Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Sub-optimal

    • 85 posts
    November 10, 2019 2:24 PM PST
    I am sure that something has been posted here on this subject, I definitely haven't read every post here. So I am sorry to rehash, but I gotta vent...


    I was just on YouTube watching some great Pantheon content related to race/class combos, and what are "the best." It was a good video on a fun subject. I like min maxing sometimes, and I love playing against type other times. You can't do either without a bit of theory crafting.


    But then I go to the comments where I find the inevitable discussion about how Visionary Realms is strong arming me into playing a given race/class combo. So I responded, and then I decided I wanted to comment here also.


    "I miss the days when people were ok playing a suboptimal race/class combo. Chasing optimal has become a sickness.

    Knowing how to play your class is more important than that extra 2% edge you get from the optimal combo.

    And sure, if you are one of the top 1% of players and are competing to be the "best on the server," then yes that 2% matters. But by definition 99% of players are not in that situation. But come time to pick people for a raid, or your exp group, you exclude people who are suboptimal.

    I have seen a gnome warrior main tank in EQ. Dude knew how to play and was damn good. In fact gnome warrior is still fairly popular on P1999 right now.

    Meanwhile I have a buddy playing Classic WoW telling me he keeps getting excluded from raids because he wants to run a build that isn't the meta. People are running 40 man raids with 20 people, but can't take a dude with a suboptimal build.

    Some of the problems with MMOs these days are the people playing them."
    • 1247 posts
    November 10, 2019 2:37 PM PST

    OP I am in full agreement with you. It is one of the many, many things that are plagued with mainstream. WoW is (and always was) a total joke imo. I know I’ll take suboptimal anyday.  

    #communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels


    This post was edited by Syrif at November 10, 2019 3:03 PM PST
    • 291 posts
    November 10, 2019 2:48 PM PST

    We 100% agree with you and share your sentiments. Unfortunately the sickness is everywhere these days. We intend to play Archai bard/druid for a interesting flavorful challenge. :) Hoping that the difficulty actually makes people learn to communicate again (to disuade the cocky crunchers)... the way EQ did in the earlier days. Thats the only way this game could ever be fun. These people suck the fun out of EVERYTHING inevitably. If theres nothing done to root this behaviour out then the games doomed from the start in our opinion.

    • 47 posts
    November 10, 2019 2:58 PM PST

    This (race/class combo discussion) has been an "issue" in all MMOs as of late.  And I put "issue" in quote because people complain about this every time a game is going to be released and it never becomes an issue.  Ever.  If you can play the game and prove that you can play the game - you won't be left out.

    EDIT:  By the way - playing a "suboptimal" race/class combo is different than making up some arbitrary build.  I will expand on this.  Let's say your friend is playing Mage in WoW Classic.  And he decides to go 47/0/4 (full Arcane) and he only casts Arcane Missles.  His damage is going to be, overall, thousands and thousands less than someone playing "proper".  Of course a group is going to bring someone that is playing the "meta" build.  No huge group wants to purposly gimp themselves for the sake of someone playing their own way.  It's the unfortunate truth.


    This post was edited by Talint at November 10, 2019 3:12 PM PST
    • 1281 posts
    November 10, 2019 3:25 PM PST

    I'm good with playing a "sub-optimal" race/class combo too.

    • 1921 posts
    November 10, 2019 3:30 PM PST

    If this was an ARAC game like EQ2, I wouldn't care as much.  If the choice was visual, then it would make no difference and I would choose "whatever".
    As it's not... I am strongly encouraged to care.  I'm not going to voluntarily choose to make myself worse, when I'm playing for fun.  Fun, to me, in a Role Playing Game is playing my role as best I can.
    To voluntarily choose a race that not as good at performing a particular role seems illogical, to me (and those in my guild).

    Hopefully in the future, a better implementation of racial passives and actives is implemented, whereby through progeny, sacrifice, worship, or any similar mechanic, a particular character can gain access to a subset of all/some/many racial benefits.  That way, the racials can be whatever designers want, and players simply choose whatever is best for performing their role on that character, for that time/duration.

    • 68 posts
    November 10, 2019 3:40 PM PST

    I've been in many top raiding guilds and have never seen this happen. If someone actually did this why would you want to play with them?

    Your friends situation is completely different than an optimal race. I wouldnt bring someone with a shitty build into a raid either. No one wants to struggle because you have a special flower in the raid who wants to do his own thing.

