I could care less about about prestige gear.
Its my character. I don't care if people ooh and ahh that they can see my latest accomplishments.
Just let me be who I am and look how I want.
i care about my accomplishments, not what others think about them.
Let people care about how I play with them, not how I look.
The irony is that prestigious gear can be better realized with appearance slots intact. Unless, of course, we want to consider it an "accomplishment" that a player finds themselves in the perfect storm of events where equipping a matching set of armor is also fully functional and optimized for the situation they are in. I remember that situation in EQOA. It was called being in town. Sitting in town doing nothing was the perfect time to show off your matching set of gear because stats meant nothing in those moments. As soon as you left town ... as soon as you or others were relying on your health/mana pool and/or stats, most of those sets lost all viability. Earning a full set of matching gear is supposed to be an accomplishment in and of itself in Pantheon. Appearance slots are a quality of life improvement for players and a stimulus package to content relevance and the player-driven economy.
When I think about this question ... "Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons?"
The way I read this, they are the exact same thing, at least according to what was officially communicated back in February of 2017. The FAQ was updated with the following:
4.8 What kind of equipment visualization can we expect to see on characters?
"The game world will contain thousands if not tens of thousands of items. That said, there can never be a 1:1 ratio between what you are specifically wearing and how you appear to other players. What you’re wearing does show off what you’ve accomplished, how high level you are, and what adventures you have undertaken to inspire others. Cosmetic gear will also be available, with players selecting how they want to view your character by toggling between adventure and cosmetic."
Immediately afterward, there was a post on the forum asking for confirmation on what that FAQ update meant, here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5400/question-about-the-new-faq/view/post_id/95188
There were several responses from VR, including:
Kilsin: "I am not sure what else you need my friend, it is pretty self-explanatory. You have the control, use a toggle to view normal gear on players or cosmetic gear, simple as that, everyone wins. That way people can use cosmetic items and enjoy looking unique and more to their liking but you can view them in normal gear without having to look at the cosmetic stuff."
Aradune: "I'm glad you guys like it -- putting the cosmetic toggle in the hands of the person looking, not the person wearing, seems to be the way to go. And the compromise came from people in the community -- much appreciated!"
So again ... back to the question: "Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons?"
I enjoy both, and plan on doing both in Pantheon, unless something has changed. If I want to be known for having completed a long ogre-specific quest timeline, I will equip the rewards I earned from such in the available appearance slots. This will allow other players to see my earned armor/weapons, as I wish them to be presented, even when I'm not in town. If someone wants to disable the appearance toggle, more power to them ... but they aren't going to see my "earned armor and weapons" in any way that resembles prestige or accomplishment -- they are going to see whatever random hodge-podge combination of weapons/armor that happens to fit the situation ... a situation that will likely change, consistently, due to the nature of how situational gear is supposed to work in this game.
Also from that same thread:
Aradune: "Cosmetic items still have to be earned, either a drop, a quest reward, or bought for in-game currency. Please de-couple cosmetic items with the need for a cash shop -- unnecessary."
Aradune: "I think we should probably add some clarification/additional info to the FAQ as this is such a volatile issue."
Already a lot has been said on this topic, here's my 2cents :
If gear is well designed, then having matching pieces will not be as necessary as it used to be in some games, because you will look matched easily as long as you have the option to change some color channels.
Beeing able to change the appearance of your gear as long as you earned it gives a long term viability to the game's early dungeons, early quests, early sets dropping. Should it have been a thing on EQ1 would I have farmed the ravenscale gear in my late days of it, because it just looked really cool but was hardly worth the effort back then.
It also helps having a healthy economy not focused only on the endgame gear (but might inflate prices of good looking items on the other hand).
Some won't like it, some will.
A lot of people are still making to the assumption that appearance/cosmetic/wardrobe/whatever system will mean outlandish, over-the-top, inappropriate stuff. It will not. VR have said in many different ways it will not. It is not what is being asked in this thread, either.
