Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Where do you draw the line between

    • 62 posts
    November 14, 2019 1:31 PM PST

    If my group has to spend over an hour trying to beat a boss then I start losing interest. 

  • November 14, 2019 2:42 PM PST
    The fun stops as soon as:
    - the reward isn't worth it.
    - the means to overcome the challenge is repetitive
    - success is purely based on luck
    - there is no purpose to the challenge
    - there are no creative alternative solutions to the challenge
    - long term odds of success are slim to none.
    • 1196 posts
    November 14, 2019 3:24 PM PST

    For me and mine, it's fun as long as there is a chance to tangibly improve, progress, obtain something useful and/or learn something new.
    Challenge (from the same audience) is when something requires every member of the group/multi-group to perform their role well. 
    Additionally, challenge (for me personally) is also when the game permits something, but the time investment required is significant, because I'm willing to put that time in, individually.

    If there is no path forward, there's no fun, for us.  Certain goals can be extremely challenging to achieve, no issue with that, but if they're actually/mathematically impossible?  That's too challenging.  I mean, we're all paying for entertainment, right?  I have no interest in paying for guaranteed failure or victimization.

    I guess it comes down to.. we want less skinner box and more deep mechanics. :)

    • 2531 posts
    November 14, 2019 3:41 PM PST

    A major strength of Pantheon will hopefully be the world and the story. Before you say "what story - go back to LOTRO if you want a story" I should say that by story I mean what is going on in the world and in the part of it you are exploring. Not a story centered on the character - a story that the character can participate in or not as you see fit.

    This gives room to have a mix of challenge levels. Some content for the hardcore "it isn't fun if it isn't darn near impossible" crowd and some content for the "I would like to relax and enjoy what is going on and not be at risk of death every minute - at least not with a decent group of players who are competant" crowd.

    Note that easier content may well be used to gate harder content but the reverse should never be the case. Darn near impossible content should not block progress for others it should be there for its own sake.

    • 1848 posts
    November 14, 2019 5:44 PM PST

    As long as it's possible during the current expansion without exploits, then I am good. If there is no way that I can accomplish it, then it's too much.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at November 14, 2019 5:45 PM PST
    • 42 posts
    November 14, 2019 7:45 PM PST
    Fun challenges are those which are overcome by using brainpower to figure out viable tactics and strategies.

    Unfun challenges are those which require mindless grinding or repetition. They are a chore, not a puzzle. Examples include arbitrary limitations like overly restrictive user interface, annoying rules whose only purpose is to make easy content harder, and grind-heavy, lazy quests like "kill X mobs".

    Do not confuse time-consuming or difficult with challenging. For example, orcing someone to manually re-equip ever item one at a time (instead of all it once) is tedious and doesn't add to the game's challenge. Having a disorientation effect that temporarily reverses directional inputs is a fun challenge.
    • 84 posts
    November 14, 2019 7:46 PM PST

    Fun and challenge are inextricably linked, IMHO. The line where challenge stops being fun usually falls where my teammates get frustrated and salty beyond the ability of my calm spells.

    • 156 posts
    November 15, 2019 6:27 AM PST
    If there is only one way I get bored. Nothing worse than a fight that has one and only one solution. That kind of "challenge" doesnt interest me. If I dont have a certain class present I dont want that to be the end. Make it so a creative group can still get it done. Might be harder to take longer but it's still possible.
  • November 15, 2019 9:20 AM PST
    This is a pretty good question to pose, I think there are some great answers here with lots of folks agreeing. Neat!
    • 238 posts
    November 15, 2019 10:10 AM PST

    I am always in favor of challenging games, but strongly believe the challenge needs to be "reasonable and appropriate." That is, the challenge should be such that a skilled and careful player can usually find ways to overcome it with enough diligence. That certainly doesn't mean that death should never occur -- far from it. To die multiple times while attempting an encounter, event, etc. and slowly putting together a strategy to beat it can be very rewarding and fun. But an appropriately challenging game should test the player's ability without ever resorting to tactics and mechanics that are cheap or outright unfair. Even if the player can find a way to circumvent mechanics such as these, the sense of achievement vanishes, because it only feels like you found a way to cheat your way through a game that was already cheating you.

    In short, give me strong challenge, but also give me the tools to overcome that challenge...and let me figure out on my own how best to use them.

    • 102 posts
    November 15, 2019 10:53 AM PST

    I wondering if Games like EQ or any MMORPG involve mostly risk and not challenge

    "A risk is something that could happen, that you'll look to prevent if possible, or have contingencies in place. A challenge is something that is already the case that you'll have to deal with" - quote from google. 

    When the player gains gear or new skills it's about mitigating the risk. Progressing skills involve mitigating future risk. Solo Exploration is mostly taking chances of trying not to pull one or too many NPCs. Most of the time there is no hard challenge. Maybe understanding your class adds a bit of challenge but throughout an average playthrough, there are very few challenges. We group up to reduce risk, it's not so much about how challenging the content is. 

    Is the challenge of MMORPGs about mitigating risk and progressing to beat new risks? with no actual challenging game mechanics.

    • 126 posts
    November 16, 2019 2:31 PM PST

    The only time I was not having fun in EQ was during planes of power.  Missed a couple guild raids for those PoP keys/flags due to ... that thing called career.  Tried to (/ooc /tell) to a few non-guild gathering raids to attend their key/flag raid at the time.  Whatever the reason couldn't make that happen.  Eventually my guild + an ally held a couple raids to help get those back keys/flags.  I had the levels, the AAs, the 5 years of playing EQ under my belt, the guild/friendly guilds, but keys/flags held me up from moving forward into the content for those couple weeks.  When you sign on you want to play the hardest/highest content you can y'know.