    People generally want to get in and out as fast as possible and get to the next target.

    • 3852 posts
    November 10, 2019 4:07 PM PST

    If someone wants to be in the most difficult raids with the most selective raid guilds it is rather obvious that they had better give great care to their choice of race and build. 

    The rest of us can pretty well relax within reason. Though a healer or tank that is *so* subobtimal that they can't even do a reasonable job of healing or tanking shouldn't expect many repeat invitations. Ditto for a dps but it takes longer for a dps to demonstrate woeful incompetence.

    A bad player is almost always worse than a bad build. 

     

    • 47 posts
    November 10, 2019 4:49 PM PST

    "Optimal" race/class combos account for such a small amount of damage gain - and it's even more miniscul over a long fight.  I know comparing a game like this to WoW is not ideal - but check out bloodmallet.com.  Click on a class and pick the race.  The overall damage is so minor.  

    Let's just look at Warlock.  The "top" race for a destruction warlock is troll at 40,799 DPS.  The "bottom" race is nightborne 40,219 DPS.  You can view this on all of the races.   It's like 650 DPS absolute max for any race/class combo.  Someone can out play 650 DPS, pretty easily.  I can almost assure you it will not be as big of a difference as you are worried about.

     

    EDIT:  Couldn't do proper math.


    This post was edited by Talint at November 10, 2019 4:53 PM PST
    • 62 posts
    November 10, 2019 5:11 PM PST

    I'm okay with sub-optimal as well, with more concern on the player.  As long as someone isn't extremely deficient, then I don't see what the big deal is with clearing mobs or a dungeon a couple minutes slower.  This game isn't geared toward mowing down mobs and rushing to the next target/dungeon asap.  Community and grouping are supposed to be centric with strategy and exploration in play.  If someone cares more about numbers, then I would be moving on to the next group until I find some reasonable and/or like-minded people.


    This post was edited by Geoffrey at November 10, 2019 5:12 PM PST
    • 47 posts
    November 10, 2019 5:25 PM PST

    Going slower and stuggling are very different.  If you wipe multiple times on something you could have done once because someone is doing way to low of damage; that's a problem.  People in your group should not have to play so well that it counter-acts someone that wants to do something so sub-optimal.  That's just selfish.  But now we're talking about playing the class, not picking a race.

    • 1999 posts
    November 10, 2019 5:36 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    A bad player is almost always worse than a bad build.

    I totally agree with this (including 'almost').

    My very first char in an MMO (Asheron's Call) was to be an archer. A well meaning but uninformed friend gave me some advice for spending my starting attribute-points that resulted in massively shorting the character on coordination - the only attribute that affected archery. His bow skill would have been a 'couple of levels' behind his charater level for a very long time, maybe even up to lvl 50!

    He finally became a successful melee character :D

    • 9115 posts
    November 10, 2019 5:38 PM PST

    I picked a Raki Rogue in VG as my Class purely because it was considered (along with the Warrior) the hardest class to solo and play well, it was my main for 4-5 years and I loved every minute of it and the challenges I faced while playing! :)

    I want the same choices in Pantheon too.

    • 62 posts
    November 10, 2019 5:55 PM PST

    Of course everything is situational and comes with context - everything within reason.  It does appear the discussion has slightly veered away race/class combos.

    Race/class combo shouldn't be significant enough to matter and hopefully the racial passives (an actives for that matter) are agreeable to this.

    • 47 posts
    November 10, 2019 6:03 PM PST

    Geoffrey said:

     

    Race/class combo shouldn't be significant enough to matter and hopefully the racial passives (an actives for that matter) are agreeable to this.

    Right.  And I would be mind boggled if VR did this.  It would go against a lot of stances they've already taken.

    • 1999 posts
    November 10, 2019 6:37 PM PST

    Talint said:

    .....

    It would go against a lot of stances they've already taken.

    I could just see in my head "Choices have Consequences" I read somewhere in the FAQs. I understand the thought. At the same time I would suggest that 'choices have consequences' doesn't necessarily mean that ALL choices have SIGNIFICANT consequences.

    The choice of race will have a lot of affect on your experiences in the game. It doesn't need to be meaningful to your "maximum functional ability to achieve succes in the game". And it would a foolish mistake if they made it be.

    I don't think they will be foolish.

