stellarmind said:disposalist said:TL;DR: -
1) Cosmetics don't have to be inappriopriate. They can be formed from gear you have earned and worn.
2) To a majority of people (and I believe it is a majority) that would like subtle cosmetics, it matters what you look like *to others* at least as much as to yourself, probably more. If others can toggle it off, it makes if largely pointless.
3) If half players are seeing something different to the other half every time they look at a player's character, it has great potential to be unimmersive, confusing and just plain weird.
If that isn't understandable then *shrug* I can't explain it any better.
i don't think having the toggle off is pointless. suppose you and i were rping, we could both toggle it on and hide other players such as teh male string bikini warrior with a santa hat and pizza box shield(that would break in immersion). it works both ways.
in essence, i can see what i want to see and others can show what they want to show.
that's a great compromise. if not, i end up with 2 extreme spectrums of having a complete volcanic eruption of unimmersive appeareances or straight up black coffee.
i'm of the ladder(not that i can't appreciate milk and sugar time to time) and if we are rping i'd equip the gear to give me the appeareance i desire for the rp session.
good rpers are the characters. great rpers can seperate from their characters and the stage is just a giant prop that teh actors make real.
If RPing is seperate to the main game like that, you can just change gear, you don't need appearance slots. The toggle is redundant.
And I don't want non-adventuring gear, I just to alter how adventuring gear looks.
And I don't RP like it's a special occasion, I portray a character all the time.
disposalist said:If RPing is seperate to the main game like that, you can just change gear, you don't need appearance slots. The toggle is redundant.
And I don't want non-adventuring gear, I just to alter how adventuring gear looks.
And I don't RP like it's a special occasion, I portray a character all the time.
to address first point:
taking your gritty warrior for example, suppose you wanted to go to a hazardous area to rp with your level 5 warrior gear. this is where you want to appeareance slot so you don't die because your gear was ill suited for a level 50 zone.
2nd and 3rd points combined:
it's really precarious XD i would say that you are a mindful of appeareance, but not everyone is going to keep immersion of others in mind. it's not like i should force them to conform to my standards either. it gives enough independence for some players that just want to look like chip and dale santa without imposing on others that don't want to see that nonsense.
stellarmind said:disposalist said:If RPing is seperate to the main game like that, you can just change gear, you don't need appearance slots. The toggle is redundant.
And I don't want non-adventuring gear, I just to alter how adventuring gear looks.
And I don't RP like it's a special occasion, I portray a character all the time.
it's really precarious XD i would say that you are a mindful of appeareance, but not everyone is going to keep immersion of others in mind. it's not like i should force them to conform to my standards either. it gives enough independence for some players that just want to look like chip and dale santa without imposing on others that don't want to see that nonsense.
taking your gritty warrior for example, suppose you wanted to go to a hazardous area to rp with your level 5 warrior gear. this is where you want to appeareance slot so you don't die because your gear was ill suited for the environment.
No one wants to look like Chip and Dale Santa. VR have said not even cosmetic gear would be like that (if there is any).
No, I don't want to have to change/swap into old gear to get a look I want, never mind be vulnerable in it. I wouldn't bother - I'm not that obsessed honestly. Anyway it's the gear I *adventure* in that I want to look good.
But *if* they *do* have appearance slots then a toggle makes it pointless because it's what *others* see me like that bothers me (and I'm sure that's what most others that want it think too) and I would have no control. Everyone could choose to ignore my appearance gear and I have no idea what they see when they look at me, so it's almost pointless. I wouldn't bother. I would just try and get high level gear I don't dislike too much.
As I've said before, if there's no cosmetics or wardrobe or appearance slots or whatever at all it's not the end of the world to me, but if there *is* then a toggle makes it largely pointless and quite confusing.
There's only so many ways I can say it. I'm going to stop trying. I think it's clear. Some people don't understand. Some people do but disagree. Some people do and agree. It's all fine, I suppose ;^)
At the end of the day, I Trust In Pantheon (TM)
disposalist said:No one wants to look like Chip and Dale Santa. VR have said not even cosmetic gear would be like that (if there is any).
No, I don't want to have to change/swap into old gear to get a look I want, never mind be vulnerable in it. I wouldn't bother - I'm not that obsessed honestly. Anyway it's the gear I *adventure* in that I want to look good.
But *if* they *do* have appearance slots then a toggle makes it pointless because it's what *others* see me like that bothers me (and I'm sure that's what most others that want it think too) and I would have no control. Everyone could choose to ignore my appearance gear and I have no idea what they see when they look at me, so it's almost pointless. I wouldn't bother. I would just try and get high level gear I don't dislike too much.
