Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Do you like being able to change

    • 3237 posts
    November 12, 2019 6:55 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    I'm sure at end game gear is probably going to look pretty good, maybe a bit mis matching to a point possibly but look fairly awesome at the same time, and again like I've been saying I have no problem with cosmetic gear, i just don't want to see it myself but understand people like it, but even though you like it and want to see yourself wear it doesn't mean i should have to see it if i dont want to, and i think that should be respected and not challenged.

    There is one very basic reason why I disagree with this assertion.  If an enchanter uses an illusion spell to make them appear as a different race ... does that same logic still apply?  Should every single player in the game have the option to disable player-character illusions?  I don't see how an enchanter illusion is all that much different from an appearance slot.  If I were to play an enchanter and unlock a really cool looking illusion spell ... it loses a decent amount of its value if other players can simply turn it off, especially in the context of the all-important social setting that Pantheon wants to bring back.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at November 12, 2019 6:57 PM PST
    • 2130 posts
    November 12, 2019 7:09 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    I'm sure at end game gear is probably going to look pretty good, maybe a bit mis matching to a point possibly but look fairly awesome at the same time, and again like I've been saying I have no problem with cosmetic gear, i just don't want to see it myself but understand people like it, but even though you like it and want to see yourself wear it doesn't mean i should have to see it if i dont want to, and i think that should be respected and not challenged.

    The thread title says "debate". Opinions do not deserve respect by default, and they sure as hell are never above being challenged.

    It's hard to debate about something as subjective as this, anyway. Vaccines don't cause autism. There is no analogue to that on this particular topic. We're just going to disagree and ultimately nothing will come of it until VR pulls the trigger on something.

    "I prefer this, respect it and don't challenge it" is not an argument, though.


    This post was edited by Liav at November 12, 2019 7:12 PM PST
    • 1584 posts
    November 12, 2019 7:12 PM PST

    well for one they are two completely different things, and if i even have to explain to how they are than the fact you even brought it up loses traction to me, at this point i feel liek your spliting hairs trying to find anything to grab a hold of to continue to argue a PoV that only beenfits you and like minded individuals without any regard of hjow people like me think, or simply like your opinion is superior and i need to simply accept that. (which btw i won't).  i believe the toggle is actually a good thing it lets the ones that want to see cosmetic do just that without any fuss from people who don't want to see it, and also allows people who don't want to see cosmetic gear not see it without preventing you from obtaining such items, your simply just trying to be greedy.

    • 1584 posts
    November 12, 2019 7:28 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    I'm sure at end game gear is probably going to look pretty good, maybe a bit mis matching to a point possibly but look fairly awesome at the same time, and again like I've been saying I have no problem with cosmetic gear, i just don't want to see it myself but understand people like it, but even though you like it and want to see yourself wear it doesn't mean i should have to see it if i dont want to, and i think that should be respected and not challenged.

    The thread title says "debate". Opinions do not deserve respect by default, and they sure as hell are never above being challenged.

    It's hard to debate about something as subjective as this, anyway. Vaccines don't cause autism. There is no analogue to that on this particular topic. We're just going to disagree and ultimately nothing will come of it until VR pulls the trigger on something.

    "I prefer this, respect it and don't challenge it" is not an argument, though.

     

     

    fine i debate all gear should be earned and have no cosmetic gear at all and therefore we need no toggle at all

    see now im not compromising with ypu see how now instead of trying to work with you im completely against you and now you wish you could have that toggle?

    btw still for the toggle just showing you how your technically getting ewhat you want with my point of view your just being greedy and overactting to a small concept you wouldn't care for within a week of making a cosmetic appearance is all.

    • 2130 posts
    November 12, 2019 7:33 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    fine i debate all gear should be earned and have no cosmetic gear at all and therefore we need no toggle at all

    see now im not compromising with ypu see how now instead of trying to work with you im completely against you and now you wish you could have that toggle?

    btw still for the toggle just showing you how your technically getting ewhat you want with my point of view your just being greedy and overactting to a small concept you wouldn't care for within a week of making a cosmetic appearance is all.