    • 47 posts
    November 10, 2019 6:39 PM PST

    The day has finally come where Jothany has agreed with something I've said..... There is a God.

    • 1785 posts
    November 10, 2019 9:53 PM PST

    I appreciate and agree with Kurgon's concern here.  And I am quite sure that when Pantheon launches there will be some players who decide that everyone else needs to follow whatever theory-crafted meta they've come up with.

    Speaking as a guild and raid leader, I would much rather have people who have taken their race/class as a character concept and made it their own.  People who revel in being different from others, and in *not* confirming to the "meta".  People who build their character as much for fun and because it speaks to them as they do for so-called effectiveness.  In my experience, those people are almost always better players anyway, both individually, and in terms of being able to work as a team.

    In terms of the game itself, the best possible outcome is that there are multiple viable paths within each class for players to choose from.  "Best in Slot" should be a term that has no meaning in Pantheon, and when someone asks which abilities they should choose to use, the answer should always begin with "well, it depends...."

    My 2 cp.

     

     

    • 2138 posts
    November 10, 2019 9:55 PM PST

     

    Nice point and I would like to expound a bit concerning Groups vs Raids from my assumed perception view of a MMO game devs perspective.

    Groups: What he said. So called Sub-optimal made for challenging gameplay wether intended or not. It made you change your tactics in "sub-optimal" groups to still accomplish your goals often with heroic and cathartic results. I knew a Troll SK, he intentionally chose the race to hinder the INT stat that is needed to be optimal for the class. He wanted the challenge, coincidentally, he was really good and fun to play with. Likewise, a group of 4 casters a warrior and a rogue- kill them fast enough before the war dies- the group dynamic changes, casters are burst DPSing as hard as possible  and the war is doing their best to keep aggro rather than hit and the rogue is the one managing the pace if an add or two comes.

    However in a raid scenario this has a different dynamic as there WAS alot of grey area or fudge area designed into the raid mechanics early on.

    By this I mean you can have sub optimal class make ups in a raid depending on how it is designed but what ends up happening is the optimal players end up towing the line for the larger majority. The raid becomes dependent on a smaller subset of key players where the others are filling in those grey or fudge areas.

    Once the A-players go down its a wipe, or rather the event is carried by a less than full compliment of players. Which is inefficient from a design perspective so the dev may step away from the playerbase and start to design raids where absolutely every ounce of class capability must be used.

    First it starts with attention, move here, move there. Then individual attention to catch the afk'ers  who are used to afking because prior designs depended on a few key coincidentally "optimized" players. Then something to prevent Zerging, Then class uniqueness, you can't do the event unless you have a rogue to pick the prison lock once certain players are banished to the jail, then in a fit of drama, the rogues quit the guild so who can pick the locks now?

    Then you have class "balancing" so none are dependent and the slippery slope starts. Suddenly, the sub-optimal pairings which were ok and even fun in groups are not so good in raids. Sure they are tolerated, but now raids are desinged with DPS checks that need to be met within a certain amount of time and in order to make that DPS check in 10 seconds, all the SK's have to have the highest INT in order to maximize their death touch spell and if one is out? the casters can maybe eek out the difference, but only.... if they are optimized.

    So how can that raid be designed to be epic and not just a larger group encounter? to be able to accomodate the coolness of "sub-optimal" players who are really good like the gnome warrior or the troll sk without havoing to rely on grey areas or gaps.?

    • 47 posts
    November 10, 2019 11:00 PM PST

    Let's not forget this discussion started with the original poster talking about race/class combos - not "speccing".  I take blame here because I responded to his 'friend in WoW Classic' comment and it kind of shifted the rhetoric of this thread.  However, to bring it back - I don't think in the history of MMOs, I can give a game where your race/class combo was the breaking point.  I would challenge anyone here to give me a game where the race/class combo determination made someone far superior than anyone else.  I can't.

    As for what @Manouk stated about raiding with the optimized 'spec' and DPS checks - You're talking about the top 1% of guilds pushing content that they're vastly under geared for.  Once players are on par with the raid encounter (with gear), your ability to play becomes a tad more important than your 'spec' choice.  To an extent of course.  I know I keep bringing up WoW Classic, but I'm sure it's on everyones mind.  I already left my Arcane mage point, but we can build on that further.  Let's say you have a hunter that put all of his points into Survival and melees in raids.  Obviously that is a hinderance.  But if someone plays Marksmen hunter and does the 2/31/18 spec instead of the 20/31/0 spec; they may not be able to do top damage, but they will be able to do competative enough damage to not be a hinderance.  There is a way to have some choice in how you build your character and not be a hinderance.  