As I've said before, if there's no cosmetics or wardrobe or appearance slots or whatever at all it's not the end of the world to me, but if there *is* then a toggle makes it largely pointless and quite confusing.
There's only so many ways I can say it. I'm going to stop trying. I think it's clear. Some people don't understand. Some people do but disagree. Some people do and agree. It's all fine, I suppose ;^)
At the end of the day, I Trust In Pantheon (TM)
i'm confused that you are confused? the point of toggle is a compromise between players having gear appeareance customization and purist who want to see teh armour as intended?
you do have control over the character appearance armour under a toggle system though. it's a matter if other players choose to see how you want to represent yourself?
hell if i was a predator, i'd want my prey to see me as a rock XD it's not like i can force the prey to see me as a rock lol. that would be broken af >.<
stellarmind said:i'm confused that you are confused? the point of toggle is a compromise between players having gear appeareance customization and purist who want to see teh armour as intended?
It's not a compromise. It gives the purists exactly what they want - they always see base gear - but those wanting to control how they are seen have no control at all. Control is given to others.
A compromise would be having sensible appearance slot gear (ie. only stuff you've earned and worn before), but letting purists use /inspect on whoever they want. Then both get what they want. Then it is a compromise.
stellarmind said:you do have control over the character appearance armour under a toggle system though. it's a matter if other players choose to see how you want to represent yourself?
Yes it matters. I don't want appearance slots so I can have *some* people see how I want to be seen and *some* not, maybe *all* not. If I have to worry about how I look in my base gear because half the players see that base gear, then there is no point in the appearance slots.
stellarmind said:hell if i was a predator, i'd want my prey to see me as a rock XD it's not like i can force the prey to see me as a rock lol. that would be broken af >.<
People keep making these kind of comments, but that's irrelevant since no one wants appearance gear to be outlandish or over-the-top or anything you haven't earned or worn before. I certainly don't and VR have said it won't be. (also, we aren't talking about PvP which changes the whole matter completely).
Appearance slots are for people to control how they are seen. A toggle takes that control away.
I was going to stop trying explaining... I have a problem X^/
disposalist said:But *if* they *do* have appearance slots then a toggle makes it pointless because it's what *others* see me like that bothers me (and I'm sure that's what most others that want it think too) and I would have no control. Everyone could choose to ignore my appearance gear and I have no idea what they see when they look at me, so it's almost pointless. I wouldn't bother. I would just try and get high level gear I don't dislike too much.
As I've said before, if there's no cosmetics or wardrobe or appearance slots or whatever at all it's not the end of the world to me, but if there *is* then a toggle makes it largely pointless and quite confusing.
I don't really get that argument though, the desire to supercede or impose ones will over others. Why so much worry over what others see? Why don't you wear what you want for you?
Those who don't like RP/False appearance gear see you as the best possible you in their eyes, disrupting no part of their play (and likely drawing less/no ire for having to look at whatever odd choices people might make). Those who partake in dress-up likewise see you as the best possible you that you want to put forward.
I'd rather VR have some leeway with the types and styles of armor they add to the game at release or a couple years down the road rather than some hard line of fully covered outfits, no kilts/subligar/revealing armors or outfits ever, just let me toggle it off.
Worry about yourself, not what others see/think.
Iksar said:disposalist said:But *if* they *do* have appearance slots then a toggle makes it pointless because it's what *others* see me like that bothers me (and I'm sure that's what most others that want it think too) and I would have no control. Everyone could choose to ignore my appearance gear and I have no idea what they see when they look at me, so it's almost pointless. I wouldn't bother. I would just try and get high level gear I don't dislike too much.
As I've said before, if there's no cosmetics or wardrobe or appearance slots or whatever at all it's not the end of the world to me, but if there *is* then a toggle makes it largely pointless and quite confusing.
I don't really get that argument though, the desire to supercede or impose ones will over others. Why so much worry over what others see? Why don't you wear what you want for you?
Those who don't like RP/False appearance gear see you as the best possible you in their eyes, disrupting no part of their play (and likely drawing less/no ire for having to look at whatever odd choices people might make). Those who partake in dress-up likewise see you as the best possible you that you want to put forward.
I'd rather VR have some leeway with the types and styles of armor they add to the game at release or a couple years down the road rather than some hard line of fully covered outfits, no kilts/subligar/revealing armors or outfits ever, just let me toggle it off.