    Reading isn't your strong suit.

    1. All gear should be earned, yes. Appearance gear has nothing to do with that. You literally have no idea what you're talking about but you have no problem filling multiple pages of a thread pretending that you do.

    2. I would rather not have a toggle regardless of whether or not we have appearance gear. Every player should see other players exactly the same way.

    3. I disagree with your point of view so no, I would not be getting what I want. Feel free to keep calling me greedy though, it definitely makes you seem like your opinion is more valuable I guess?


    This post was edited by Liav at November 12, 2019 7:33 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    November 12, 2019 7:35 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    well for one they are two completely different things, and if i even have to explain to how they are than the fact you even brought it up loses traction to me, at this point i feel liek your spliting hairs trying to find anything to grab a hold of to continue to argue a PoV that only beenfits you and like minded individuals without any regard of hjow people like me think, or simply like your opinion is superior and i need to simply accept that. (which btw i won't).  i believe the toggle is actually a good thing it lets the ones that want to see cosmetic do just that without any fuss from people who don't want to see it, and also allows people who don't want to see cosmetic gear not see it without preventing you from obtaining such items, your simply just trying to be greedy.

    I understand how changing the appearance of a weapon/armor is different from changing the appearance of a character model, the same way our first name is different from our last name.  In the end, though, they are more similar than they are different.  Ignoring those similarities and treating them as "two completely different things" seems like you aren't being very open-minded.  That is fine, of course, as there is no expectation of people being open-minded on this forum.  This isn't a matter of viewing an opinion as superior.  I'm trying to be objective here and asked a valid question.  Would enchanters be considered greedy or have a superiority complex if they had an expectation that their illusions were persistent for all rather than something players could simply toggle on/off?  Would it be a good thing for the game, overall, if players could simply disable character-illusions in an effort to avoid the fuss that might otherwise occur?  What if managing appearance slots required a reagent from the enchanter class?


    This post was edited by oneADseven at November 12, 2019 7:38 PM PST
    • 1584 posts
    November 12, 2019 7:40 PM PST

    I do know what im talking about you just simply just want to have this entire topic go your way, which is the definition of being greedy, there is no need for there not to be a toggle, it doesn't hurt or "diminish" it in anyway other than you want to imagine that it does.  

    So, how about instead of trying to insult me stick to the topic, a toggle does nothing to you and i'll ask you the same question

    Are you going to run all through terminus and ask everyone you see if they have their toggle on or are you going to stop asking by the time you find your first outpost, and when you answer this ill tell you how much you actually care if i have mine on or not.

    • 1584 posts
    November 12, 2019 7:51 PM PST

    1AD7 cosmetic gear, is simply fake gear over your adventure gear to make yourself look the way you want to look to you, and i guess to others, for maybe a week and than probably not care anymore, and maybe even forget your wearing cosmetic gear in general, as for illusions is a spell, with a duration thats needs to be refresh when the time runs out and in as many ways you try to find them similair i could surely pick them apart and show you how in many ways they are extremely different.

     


    This post was edited by Cealtric at November 12, 2019 7:55 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    November 12, 2019 8:52 PM PST

    The gear isn't fake.  We're talking about players using the appearance of real gear that was earned through gameplay.  You are correct in saying that the entire premise of "appearance slots" could be forgotten, or that players could stop caring about it.  If that were to happen ... it would certainly be a result of players feeling that it's no longer worth the effort.  Several people have already said on this very thread that they may as well ignore appearance slots altogether if other players can simply disable them.  Allowing players to disable appearance gear is self-defeating in many ways.  We're talking about a social game with shared experiences.  There are three game tenets that seem to suggest that persistent appearance slots would be objectively better than toggled:

    A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.