Kilsin's question is pretty careful and precise, but maybe he should have been more detailed. Maybe good context would have been "Given what we have previously said about cosmetic items being earned in game and just as appropriate as items you have already obtained and worn: Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons?"
Discuss what you like, of course, but if you're objecting to "being able to change your character's appearance" because you don't want giant glowing swords and knights in bikinis, you are basing your comment on something pretty much irrelevant.
The question simply is: Do you think everyone should be forced to show just exactly what they are wearing?
I would add there is an assumption that this somehow makes sure players are "known for their accomplishments" and that being able to change your character's appearance somehow stops that. I would say that isn't true, but who am I to question Kilsin? ;^)
oneADseven said:...
So again ... back to the question: "Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons?"
I enjoy both, and plan on doing both in Pantheon, unless something has changed. If I want to be known for having completed a long ogre-specific quest timeline, I will equip the rewards I earned from such in the available appearance slots. This will allow other players to see my earned armor/weapons, as I wish them to be presented, even when I'm not in town. If someone wants to disable the appearance toggle, more power to them ... but they aren't going to see my "earned armor and weapons" in any way that resembles prestige or accomplishment -- they are going to see whatever random hodge-podge combination of weapons/armor that happens to fit the situation ... a situation that will likely change, consistently, due to the nature of how situational gear is supposed to work in this game.
...
Good point about what you are currently wearing being unlikely to be your most prestigeous items, especially given the matching sets thing. If you really want someone to always reflect their accomplishments then appearance slots are essential.
I disagree with the toggle being good though. I can only see that being annoying and frustrating to those wanting to decide how others see them and confusing, unimmersive and weird when two halves of players are seeing different things.
I believe in an MMORPG persistence is important. How far could this toggle go? I only like skinny people, brown races or blonde women. Why stop at clothing? I just think it's a bit dishonest. Players should be able to be seen as how they want while still staying inside the art direction of the developers.
It's a hard no for me, everyone should be able to know what gear you have on just by looking at you, transmog/appearance gears kills that. It also kills the prestiege of having a full set of matching gear, and the awesome feeling of looking super cool and standing out from everyone else, even if im the level 20 noob looking at the lvl 50 maxed out character, it motivates me to reach higher goals in the game.
Sabot said: I just cant see why a toggle is a problem. Everyone wins. The people that want to look ridiculous can, the ones that want to dress up and look what they think "good" is can, and those that want to show what they are actually using can. And those that dont want to see anyone else's "creation" good or bad dont have to see it. You should not be able to force your fake appearance on me anymore that you can force vile or toxic chat. I have an ignore command for chat, the toggle is the same for dress up. The argument that everyone will be confused by commands like "follow the dwarf with the green helm" is just crazy. Tell them to follow Dariuz. That's the name over his head. Or tell em to follow the dwarf with the star over his head. Most every game has that feature now. If the only way you can enjoy the game is to force everyone else to see you as you want to be seen and not as you actually are... well I cant really say anything to help you with that. I just think it's a freedom thing.
The people that want to "look ridiculous" can't. VR have said that any appearance/cosmetics system won't do ridiculous stuff. It merely allows a player to use the look of an item previously earned and worn that they prefer. No need to conflate that stuff with this issue.
You don't want a fake appearance 'forced', but are happy to force others to be seen as they don't want to be. That's what a toggle does. They want to be seen how the appearance slot sets it. The toggle stops that.
As for using nameplates not appearances, if nameplates are that huge and readable at all times it will look more horrendous than any outlandish cosmetics would be.
It's a freedom thing, yes. A toggle removes that freedom to be seen how you'd wish when an /inspect function would work just as well for people that *must* have what is displayed exactly match what is actually worn for whatever reason.
To be clear, I'm no against having no wardrobe system. I'd rather that than waste time on it if there will be a toggle that just ignores it and makes it pointless and confusing.