Worry about yourself, not what others see/think.
What's the point in being in a massively multiplayer game and not caring what others think?
We have a ton of character creation options and people want that so clearly people care quite a lot about what they look like.
Ok, maybe still some are only really doing it to please themselves, but I guarantee you that most care about how they look to others at least as much as to themselves.
This, of course, extends to gear and if the devs are going to give the option to have appearance gear, then the toggle ruins it for the reasons I've given many times.
People *do* care how they are seen by others. They care how they are understood when they talk. They care how their play skills are received and appreciated. People care what others think of them and what their characters look like is an extention of that.
Sure, some people only play to please themselves. That is clear. But in a massively multi-player game where role-playing is front and center, is it really surprising that people care what they look like to others? Isn't *not* caring the more unusual concept in such a game?
Also those that want 'real' gear to be forced to be seen do clearly care what is seen by others. They want to force everyone to be the show-offs they want to be. I don't want to stop them showing off their prestige gear, I just want appearance slots to work in a worthwhile manner or I won't bother using them.
I can't stop!... I better go to bed...
disposalist said:What's the point in being in a massively multiplayer game and not caring what others think?
We have a ton of character creation options and people want that so clearly people care quite a lot about what they look like.
Ok, maybe still some are only really doing it to please themselves, but I guarantee you that most care about how they look to others at least as much as to themselves.
This, of course, extends to gear and if the devs are going to give the option to have appearance gear, then the toggle ruins it for the reasons I've given many times.
People *do* care how they are seen by others. They care how they are understood when they talk. They care how their play skills are received and appreciated. People care what others think of them and what their characters look like is an extention of that.
Sure, some people only play to please themselves. That is clear. But in a massively multi-player game where role-playing is front and center, is it really surprising that people care what they look like to others? Isn't *not* caring the more unusual concept in such a game?
Also those that want 'real' gear to be forced to be seen do clearly care what is seen by others. They want to force everyone to be the show-offs they want to be. I don't want to stop them showing off their prestige gear, I just want appearance slots to work in a worthwhile manner or I won't bother using them.
I can't stop!... I better go to bed...
So we come back to: those who care how they look to others will participate with appearance options and see others the same way, those who don't want to participate in that world of self-expression/fashion will toggle it off and see the reality of the world. Some would like to be able to toggle off the equivalent of "snapchat filters" and see players as they are.
It seems win/win. I support people being able to express themselves with their fashion in-game but not to the extent I am forced to participate in their self-image.
It's not a win/win to me. If people can turn off my self expression, it diminishes the value of it. The number of EQ purists leads me to believe that it would be heavily diminished.
I think a toggle is actually the worst case scenario. Fundamental aspects of how your avatar is presented should not vary wildly from client to client. Toning down some graphics settings on toaster PCs, sure. Not entirely changing your character's model, though.
Not wanting to "participate" in others' self expression is ridiculous. It's an RPG. Literally every action taken between players is a form of self expression.
Edit: Some nerd is going to screech at me about banana suits or something else, so I'll reiterate that I want appearance gear to be heavily restricted to armor/weapon types just as I did before, and for all of said gear to come from gameplay. No RMT shops, no weird looking event items, no naked characters with their magnum dongs hanging out. Just nice, matching suits of armor and timeless epic weapons.
It's a little psycho that so many people think that they should be able to control how my character looks. Why should you be able to see all my stats and equipment. What kind of peep show freaks are you?
I understand people not wanting to see terribly out of realm outfits, clown suits, giant sized weapons, etc. The solution is simply not to make that stuff in the game in the first place. Problem solved.
Unless you are familiar with a specific sword, why should you recognize exactly what sword I am carrying. Most swords look alike the untrained eye. If I am wearing a cloth tabard over my gear, you shouldn't be able to see that aI am wearing a +5 breastplate of stickiness.
There is no need for people to see exactly what I am wearing. If they want to know, they can ask. If I don't want them to see my +12 sword of floppiness, why do they need to see it?
Sounds like the game is full of sick voyeurs.
Let me look the way I want. If the developers don't want me in clown outfits, don't put them in the game.
Liav said:It's not a win/win to me. If people can turn off my self expression, it diminishes the value of it. The number of EQ purists leads me to believe that it would be heavily diminished.
I think a toggle is actually the worst case scenario. Fundamental aspects of how your avatar is presented should not vary wildly from client to client. Toning down some graphics settings on toaster PCs, sure. Not entirely changing your character's model, though.