    A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

    A belief that game economies should be predicated on delaying and minimizing item value deflation.

    There are other tenets which would be realized in a more ... indirect fashion, but the three above are all pretty clear.  Appearance gear will absolutely help with delaying/minimizing item value deflation.  The more desirable appearance gear is, the more that tenet can be realized.  When it comes to sharing a sense of accomplishment ... appearance slots deliver again.  You aren't limited to showing off your full set of matching gear in-town or other areas that are generally devoid of danger.  You can show off your set at any time ... even 10 years down the road, potentially after the set no longer drops in-game but is severely outdated in terms of stat viability.  When it comes to prestige ... let's ask Merriam Webster:

    Prestige:  widespread respect and admiration felt for someone or something on the basis of a perception of their achievements or quality.

    As you can see ... prestige only exists in the eyes of others.  If other players don't see the hard-earned full set of gear that you acquired then how much is that tenet being realized?  Does it make sense to allow others to toggle off your element of prestige?  In an open world game?  The point of an open-world game is to interact with others ... to share in experiences, earn a reputation, etc.  Pantheon is supposed to focus on social aspects of play.  How is the toggle in any way social?  I think it's safe to say that the prestige element is diminished if other players turn their toggle off.  We're supposed to "embrace the players around us" but when I read through threads like this one ... yikes.  Some players don't seem to be on board with that.  Some folks seem conditioned by fear of the unknown.  They want to diminish the value of self-expression because of ... bad memories?  Other games?  Bad memories from other games?  If Pantheon doesn't create a single art asset that doesn't belong in a high fantasy world then what are players so worried about?  Violation of ridiculous freedoms and rights?  Seriously?  What about principles?  What about the foundational pillars that this game is being built on?


    This post was edited by oneADseven at November 12, 2019 9:06 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    November 12, 2019 10:47 PM PST

    I think I have changed my mind. I am going to be against appearance armor slots. So no need for a toggle. If you want to change your appearance of course you can, by swaping out the armor your are wearing for anoter one. If how you look to everyone else is so important to you then you have to make a decision, wear the better peice of gear or wear the pretty one.

    While I am sure the devs will not have santa hats and candy cane sword in the game at launch or maybe even ever there is no way to predict what will happen later. I want this to be a go to game for me for years. Having appearance slots is just the doorway to the silly stuff. It won't be long before people are demaning nicer or sillier things for appearance. I don't know if they will give in but the temptation for easy money will be there.

     

    • 2756 posts
    November 13, 2019 2:03 AM PST

    Zorkon said:

    They have mentioned in the past they are building all kinds of data collection into the game.

    I'd be really curious the percentage that would be playing with cosmetics toggled OFF during beta.

    They'd have to be careful to get meaning from that.

    I would, for example, be playing with cosmetics toggled off, because if there is a toggle, cosmetics are largely pointless and confusing, so I would switch them off and ignore the feature.  I don't want some ridiculous world where half the players see one thing and half something else, so I'd boycott it completely.

    Not because I don't want a wardrobe feature, but because the way it is implemented makes it no good.

    • 2756 posts
    November 13, 2019 2:06 AM PST

    Sabot said:

    I think I have changed my mind. I am going to be against appearance armor slots. So no need for a toggle. If you want to change your appearance of course you can, by swaping out the armor your are wearing for anoter one. If how you look to everyone else is so important to you then you have to make a decision, wear the better peice of gear or wear the pretty one.

    While I am sure the devs will not have santa hats and candy cane sword in the game at launch or maybe even ever there is no way to predict what will happen later. I want this to be a go to game for me for years. Having appearance slots is just the doorway to the silly stuff. It won't be long before people are demaning nicer or sillier things for appearance. I don't know if they will give in but the temptation for easy money will be there. 

    If they insist on a toggle, I too would vote for not bothering with appearance slots since it would just be a waste of dev time and would bizarrely split the community into two halves each seeing player models differently.

