faction wars while fueling a need to PVP specific gear.

    When I played WOW Vanilla (Dragonmaw) The Faction based PVP was fought in contested territory's, but that was all part of the world. This, I feel would be a better form of Faction based PVP over a special Zone.

    Second, I think the idea of separate gear for PVE and PVP should be ditched. The idea of Gear Specific to PVP roots back to balance of a 1v1 fight.

    Pantheon is Group centric, and that should extend to PVP. Gear and class imbalances could be compensated by using something like PVP specific gem slots on gear to allow the individual player)s) to insert gems filling the holes in the defenses.

    Maybe I’m a Rogue who finds wizards to be a particular pain to defeat, I could insert a Gem(s) to give me buffs/defenses against wizards in general, or maybe just a specific spell I don't like. This also lends to a bit of Uniqueness and uncertainty when facing opponents in battle, that wizard might just be prepared for a backstab.

    • 159 posts
    December 10, 2019 10:20 PM PST

    stellarmind said:

    my issue with faction based pvp is it forces a predefined organization and not the players themselves.  conflict should begin and end with players, otherwise we end up with our own factions trolling us.

    i'd really like no faction restrictions when it comes to race association choices.  in pve, if you can party up with any race, shouldn't pvpers be able to too?

    100% this. I look forward to allowing the players to determine who their enemies are.

    Also, for a lot of us the story - lore - is important. I have seen no indications through lore of a three way faction split based on races, so I wouldnt' want an artifical lore made up to satisfy a single PvP server that contridicts or sours the indended direction of the current story.

     

    stellarmind said:

    these conflicts tend to be isolated as diplomancy and mini political movements happens in the game.  a player self governing system will arise.

    In a free for all environment, I see some sort of unwritten rules / code arising as well. I don't think any of the players are looking to be griefed 24/7. Sure there will be some outliers that are just out to make life difficult for others with little interest to further their PvE progression, but that's where the community will come together and 'self govern' in some fashion to address it.

     

    HemlockReaper said:

    Giving this more thought I’d have to say my concerns remains the same, the introduction of PVP to pantheon could have a devastating effect on the game by creating a cycle of unbalances though Nerf's and Buffs. The issue of Class and Gear Balance have separate challenges between PVE and PVP, and this is the fundamental problem. Although, for the sake of discussion.

    Typically you see a separation of gear between PVE/PVP to solve this problem, and this can be somewhat successful if your PVP is restricted to a special Zone and no class imbalances are present(.)(.).

    Not sure if you missed it or don't fully believe it, but VR has stated they 100% are planning for PvE and PvP balancing to have zero affect on each other, by the way they design and code abilities/combat.

    I agree with a lot of your points, and don't like most of those things as well, but it should be a non issue in Pantheon, as that is not how it's going to be implemented.

    Alyonyah said:

    Aethor said:

     

    If you want a Sullon Zek type of experience... well, to each his own. Not my cup of tea.

     

     

    Im with you here 1000%. Hope these guys like stellar find pantheons pvp to be every bit as awesome as we find our pve. Seems as close to utopia as we can hope for atm.

    Just to reiterate (my opinion). It's not that I welcome "bad" behavior in PvP, but I accept it must come along with the aspects of world PvP that I love. I hope they implement in a way that allows us (the players) to dictate what is acceptable (with a few exceptions).

     

    Personally for me, battlegrounds or arena style PvP isn't my cup of tea. I may participate to show off my skills, but I like the world interaction and that's what my OP was about.

     

    I guess the best way I can explain it is, it makes zero sense in my mind how I could be adventuring in a fantasy world that other people are not allowed to attack me in, or vice versa - it is just inherently wrong to me and makes no sense. I get that NPCs are the "bad" guys, but it's just not the same. If a player is conducting themselves in a way that you feel is rude/innapropriate on a PvE server, you have no choice but to just accept it. I don't want to live in a world where everyone is just reporting each other left and right for things they don't like and hoping the GMs agree and punish... I prefer the world where I can take matters into my own hands if I feel I am capable to do so.

     

    • 521 posts
    December 10, 2019 10:30 PM PST

    @Kass

    I’m aware of whats been stated as design goals concerning the PVP issue, and I don't doubt their integrity. I just have reservations on how successful it will be, and wonder its if worth risking what appears to be a solid PVE game.

    • 159 posts
    December 10, 2019 10:34 PM PST

    HemlockReaper said:

    @Kass

    I’m aware of whats been stated as design goals concerning the PVP issue, and I don't doubt their integrity. I just have reservations on how successful it will be, and wonder its if worth risking what appears to be a solid PVE game.

    Personally, if VR came out and stated that the separate PvP / PvE data streams were not working as intended and they couldn't get them right, I could accept the fact that they would go PvE only, and I would still be a happy camper - Pantheon excites me. That being said, I would always feel like there was something missing with my experience.

     

    I think it's irrelevant though, and I don't think you guys should worry about that. VR stated it is a fairly simple concept to implement and they seem committed to seeing through a PvP server at launch -> based on FAQ, Brad's past blogs, and what Kilsin stated earlier in the thread.