Not wanting to "participate" in others' self expression is ridiculous. It's an RPG. Literally every action taken between players is a form of self expression.
Edit: Some nerd is going to screech at me about banana suits or something else, so I'll reiterate that I want appearance gear to be heavily restricted to armor/weapon types just as I did before, and for all of said gear to come from gameplay. No RMT shops, no weird looking event items, no naked characters with their magnum dongs hanging out. Just nice, matching suits of armor and timeless epic weapons.
I dont Often agree with Liav, but he's spot on here. You don't get to control how I choose to look. You don't get to choose my hairstyle, skin color, gender, height, anything. You should see me as I choose to be.
I'm in full agreement with Liav and Beefcake! As an aside ... if other players get to control how they view my character then I demand to see all characters naked at all times! I want a toggle that turns all armor off, for everybody. Why should I be forced to see what other people are wearing? Why should I be forced to participate in their self-image? All-natural or nothing! I'd like to see toggles for names/titles/character models as well. I just want to see a big blob of sameness as it would help ensure that my experience is not tainted by other real players. I don't want to participate in their delusions of grandeur or attempts at self-expression. Not in my world!!!
How absurd someone might want to play in and see the world and all within it as they actually are and not with an imaginary filter applied! Being able to see what others are equipped with from mere sight? Outrageous I say! Why, they shouldn't be able to know what I am wearing at all unless I tell them!
Why are people trying to micromanage a feature to the point you are trying to force people into seeing you the way they want to if they don't want to see it? You have no right to amke me see you any other way than how i want to see you, becuase that is my right. Your right is having you being able to see you as you want to be seen. So how about you realize I'm letting you have your right to do that, and now you give me my right or freedom to decide not if i want to or not.
Your say it diminishes a feature when 95% of the time you won't even care or know if someone has it off, or even care if they do. So, stop micro managing, or forcing people to do things they don't want to do, especially when we aren't forcing you to do anything that renders you when it comes to cosmetic gear.
Why are people trying so hard to make others do something we dont want to do, we aren't stopping you from putting on the gear or even saying it's a bad idea, some of us simply just dont want to see it, we want to see the actual gear your wearing and I see nothing wrong with this, if anything cosmetic gear is fake, but I'm fine with it becuase i know a ton of people like that sort of thing, but for you than to flip it and say i SHOULD NOT be able to toggle it off seems unfair to the people that don't want to see it.
Iksar said:How absurd someone might want to play in and see the world and all within it as they actually are and not with an imaginary filter applied! Being able to see what others are equipped with from mere sight? Outrageous I say! Why, they shouldn't be able to know what I am wearing at all unless I tell them!
Should the filter be imaginary, though? The entire point behind it is to alter visual perception. It's only imaginary when players can toggle it on/off. I don't see how an imaginary filter could possibly be more emphasized than having a scenario where two players are standing next to each other, looking at the same character, but see two drastically different appearances. The idea that this imaginary layer exists in the first place is where the absurdity lies. If VR wanted to justify all of this with lore they could base the entire concept of "appearance slots" around illusions/enchantments. It's not that farfetched in a fantasy world. The existence of the toggle and any communication related to it are absolutely farfetched in the context of the virtual world ... but alas, it is a compromise after all, and neither side is going to be fully happy. It is what it is.
Riahuf22 said:Why are people trying to micromanage a feature to the point you are trying to force people into seeing you the way they want to if they don't want to see it? You have no right to amke me see you any other way than how i want to see you, becuase that is my right. Your right is having you being able to see you as you want to be seen. So how about you realize I'm letting you have your right to do that, and now you give me my right or freedom to decide not if i want to or not.
If someone wants to force (I use this term loosely, but am going for the same context that you are implying) you to stare at their naked body what are you going to do about it? You could always turn the other way, I suppose, but what is this stuff you are going on about with implied freedoms and rights? If I want my character to appear naked then that is what you will see. You might not like it, and you may not want to see my character in that light, but there is no bill of rights that I am aware of in Terminus that suggests that players can alter how other people look just because they feel like it. Is there going to be some sort of "non-naked-toggle" that players can activate when they see a naked person in order to enforce these rights?
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:Why are people trying to micromanage a feature to the point you are trying to force people into seeing you the way they want to if they don't want to see it? You have no right to amke me see you any other way than how i want to see you, becuase that is my right. Your right is having you being able to see you as you want to be seen. So how about you realize I'm letting you have your right to do that, and now you give me my right or freedom to decide not if i want to or not.