    As for assuming appearance slots will devolve into silly stuff, well if you don't trust VR on that *shrug* I don't know what to say.

    • 2756 posts
    November 13, 2019 2:31 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    Liav said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    I'm sure at end game gear is probably going to look pretty good, maybe a bit mis matching to a point possibly but look fairly awesome at the same time, and again like I've been saying I have no problem with cosmetic gear, i just don't want to see it myself but understand people like it, but even though you like it and want to see yourself wear it doesn't mean i should have to see it if i dont want to, and i think that should be respected and not challenged.

    The thread title says "debate". Opinions do not deserve respect by default, and they sure as hell are never above being challenged.

    It's hard to debate about something as subjective as this, anyway. Vaccines don't cause autism. There is no analogue to that on this particular topic. We're just going to disagree and ultimately nothing will come of it until VR pulls the trigger on something.

    "I prefer this, respect it and don't challenge it" is not an argument, though.

    fine i debate all gear should be earned and have no cosmetic gear at all and therefore we need no toggle at all

    see now im not compromising with ypu see how now instead of trying to work with you im completely against you and now you wish you could have that toggle?

    btw still for the toggle just showing you how your technically getting ewhat you want with my point of view your just being greedy and overactting to a small concept you wouldn't care for within a week of making a cosmetic appearance is all.

    Haha and ironically I would prefer your 'extreme' option of no cosmetic gear at all rather than have it toggled X^)

    No, I wouldn't wish for a toggle *and* cosmetic gear: the toggle makes it pointless and weird.

    And no, we are not 'technically' getting what we want using a toggle for the many reasons several people have already stated.  The toggle 100% gives purists what they want and maybe 0-50% gives others what they want.  Great 'compromise'.

    And the accusations of greed and over-reaction are just hilarious.

    Are you just not understanding or refusing to because you don't agree and won't accept there can be a valid differing opinion?  It is not a 'small concept' that appearance gear should be seen by everyone if it is to be worth having.  A toggle would split the community into those that see and those that don't creating a bizarre immersion mess and the fact that half (or more or less who knows) of the community don't see the appearance gear and see the 'real 'gear that you don't want them to makes the value of the whole thing dimished to the point of being worthless.

    Splitting the community, damaging immersion and rendering a feature largely worthless is not a 'small concept'.

    As I've said before, it's not the end of the world to not have appearance gear at all, but what is with the dogmatic assertion that a toggle is a perfect solution in the face of reasoned counter-argument and opinion?  You really suggest it simply is somehow an objectively small issue to everyone?  You may consider it a small issue worth overriding to get what you want, but to suggest it isn't or can't be or shouldn't be a large issue to others and that their opinions and desires are less important than yours?  That they are 'greedy' and 'over-reacting' to feel that way?  Wow.

    If you don't care what others see and you believe that 'reality' should always be perceived?  Fine!  That's you're opinion.  I understand and respect that.  But to suggest that others that disagree and *do* care what others see and believe fantasy outweighs 'reality' (in a role-playing game?... go figure) are somehow 'wrong' (and greedy and over-reacting)?  Well, you can, I suppose, but it doesn't reflect on you well.


    This post was edited by disposalist at November 13, 2019 2:31 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    November 13, 2019 3:03 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    How absurd someone might want to play in and see the world and all within it as they actually are and not with an imaginary filter applied! Being able to see what others are equipped with from mere sight? Outrageous I say! Why, they shouldn't be able to know what I am wearing at all unless I tell them!

    And this statement displays exactly where the mis-understanding is.  The whole game is an 'imaginary filter'.  As for "they shouldn't be able to know", well, I wonder why there was an option to disable /inspect in EQ?  Yeah, you made the comment facetiously, but actually *some* people *don't* want others to know *at all*.  We haven't even touched on those people in this thread.  I'm guessing they have *no* chance of their opinion not being ridiculed.