    • 752 posts
    December 11, 2019 5:35 AM PST
    Give me the right pvp rule-set and i would give it a try. I dont mind the idea i just havent seen a rule-set that matched my playstyle. And i dont go looking for those rule-sets ..... so i have just kept it pve and i avoid pvp areas. I have recently been playing some faction rule-set games which has allowed me to play in safe areas but it limits what i can do ingame exploration-wise
    • 3852 posts
    December 11, 2019 6:57 AM PST

     

    This isn't among my core issues though I will have characters on a pvp server if I like the ruleset. But two points here got my attention.

    1. It is unrealistic to be unable to attack anyone else, and have them unable to attack you. This is manifestly correct - a game imposed immunity *is* unrealistic. But so too in almost any likely society is the lack of laws imposed by a tribe or nation or other organization. For realism perhaps we need anyone to be able to attack anyone else - but if they do it in a way that violates whatever norms are accepted NPC police swoop over and kill them or put them in jail. Yet few if any of us would want that. So perhaps we need to just accept that, to paraphrase Ayn Rand - when it comes to pvp we are faced with realism - the unknown ideal.

    2. Faction-based pvp imposes an organization and reduces player control over how they exist and interrelate. This too is manifestly correct. It is precisely why I like it. I tend to be lawful-good. Killing other players for a cause appeals to me. Killing other players solely for personal aggrandizement does not.

    • 1428 posts
    December 11, 2019 1:17 PM PST

    dorotea said:

     

    This isn't among my core issues though I will have characters on a pvp server if I like the ruleset. But two points here got my attention.

    1. It is unrealistic to be unable to attack anyone else, and have them unable to attack you. This is manifestly correct - a game imposed immunity *is* unrealistic. But so too in almost any likely society is the lack of laws imposed by a tribe or nation or other organization. For realism perhaps we need anyone to be able to attack anyone else - but if they do it in a way that violates whatever norms are accepted NPC police swoop over and kill them or put them in jail. Yet few if any of us would want that. So perhaps we need to just accept that, to paraphrase Ayn Rand - when it comes to pvp we are faced with realism - the unknown ideal.

    2. Faction-based pvp imposes an organization and reduces player control over how they exist and interrelate. This too is manifestly correct. It is precisely why I like it. I tend to be lawful-good. Killing other players for a cause appeals to me. Killing other players solely for personal aggrandizement does not.

     

    sometimes the law has trash that needs to be taken out.  imagine how much better the police would be if they could pvp their own faction.  oo man that's dark maybe i'll put this on hold i don't want the fbi to frame me for files i didn't know i had.

    • 1584 posts
    December 11, 2019 1:29 PM PST

    stellarmind said:

    dorotea said:

     

    This isn't among my core issues though I will have characters on a pvp server if I like the ruleset. But two points here got my attention.

    1. It is unrealistic to be unable to attack anyone else, and have them unable to attack you. This is manifestly correct - a game imposed immunity *is* unrealistic. But so too in almost any likely society is the lack of laws imposed by a tribe or nation or other organization. For realism perhaps we need anyone to be able to attack anyone else - but if they do it in a way that violates whatever norms are accepted NPC police swoop over and kill them or put them in jail. Yet few if any of us would want that. So perhaps we need to just accept that, to paraphrase Ayn Rand - when it comes to pvp we are faced with realism - the unknown ideal.

    2. Faction-based pvp imposes an organization and reduces player control over how they exist and interrelate. This too is manifestly correct. It is precisely why I like it. I tend to be lawful-good. Killing other players for a cause appeals to me. Killing other players solely for personal aggrandizement does not.

     

    sometimes the law has trash that needs to be taken out.  imagine how much better the police would be if they could pvp their own faction.  oo man that's dark maybe i'll put this on hold i don't want the fbi to frame me for files i didn't know i had.

    I don't know if they will add it or not but I'm sure you kill a Halfling you might lose faction to that Halfling faction as a whole so if you kill to many regardless of your race you could become kos, now i could be wrong on this of course, but if they are going to tr yto make factions important it would make sense to add it in, but i could understand why they wouldn't as well.

    • 1428 posts
    December 11, 2019 2:52 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    I don't know if they will add it or not but I'm sure you kill a Halfling you might lose faction to that Halfling faction as a whole so if you kill to many regardless of your race you could become kos, now i could be wrong on this of course, but if they are going to tr yto make factions important it would make sense to add it in, but i could understand why they wouldn't as well.

    i don't have any qualms with pve factions.

    player guilds are factions too.

    and my issues aren't with pve factions, it's with other players.  let pvp be pvp if that makes sense.  they can exist separate from pve factions.  this way you don't have to create some insane lore what this race gorup wants to kill this race group because some human wanted to steal the wife of a fish person that wanted to hook up with a elf person that really didn't want either and just wanted to friend zone every other race.


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at December 11, 2019 2:54 PM PST
    • 9115 posts
    December 11, 2019 4:31 PM PST

    Hegenox said:

    Kilsin said:

    I have explained this previously mate - when we show off PvP we will open subforums for PvPers to discuss that playstyle, until then, we focus on the core PvE game and focus discussions around that and what we have already shown off and plan to show off in the near future.

    I don't want to create separate topic just for this so I'll ask here since the topic of subforums has been touched: How about subforum for people "Looking for a Guild"? There is a forum where guilds advertise themselves, but why not give "mercenaries" opportunity to show intent of finding a "liege" or family with traits and values that they are searching for?

    Done :)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/77


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at December 12, 2019 2:18 AM PST