EDIT: I'm spamming this thread. I'll bow out ;^)
jpedrote said:It's a hard no for me, everyone should be able to know what gear you have on just by looking at you, transmog/appearance gears kills that. It also kills the prestiege of having a full set of matching gear, and the awesome feeling of looking super cool and standing out from everyone else, even if im the level 20 noob looking at the lvl 50 maxed out character, it motivates me to reach higher goals in the game.
An /inspect command fixes it without making the wardrobe system pointless and confusing.
What if that level 50 character hates the look of the high level gear? He should have to look like that because you like it? He is *demotivated* by having to endure a look he dislikes or having to wear less effective but better looking equipment. But what he looks like should be about what pleases you?
EDIT: I'm spamming this thread. I'll bow out ;^)
I think there is room for two tiers of cosmetics, skins and color pallets.
Skins would be your classic physical model change. These changes are usually what most people object too as they can end up being silly or immersion breaking. By the same token certain groups of players will spend 100s of hours collecting them and therefor are a fairly good development time investment.
Color pallets on the other hand could be fairly inobtrusive. Each item would have its base 3d art that then has a list of selectable color combinations that can be applied to the base. Using a consumable die you could change from one color combination to another combination allowable. In this way there would be some customization without the risk of immersion breaking color combinations as they would not be one of the options.
From a development standpoint you would actually just have a matrix of color combinations for each 3d art and based on the dies used they item would just call a different base item. Different color renderings is a very simple task.
Skins could be opted out of by players who do not want to see crazy skins and may be mostly used in town by role players.
Color pallets would not be something that can be opted out of as you have linked your drop item to a different sub-item. In theory the color combination could be randomized when dropped an item drops and for that matter certain combinations may only be possible when dropped rather than when modified because fashion quest is real.
To each his own, but I feel that what the individual player may want is irrelevant, Transforming one piece of gear to look like another devalues gear overall and circumvents the rest of the communities assessment of your current status, Skill level ect. Which all goes to your reputation, your achievements, and while it may seem harmless to take a Epic Piece of gear and make it look like a level 1, its certainly not, especially on PVP servers. The most we need is the ability to adjust the color, not transmorphing.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
Doford said:I believe in an MMORPG persistence is important. How far could this toggle go? I only like skinny people, brown races or blonde women. Why stop at clothing? I just think it's a bit dishonest. Players should be able to be seen as how they want while still staying inside the art direction of the developers.
I agree with what you're saying here but at the end of the day, there are many "purists" who would have a conniption. Unfortunately, most of the "issues" discussed in this thread are imaginary. Santa hats and dental floss bikinis won't be in Pantheon. The idea that everybody would be running around with a glowing sword twice the size of their body has as much validity as the idea that everybody would be running around with a golden spoon three times the size of their body. Strawman after strawman after strawman after strawman. When we really get down to it ... a lot of people agree that accomplishments can and will be measured by appearance. This is something EQ players claim to miss. They want to be able to look at a piece of gear and know, immediately, what that piece of gear is. Certain gear should be iconic in nature and their graphic representations are a big part of their overall identity. Appearance slots do not remove that in any way. If you see someone wearing a rubicite breastplate ... you should know what it is and a relative idea of how difficult it was to acquire.
Again ... appearance slots do not take away from that, at all. They enhance the ability of players to show off their accomplishments. They extend the shelf-life of content relevance by making gear more than just a culmination of stats. For all intents and purposes ... "Fashion Quest" could end up being a form of horizontal progression ... and an emergent one, at that. Player-driven goals and ambitions facilitated by good game design. The idea that all of that could be compromised because people are worried about non-issues is pretty absurd. I don't think the toggle is perfect but it's close enough. If other people want to disable appearance slots across the board, more power to them. My understanding is that /inspect will be a feature that players can toggle off, anyway. I am a fan of that decision.