    I respect your opinion.  You believe the 'reality' of what your character wears is what should be displayed.  I don't disagree, because it's a subjective opinion and I understand it.

    I don't hold a completely contrary opinion, either.  I would *prefer* to simply be able to alter the appearance of items I don't like the look of in a realistic way.  I might prefer to let an overly-shiny breastplate get a dull patina or go rusty.  I might prefer to wear a cloak inside out because the pattern is too garish.  I might pay to enamel my greaves or paint my gloves.  I might use sashes or medallions or other accessories to make me recognisable.  I might drape chainmail or leather over stuff I don't like.

    Since the game is unlikely to allow that complexity and detail, though, I would like a system like in LOTRO wear you could 'store' the look of a previous item and override the current with that one.  The item was earned and worn.  The look is sensible and appropriate.  That's all.  If someone really wants to know what my gear is, then they can /inspect.  Everyone is happy, right?  (Except those poor guys who actually want their gear to be private, but to hell with those idiots! ;^)

    In a truly 'realistic' game world, items would all be unique, of course.  You wouldn't know what you were looking at except in the most extreme cases and even then who has seen Excalibur before to really know that is what they are seeing?  But, it's a game.  The whole concept of having prestige because people somehow know what gear you have obtained just be looking at you is made up.  Two people can't kill the same creature and get the same item.  But there's an 'imaginary filter' to realism there, if you like, yes?...  But that one is legitimate and appearance slots are not?  Mmm Hmm.

    What if I want to show my face? I take off my helmet, right? Oh, goody, I don't have to because there's a "don't show helmet" option.  But that's not 'real'!  Maybe that appearance override shouldn't be possible, or maybe we should have another toggle so that others *can* see people's helmets even if they toggle them off...  and cloaks, of course, because that seems to be another common appearance toggle...  Sometimes shoulders too...  That must all be 'wrong' or need a third-person toggle?

    I'm hoping this extensive waffle is somehow helping us to come to an understanding.  We usually can and do in these forums, @Iksar.

    The crux of the matter is this: To some people (I feel comfortable saying 'a lot') what *others* see of their character is important.  That is not 'wrong' it is a subjective desire.  It's also not unusual in a role-playing game and has been around since people painted miniatures and made character portraits for Dungeons and Dragons.  It's not a modern affectation, though, yes, many modern MMOs have taken it to extremes that make it ridiculous and undesirable.  No one wants that in Pantheon and that is not what is being asked for.

    • 2756 posts
    November 13, 2019 3:11 AM PST

    Let me throw this into the discussion: -

    How about to change the appearance of my gear I have to go to a crafter-enchanter and have a permanent illusion placed on it that consumes the old gear I want it to look like (which must be something I earned and wore so is class/type appropriate)?

    In-keeping with lore.  In-keeping with tenets.  No need for a toggle, because it is 'real'.  You can still use /inspect if you, for some reason, *must* be able to tell exactly what the in-game name of the item I am wearing is.


    This post was edited by disposalist at November 13, 2019 3:11 AM PST
    • 139 posts
    November 13, 2019 3:45 AM PST

    I had a similar thought but crafting to change an item's appearance is no different from a transmog, which ruins the idea you can tell what someone is wearing and achieved by looking at them

    • 1584 posts
    November 13, 2019 3:56 AM PST

    The part i dont understand is why are people so worried by what others can see, in my opinion if i had my character looked the way i like it, and went to another computer that so happened to be playing pantheon and noticed he had the filter on it would do nothing to me, i simply wouldn't even care, how and why are you so determined and focused saying this toggle is a bad thing, its like finding a filter that disables shadows, or picking a lower resolution, becuase my pc is out of date and i need to run a lower preformance to run a higher fps, but your like if your not running XXXX x XXXX and disabled shadows your killing my immersion becuase those shadows should be appearing  that i cant see on your pc from 1000 miles away from me so i had no idea until you told me you disabled them.  Let's be prefectly honest you wouldn't, and again why would you, your entire arguement foundation is so weak imo that i don't even understand how this topic got this far you can wear cosmetic gear in my agrument which is the win your looking for in the midst of it all, which the only part that actually truly matters, becuase the fact your trying to prove to me that you actually care if i can see it or not doesn't exsist, not in the long term anyway.