If someone wants to force (I use this term loosely, but am going for the same context that you are implying) you to stare at their naked body what are you going to do about it? You could always turn the other way, I suppose, but what is this stuff you are going on about with implied freedoms and rights? If I want my character to appear naked then that is what you will see. You might not like it, and you may not want to see my character in that light, but there is no bill of rights that I am aware of in Terminus that suggests that players can alter how other people look just because they feel like it. Is there going to be some sort of "non-naked-toggle" that players can activate when they see a naked person in order to enforce these rights?
Well sense i'm sure when you have no armor on your character, kind of like every game when you first create a character you have something covering your body, so i don't need an option to unsee a naked body, the creators will alrdy taken care of that. and again as ive stated we aren't stopping people from wearing cosmetic gear, so why are you trying to stop us from seeing you adventure gear. especially when 95% of the time you wouldn't know, what are you going to do walk across terminus and ask everyone you see if they have it on, or would you stop by the time you found your first outpost? how about when you can answer this than i'll tell you how much you'll actually care if i have mine turned on or not.
Those questions were obviously rhetorical but the thing that sticks out to me from this thread is ... Pantheon is supposed to be a deeply social game that emphasizes shared experiences. I don't understand why people feel it's so important to try and quarantine themselves from the appearance of others. I get that a lot of games have gone bonkers with their cosmetic fluff but there is no reason that VR couldn't avoid those same pitfalls. After all ... we are expecting them to avoid making plenty of other mistakes/traps that have plagued modern MMO's. This one seems like a layup.
oneADseven said:Should the filter be imaginary, though? The entire point behind it is to alter visual perception. It's only imaginary when players can toggle it on/off. I don't see how an imaginary filter could possibly be more emphasized than having a scenario where two players are standing next to each other, looking at the same character, but see two drastically different appearances. The idea that this imaginary layer exists in the first place is where the absurdity lies. If VR wanted to justify all of this with lore they could base the entire concept of "appearance slots" around illusions/enchantments. It's not that farfetched in a fantasy world. The existence of the toggle and any communication related to it are absolutely farfetched in the context of the virtual world ... but alas, it is a compromise after all, and neither side is going to be fully happy. It is what it is.
Is the appearance gear what the character is actually wearing; are they fighting with those appearance weapons? No, so it sounds like appearance gear is imaginary to me. If they were illusions then surely I can just use truesight (toggle) to see through them.
How about becuase we simply just want to see adventure gear and not cosmetic gear, simply becuase it cosmetic gear, and we dont need or want another reason, so how about you enjoy watching players the way you want to and have someone like me enjoy watching players i want to view them as it doesn't hurt you at all, which is my biggest point, and the mere fact that is escaping you, is what makes it so confusing when you wouldn't even know unless i told you.
Zorkon said:Earned Armor
I think appearance should be a factor in how players outfit themselves. It could be a good deterrent to min maxing if every slot having BIS made the player look like a circus clown.
Is it really worth fighting over that one extra AC if your helm in going to look like a pineapple?
My examples are extreem to get my point across, but choices should matter shouldn't they?
Yes, that’s how I see it too. I think choices should matter. I’d like to see consequences return to mmorpg’s again. :)
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels
Riahuf22 said:How about becuase we simply just want to see adventure gear and not cosmetic gear, simply becuase it cosmetic gear, and we dont need or want another reason, so how about you enjoy watching players the way you want to and have someone like me enjoy watching players i want to view them as it doesn't hurt you at all, which is my biggest point, and the mere fact that is escaping you, is what makes it so confusing when you wouldn't even know unless i told you.
Reputation is supposed to matter in this game. It certainly wouldn't hurt my feelings that my character appears to be wearing a hodge-podge set of misfit gear rather than the synchronized set I put together for maximum viewing pleasure, but it does detract from the idea that character appearance will play a major role in earned accomplishments. Do you know what would seem like a fun compromise for me? Tie the toggle to perception. Appearance slots override the standard slot underneath but if a character has a perception skill equal to my level then they can investigate me and temporarily see past the illusion. Wishful thinking, I'm sure, but it makes a lot more sense than having some sort of imaginary toggle.
I'm sure at end game gear is probably going to look pretty good, maybe a bit mis matching to a point possibly but look fairly awesome at the same time, and again like I've been saying I have no problem with cosmetic gear, i just don't want to see it myself but understand people like it, but even though you like it and want to see yourself wear it doesn't mean i should have to see it if i dont want to, and i think that should be respected and not challenged.