    Furthermore.  @Nephele.  You claim you would rather have someone play "for fun" instead of conforming to the meta?  What if I wanted to play a healing Paladin in Pantheon.  My class fantasy is to be a Paladin (for the lore), but to heal because that is my Cleric roots; and they can heal.  Would this be okay?  I doubt you would bring that player because it is sub-optimal.  Sure, Paladin's can heal. But is that what they're for?  No.  I'm all for someone playing a character how they want.  Hell, if I had my choice, I would be a DPS Dire Lord.  But that more than likely isn't going to happen.

    EDIT: (No this is not my fantasy; proving a point)

     


    This post was edited by Talint at November 10, 2019 11:06 PM PST
    • 1999 posts
    November 10, 2019 11:06 PM PST

    Talint said:

    The day has finally come where Jothany has agreed with something I've said..... There is a God.

    If I'm the answer to your prayers..... you are in DEEP doo-doo!

    :D

    • 139 posts
    November 11, 2019 2:52 AM PST

    I've always liked in RPGs there are pros and cons to whatever you pick. There shouldn't be optimal builds or optimal anythings. There should the best builds for specific content. Obviously it's difficult to do for balancing but it's well worth it to make MMORPGs feel more alive and lived in. 

    • 1247 posts
    November 11, 2019 3:43 AM PST

    Yep. There are pros and cons to each race and to each class. Do your research and decide what you want. Nobody, and I repeat, nobody gets “the best of everything.”

    #communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels

     


    This post was edited by Syrif at November 11, 2019 3:44 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    November 11, 2019 5:12 AM PST

    There have always been minmaxers in every game that has a choice of how you 'build' a character.  In pen and paper dungeons and dragons you had (and no doubt still have) 'rule-players' as opposed to 'role-players' who were more interested in being the statistically best they could be than in the more general 'fun' that the game allowed/allows.

    They were fine if they didn't do it at the expense of others (hogging treasures and/or being painfully competitive with other players).

    It's not different in MMORPGs even back as far as MUDs and EQ.  It's not a 'modern' thing, though it's perhaps been pandered to more in modern games.

    Of course, games that allow greater diversity with builds, like WoW speccing and exemplified in Rift's class design obviously allow for greater minmaxing alongside their greater player choice.

    It's not 'good' or 'bad' it's just a different focus and, as has been said here, it's up to the players if they worry about that minmaxing.

    In a lot of games your build is fundamental.  You can design a character that ranges from over-powered to awful and it depends on the player as to whether you find either 'fun'.

    Pantheon's race bonuses do encourage some minmaxing and will have some effect on some people when they choose characters for groups and raids.  Not as much as in WoW or Rift or whatever, but of course it will have *some* effect.

    If you're going into a tough encounter and you have the option of an ogre warrior or a halfling warrior, neither of which you know, the ogre race may well sway your choice.

    But it's going to the minimal and is worth it for some meaningful race diversity, isn't it?

    As long as the impact of race bonuses isn't too significant when compared with player skill, experience and collected gear, then it won't matter.  That will shake out and be tweaked in alpha and beta testing, hopefully.

    • 500 posts
    November 11, 2019 5:17 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    I appreciate and agree with Kurgon's concern here.  And I am quite sure that when Pantheon launches there will be some players who decide that everyone else needs to follow whatever theory-crafted meta they've come up with.

    Speaking as a guild and raid leader, I would much rather have people who have taken their race/class as a character concept and made it their own.  People who revel in being different from others, and in *not* confirming to the "meta".  People who build their character as much for fun and because it speaks to them as they do for so-called effectiveness.  In my experience, those people are almost always better players anyway, both individually, and in terms of being able to work as a team.

    In terms of the game itself, the best possible outcome is that there are multiple viable paths within each class for players to choose from.  "Best in Slot" should be a term that has no meaning in Pantheon, and when someone asks which abilities they should choose to use, the answer should always begin with "well, it depends...."

    My 2 cp.

    Well said Nephele. I prefer to play with folks that are more concerned about having fun while progressing, than those who are obsessed with some perceived meta.