    Just be happy you can see yourself the way you want to be seen by you, the mere fact that no one even answered my question proves that you would hardly ever ask people if they have their filter on is proof enough to me you don't actually care if they do, why would you, it doesnt hurt you at all.  I'm not taking away your option to wear cosmetic gear, i don't even think that is a correct way of trying to deal with this subject.  If you think you trying to force (which btw you are even if you try to use it loosely) me into seeing cosmetic gear wihtout an option to see just adventure gear, than you are taking away something from me, when I'm trying to take nothing away from you.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at November 13, 2019 4:21 AM PST
    • 1315 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:13 AM PST

    Doford said:

    I had a similar thought but crafting to change an item's appearance is no different from a transmog, which ruins the idea you can tell what someone is wearing and achieved by looking at them

    I think crafting is actually a good solution to this debate.

    If someone could bring two items of the same slot and base type (plate helms, vs leather breastplate, vs chain gloves) to a crafter of that base type and skill, then that crafter could transfer the stats from one item to another.

    Effectively you would be destroying two items to create a new one with the stats of one and the appearance of another.

    Why this is good:

    1)      Removes 2 tradeable items from the economy and replaces it with a soulbound item, thereby helping keep the value of items stable.

    2)      The player will have needed to legitimately earn both items (already soulbound items will need to be combined via some form of dual player crafting window)

    3)      Items will maintain their item type so no cloth warriors or plate rogues.

    4)      The art will not be incongruent with the rest of the world as it already drops just likely at a lower power level.

    5)      Really hard to get and attractive items with crappy stats will see a great deal more usage and appreciation.  (This in turn will give players reasons to mentor down and complete level restricted challenges even at max level)

    Cons:

    1)      Purest QQs? Not really a con to me.

    2)      I guess on PVP servers there could be an advantage to level 5 gear with epic stats but meh, PVP is about excitement and sometimes finding a stick of dynamite in a jack in the box is fun and Pantheon is about 0.5% about PVP.

    • 2756 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:23 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    I part i dont understand is why are people so worried by what others can see

    Understood. But people *do* care - that is clear no?  Not so much 'worried' but clearly it matters.

    It's good you realise you don't understand that feeling.  So the next step is to realise that it is still a valid opinion, even though you don't share it?

    Riahuf22 said:

    in my opinion if i had my character looked the way i like it, and went to another computer that so happened to be playing pantheon and noticed he had the filter on it would do nothing to me, i simply wouldn't even care, how and why are you so determined and focused saying this toggle is a bad thing

    Yes, that's your opinion and I understand and respect it.  Why are you asking again why and how we think the toggle is a bad thing?  I really don't think the arguments are unclear or unreasonable, the feelings simply aren't shared by you.

    The fact is, the toggle stops people having control over what they look like to others and that is the important part of what they want from appearance slots.  I may well only ever play in first person, but I still care what my character looks like.  I might not care at all what it looks like to me, but I care what it looks like to others.  That's it.  You don't agree with that feeling, but that doesn't make it invalid, untrue or unreasonable.

    Riahuf22 said:

    its like finding a filter that disables shadows, or picking a lower resolution, becuase my pc is out of date and i need to run a lower preformance to run a higher fps, but your like if your not running XXXX x XXXX and disabled shadows your killing my immersion becuase those shadows should be appearing  that i cant see on your pc 1000 miles away from me so i had no idea until you told me you disabled them.

    Doesn't change appearance any more than a different time of day or squinting your eyes.  If I thought everyone had systems *so bad* that you could barely tell one item from another, I might not bother putting effort into my appearance, true, but then that breaks everything for the prestige/purist point of view too.