     

    Otherwise moar of the challenge EQ had.

    • 694 posts
    November 16, 2019 3:59 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Where do you draw the line between fun and challenge, when does the fun stop and the challenge just become too much in MMORPGs or is there such a thing as too much challenge? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    To actually answer the O.P., "I draw the line" when I can't accomplish a task WHILE simultaneously having fun (even a small amount).  Things like naked corpse runs are a challenge that are literally nothing more than a punishment to instill a false sense of trepidation when the fact that you failed the task you were attempting to accomplish + lost experience (and more importantly, your real life time) is more than enough punishment for a video game.  20 years ago, people could spend all of their free time sitting around doing nothing and call that "playing a game" because there were very few options for gamers compared to today.  

    • 64 posts
    November 17, 2019 5:01 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    A major strength of Pantheon will hopefully be the world and the story. Before you say "what story - go back to LOTRO if you want a story" I should say that by story I mean what is going on in the world and in the part of it you are exploring. Not a story centered on the character - a story that the character can participate in or not as you see fit.

    This gives room to have a mix of challenge levels. Some content for the hardcore "it isn't fun if it isn't darn near impossible" crowd and some content for the "I would like to relax and enjoy what is going on and not be at risk of death every minute - at least not with a decent group of players who are competant" crowd.

    Note that easier content may well be used to gate harder content but the reverse should never be the case. Darn near impossible content should not block progress for others it should be there for its own sake.

    Well said. I agree.

    -----

    I love a challenge. I love completing things that most others cannot, or at least not as effeciently as me. Challenging = fun if it is working toward an in-game goal.

    A simple way for me to define it is attrition rate. As in what percentage of players/groups fail and how many tries does the average player need to succeed. If everyone that tries it can complete it first try, then it's typically not very challenging. If a more skilled/experienced player or group can do something faster than another group, then there is a challenge in being more effecient as well.

    Off the top of my head, different ways an MMO can be challenging and fun:

    - Tricky pulls of mobs where experience and timing come into play. Avoiding the patrols or knowing what order to clear a hall or room in to avoid disaster.

    - Grinding for a reward. Sometimes the challenge is to weed out players by seeing who is dedicated enough to grind a certain gathering or kill quest for hours or days upon end to reach their goal.

    - Implementing mob / boss mechanics that are impactful and require players to have the knowhow and the skills to innterupt, dodge, avoid, or mitigate the impact of said mechanics.

    - Timed quests. Given a time limit that is meaningful to complete a task that may require terrain knowledge, planning and/or clever tactics.

    - Dynamic quests. For example, find a way to make a fetch quest challenging (ie. to search out a scroll held by enemy forces). Perhaps instead of 1 spawn point that can be easily 'googled', give it 100 spawn points throughout the camp/caverns, forcing a player to actually be perception and vigiliant in their search to succeed.

     

    Not challenging/fun:

    - Extreme RNG or unfair mechanics with no counterplay. Ie. It's not challenging to fight mobs that have a % chance to inflict 100% lethal damage with an auto attack. 

    - Forcing players to log on for a certain event that only happens on Wednesdays between 5-6pm to receive an item that is the only way they can be viable for the weekends raid.

    - Content that only a very specific group composition can complete. Although I'm all for requiring people to work together, there needs to be a little leeway in this. (Ie. The only way to open this magical door to the boss room is to have an enchanter in the group with a specific talent spec < not fun)

     

    edit: also, I don't think that all players are entitled to complete all content if they don't have the experience/skill and aren't willing to put in the time/preparation.

     


    This post was edited by Kass at November 17, 2019 5:09 AM PST
    • 138 posts
    November 17, 2019 7:16 AM PST

    Why are these two thing being compared again? They have little to do with each other in the actual average gamer's mind.  MMORPG Gamer's mind are typcailly (not always) goal oriented.  We log in because we want something, whether that is levels, items, fame, friends, it doesn't matter.  The challenge is the completion of our goal.  The fun comes in growth, friendship, and achievement.  

    Furthermore, no two minds are the same and some people see fun and challenge in completely different ways.  To some fun is derived from challenge, the more challanging, the more fun.  Failure only means you have more to discover and learn.  In Everquest - Scars of Velious, a creature was made so ridiculously power that no one was meant to overcome it.  A loot table wasn't even given to it because the devs couldn't imagine anyone ever taking it down.  This is what some would describe as 'not fun' or 'too challenging'.  However, despite all that, people sought to destroy the undestroyable simply because it was said to be impossible.  Even though they were not physically rewarded for eventually defeating the undefeatable (no exp no loot), they still experienced the greatest joy of their EQ lives at that moment.  Challange lights fires in peoples hearts and gives them joy in the journey.  Nothing can compare to that moment when you overcome something you had previously thought impossible.

    The take away from this is: rather than looking for that 'fine line' between the two, understand they are intertwined and find ways to help people enjoy the challenge.

    • 64 posts
    November 17, 2019 4:08 PM PST

    @Kargen

    At first I was going to disagree with your opening statements but you cleared it up for me by the end. I really enjoyed and connected with your post.

    But, I have to point out I was a little confused because there seemed to be a disconnect between these two statements:

    Kargen said:

    Why are these two thing being compared again? They have little to do with each other in the actual average gamer's mind... The take away from this is: rather than looking for that 'fine line' between the two, understand they are intertwined and find ways to help people enjoy the challenge.

    For a lot of people challenge and fun go hand and hand. Although I have fun doing less challenging things in MMOs, the most fun/rewarding experience I've had are probably in completing difficult content with others.


    This post was edited by Kass at November 17, 2019 4:09 PM PST