I have used cosmetic slots and transmog when it was allowed in other games I have played. I have to admit, if the game allows it I have spent extra time farming for gear just for its looks. But if it isn't allowed then maybe a dye system to help make your gear match would be nice. Either way I will play so in the end it isn't a deal breaker for me.
I do agree with Disposalist though, if you are going to add a toggle then don't waste your time. Adding the toggle just makes the entire system pointless in my opinion, either go whole hog or just drop the entire thing.
Iconic Itemization is my least favorite feature of Pantheon. Named recognizable items is a trap that leads to mudflation and one-upmanship. Lots of great art ends up getting wasted because they are not attached to best in slot items and content designers compete to make the new coolest item every expansion. Eventually you do end up with the 3-meter golden spoon as it either has the best stats for a class or it’s the “new cool idea” a content builder comes up with to make their area attractive to players.
I hear the desire to have “recognizable items” but if everything is recognizable then nothing is actually special. The recognizable items should be very few and far between and otherwise items are generic with maybe different color pallets.
Kittik said:Make appearance gear also be earned.
Depending on how they implement things, "appearance gear" and "cosmetic gear" don't even need to be a distinction. I was always under the impression that they would offer "appearance slots" -- in other words, any/all gear qualifies as something that you could put in an appearance slot. Any/All gear must be earned legitimately, in-game. I think it's a bad idea to use the terms "appearance gear" or "cosmetic gear" because of all the negative connotations that they bring from other games. All gear in Pantheon should be earned. No cash shop. If they want to create "roleplaying gear" such as tuxedos, dresses, or other types of formal garb that are not appropriate for adventuring ... they can do that, and disable those items from qualifying for "appearance slots." This ensures that you would never see people dungeon crawling in a tuxedo/dress. Any gear that wouldn't be considered "traditional adventuring gear" could have that same restriction. Roleplaying gear, harvesting gear, crafting gear, racial/festive gear, etc.
Unless if i am wrong, I'm sure this toggle works that if you want to see Cosmetic gear you see everyone's Cosmetic gear(unless they dont have one and than you see their adventure gear), but if you don't want to see Cosmetic Gear you only see Adventure gear regardless if they have cosmetic gear on. I think this is the way it should be, becuase for me i want to see what ypou are actually wearing, that feels way better to me, i dont want another player deciding for me how they want to be seen i want to see them the way they actually are, which comes from adventuring and earning your gear, which is what truly matters to me
Kalok said:If you mean like to transmog the armor, heck no. Your gear is you gear.If you mean like to put on "non-combat dress clothes for social situations", heck yeah. This is, after all, a social game.
Yeah, I agree. I’m all for people wearing/showing their gear or putting on social clothing for events, but I do not want gear to appear as something else that it’s not. If someone wants to wear a gown for a social event, then take off the plate and put the gown on.
Add: the more I read about transmogs, the worse it sounds. I don’t think that would a good thing to have in Pantheon.
I want a toggle that shows the "most recently acquired" title for every player rather than the one they choose to display. I want that toggle option because other players should not be able to choose for me what title they have displayed. I only want to see what they earned most recently because everything prior to that doesn't matter. /sarcasm_off
/sarcasm_back_on
I also want a toggle that shows me the default character appearance for each race. No customization whatsoever. If I see a female dwarf without a beard, that will ruin my immersion. There is no way that a female dwarf could ever earn the right to shave. That is just nonsense and the game should not allow others to force their heretic ways on my experience.
I honestly don't see a big deal is this 1AD7, you get to see "yourself" as you want to see you, so you win and everyone who has that feature on will see you that way as well, but i don't see how you see it as a lost when i see you for what you have on, how exactly does that affect you in anyway? So what i don't see it, that shouldn't even be the part that even matters, you can, it's honestly the best of both worlds, as for i don't like cosmetic gear, but I'm fine wiht Cosmetic gear if i have an option to simply not see it, as you should be fine with me not being able to see it, if you have the option to obtain it.