    It's not a close enough scenario in a way to be relevant.

    More pertinent would be people choosing to toggle off their helmet appearance though for some reason that seems to be ok to some, but cosmetics are not...

    Riahuf22 said:

    Let's be prefectly honest you wouldn't, and again why would you, your entire arguement foundation is so weak imo that i don't even understand how this topic got this far you can wear cosmetic gear in my agrument which is the win your looking for in the midst of it all, which the only part that actually truly matters, becuase the fact your trying to prove to me that you actually care if i can see it or not doesn't exsist, not in the long term anyway.

    Yes, it does. I'm being perfectly honest.  If they add appearance slots and make it toggle-able, I won't use it because it renders it near worthless and splits the community in a weird unimmersive way.  In the short term, the mid term and the long term.

    Riahuf22 said:

    Just be happy you can see yourself the way you want to be seen by you, the mere fact that no one even answered my question...

    What?  I don't know how many different times and ways I and others have answered all your points but it's a lot

    Riahuf22 said:

    ...proves that you would hardly ever ask people if they have their filter on is proof enough to me you don't actually care if they do, why would you, it doesnt hurt you at all.  I'm not taking away your option to wear cosmetic gear, i don't even think that is a correct way of trying to deal with this subject.  If you think you trying to force (which btw you are even if you try to use it loosely) me into seeing cosmetic gear wihtout an option to see just adventure gear, than you are taking away something from me, when I'm trying to take nothing away from you.

    Again. Answered already.  Many times.  A toggle 100% satisfies you and breaks the whole system for me, never mind the weirdness of half players seeing others differently.

    I can see many situations where confusion would occur and people would be asking "is your filter on?" or "is that cosmetic gear?" or "what are you talking about? I don't see that?" or having to regularly toggle filters on and off to make sense of what they are seeing and hearing from others.

    The toggle is the 'forced' non-solution.  It forces me to be seen as others want.  It forces me to maintain both my appearance look and my 'real' look because I don't know what people are seeing.  In the end, it forces me to not use the system, because it's pointless with a toggle.

    An /inspect function would fix it without forcing either side.  A permanent illusion transmog would fix it because the look of the item would be as real as any other in-game, lore-based illusion.  A crafting system that allowed armor to be dyed or etched or accessorised would probably be enough for me.  A much simpler and easy to develop system is the wardrobe system I suggest, though without a toggle of course.


    This post was edited by disposalist at November 13, 2019 4:30 AM PST
    • 1584 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:24 AM PST

    thats still just transmoging at the end of the day, and transmogging has pros to and they are the same as mentioned above along with the cons and most of said no transmog please, why would this is veiwed any differently just becuase it takes a crafter to do it.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at November 13, 2019 4:26 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:32 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    What if I want to show my face? I take off my helmet, right? Oh, goody, I don't have to because there's a "don't show helmet" option.  But that's not 'real'!  Maybe that appearance override shouldn't be possible, or maybe we should have another toggle so that others *can* see people's helmets even if they toggle them off...  and cloaks, of course, because that seems to be another common appearance toggle...  Sometimes shoulders too...  That must all be 'wrong' or need a third-person toggle?

    Excellent point.  Giving players a toggle that allows them to disable /hidehelm is pretty much the same thing.  If you apply the various arguments made on this thread to that, it sounds like this, to me:  "You shouldn't be able to force me to see something that I don't want to see!  It is my right to see the helmet that you are actually wearing!  Everybody wins in this situation!  People who care about how their character appears can have it toggled on.  For everybody else who cares about earned accomplishments, we get to see the world for how it really is.  Choices should be meaningful!  If you want to show your face you should not benefit from stats derived from a helmet.  The identity of a character is based on the choices they make.  Do you care about surviving in a world that is trying to kill you, or not looking awful?  Reputation matters!  Seriously ... it's very important to me that I have a way to disable /hidehelm from all others.  Things would get way too ridiculous, way too fast.  The world would be overrun by teardrop tattoos, blinged out grills, septum piercings, gauged ear lobes, mohawks, the whole nine yards!  Let's not destroy Pantheon with the garbage that has been ruining mainstream for the last decade!"


    This post was edited by oneADseven at November 13, 2019 4:37 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:34 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    thats still just transmoging at the end of the day, and transmogging has pros to and they are the same as mentioned above along with the cons and most of said no transmog please, why would this is veiwed any differently just becuase it takes a crafter to do it.

    It's different because a lot of people are saying appearance slots are somehow not reflecting 'reality', but when has a role-playing game ever been about reality?  A crafting-based solution would be as real as any other in-game 'reality'.  It might satisfy the objections of some.

    You appear to be a 'prestige' guy and can't enjoy showing off your acquisitions unless you can compare them at a glance with everyone else you see?  Is that right?  /inspect wouldn't be enough?

    I am seriously trying to get to the crux of your opinion.  It's not 'realism' because a crafter based transmog would be as real as anything else.

    What is it about being able to recognise at a glance the name of the item someone else is wearing that is essential to you?


    This post was edited by disposalist at November 13, 2019 4:36 AM PST
    • 1584 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:37 AM PST

    You feel like im going completely against Cosmetic gear when I'm finding a compromise to have both cosmetic and adventure gear exsist, your being the extremist here, not me you want it to where  regardless of what I think I should be able to see your cosmetic gear if you put it on with no regards of what i think, not me.  In my opinion I'm fine with it for as long i can turn it off, I'm the one saying there is a compromise into realizing there is a world where both can co exsist techincally in harmony, the ones saying their shouldn't be a toggle and I have no choicevbut to see what you want me to see is the problem in this discussion, your not even giving another opinoin that could be a better fit in your eyes other than I want it all or nothing at all.  So don't come at me like I'm being part of the problem when it is me that is compromising and seeing a way for them both to exisst where you simply dont want them too.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at November 13, 2019 4:42 AM PST
    • 1315 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:38 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    thats still just transmoging at the end of the day, and transmogging has pros to and they are the same as mentioned above along with the cons and most of said no transmog please, why would this is veiwed any differently just becuase it takes a crafter to do it.

    Then I guess I am in the “Yes to item destroying transmog and dies, no to silly skins, no to appearance toggle options (my image is my own and I want to control it)“.

    This might be another case of a server setting that selectively turned on or off.  PVP and the EQ emulator server could have it turned off an the RP servers could have it turned on and the balance of servers will depend on what the greater population actually wants.

    • 1584 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:51 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    thats still just transmoging at the end of the day, and transmogging has pros to and they are the same as mentioned above along with the cons and most of said no transmog please, why would this is veiwed any differently just becuase it takes a crafter to do it.

    It's different because a lot of people are saying appearance slots are somehow not reflecting 'reality', but when has a role-playing game ever been about reality?  A crafting-based solution would be as real as any other in-game 'reality'.  It might satisfy the objections of some.

    You appear to be a 'prestige' guy and can't enjoy showing off your acquisitions unless you can compare them at a glance with everyone else you see?  Is that right?  /inspect wouldn't be enough?

    I am seriously trying to get to the crux of your opinion.  It's not 'realism' because a crafter based transmog would be as real as anything else.

    What is it about being able to recognise at a glance the name of the item someone else is wearing that is essential to you?

    It's simply i want an item to look the way its suppose to, while giving the freedom to the people that want to see cosmetic gear, my option satisifies honestly both parties your just being stubborn, my Tunic of the Snakepit should look exactly like the Tunic of the snakepit with no exceptions unless you toggle on your cosmetic filter to make it look the way you want, exceot to the people that have it toggled off.  And the fact your getting what you want but are so determined to try to force me into seeing what i dont want is the real problem.