I will be perfectly happy if the passives work in different ways.
But if they happen to work in the same exact way they should *really* have the same language used to describe them. Whether the language is precise or vague isn't important to me but using widely varying terminology implies that there is some difference in the things being dexcribed.
Questaar said:I'm impressed with the analysis of these passive abilities especially since we don't know anything about what active abilities there might be. We don't know how each passive actually affects each player. These passive abilities won't affect my race/class choice. If my race-class choice prohibits me from joining certain groups/guilds so be it. I'm going to be a (my description) high amount of hours played, role playing, alt aholic that wants to join a more casual guild that is not going to require only certain race/class combos, or defines how I play my toon. You can help me learn my class? Thanks, I'll love learning. If you're gonna be upset because I slowed the mob instead of healing the DPS, well there's more than one way to play a class. I've played mmorpgs since 1997 and I've never seen a group of more whiny people in my life. O, humans are OP, no Gnomes are. Rinse/repeat for every variable in game. JFC, it's a game. There are also some of the best people in the world that plays mmos. I'll be hanging with those that enjoy a social atmosphere, enjoy the interplay between adults, figuring out their class, and puzzles. Looks like a potentially great game.
This perspective should be represented, perhaps with a little less offense, by more members in the House of Player Parliament.
stellarmind said:disposalist said:It is until guilds and even groups start insisting on ogre warriors because without stun immunity certain ecounters are harder.
As soon as you give some combo too much of a distinct and significant advantage a good proportion of players will see it as de facto and start rejecting anything else.
"You're a halfling warrior? Nah, sorry, I'll pick the ogre one two levels lower than you instead - go back to LFG".
Yeah, maybe not just because of the 5% crit, but with stun immunity and attack power too? And what about them dwarfs?
"You're a halfling warrior? Nah, sorry, I'll pick the dwarf - our healer can be slow off the mark - we need the extra health pool".
They just need to be a bit careful. There are some great ideas in there and nice lore, but still, some races got "wow!" and others "meh" when it comes to the gameplay impact, I think.
it's the price we pay for diverse racials. there is going to be discrimination, more so with minmaxers. like with cars trucks suvs(class). we are going to discriminate against brand names(race). oh if i'm gonig to buy a truck, buy a ford, not a honda. honda trucks suck.
to go back to pantheon. we could even say that dwarf warriors are going to be better in some situations(key thing is CERTAIN SITUATIONS) where being disarmed just guts my ability to tank. therefore the dwarf is way better than the ogre warrior. say a boss has high burst damage, skar having extra hp% is better. keep in mind the ogre racial is NON MAGIC stun only
besides halfling warriors bonus consumble effect could be comparable. like 20% stronger effects(we don't know exactly what it does)? great for a tank if u pot like a caffiend addict. aaww ye.
Exactly this. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I have seen too many games ruin unique classes and unique races in the name of balance. Some classes and races and class/race combos will be better at some things than others. As long as each class and race combo can effectively (not equally!!!) perform a role then in my opinion that's the most important thing.
Ok, I get the argument that it's ok for races to be good/better at some classes.
Would be nice to see all races have at least one class they are distinctly better at.
What does a Halfling suit as well as an Ogre suits being a Warrior/Dire Lord?
disposalist said:Ok, I get the argument that it's ok for races to be good/better at some classes.
Would be nice to see all races have at least one class they are distinctly better at.
What does a Halfling suit as well as an Ogre suits being a Warrior/Dire Lord?
Rogue. Consumables bonus and two levels worth of bonus to daggers = less misses and more high/max damage rolls on higher level targets.
But it sure would be nice if all races had something that stood out. Sadly Skar and Dark Myr missed the boat for passives, time will tell how their actives pan out.
Yeah I'm sure Dagger skill is a good talent for rogues. Especially if backstab depends of it.
Skar's are going to be formidable tanks, 5% health is way better than any other talents here.
Myr, I don't know. Acclimatation can offer real tough bonuses on endgame, but lackluster during levelling process.
MauvaisOeil said:Skar's are going to be formidable tanks, 5% health is way better than any other talents here.
It isn't though. That 5% (50 health for every 1000) is an extremely situational benefit which is only worthwhile on any rare occasion that you survive with less than 5% hp. Meanwhile things like permanent haste, extra attack rating per STR/Dex or extra benefits from other stats are more useful and I'd wager for most classes will be beneficial in almost every fight.
Iksar said:MauvaisOeil said:Skar's are going to be formidable tanks, 5% health is way better than any other talents here.
It isn't though. That 5% (50 health for every 1000) is an extremely situational benefit which is only worthwhile on any rare occasion that you survive with less than 5% hp. Meanwhile things like permanent haste, extra attack rating per STR/Dex or extra benefits from other stats are more useful and I'd wager for most classes will be beneficial in almost every fight.
Depends, really depends. Gauging the usefullness of 5% health on a tank over hypothetical situations that will happen all along his career of bruise taker is like trying to theorize hazard. It will be usefull, it can be useless sometimes. It can also save any class, in any situation, but it's not predictable. Also it synergises well with Direlord's abilities scaling out of maximum health so it's a safe bet to say it's a good Direlord race as well as Ogre are, or humans.
It's quite universal, even if it will mostly shine on tank classes.
It's okay to have variance between races, i.e. some races being stronger than others. However, it seems to me that some balancing/re-tweaking needs to be done with these passives to narrow that variance to a level that's more appropriate. For example, the Ogre's racials are significantly stronger than other races and should probably be toned down/changed. As it stands, for example, it would be noticeably detrimental to choose a non-Ogre race for the Dire Lord class.
Variance is good, but the level of variance for these current racials is just a little too much. The band of variance should be narrowed a bit.
Honestly, I think that stat allotment and active racial abilities need to be gone over first before any definitive opinion can be made. I will say that currently some of the classes that are limited race wise might be in a meh position. For example, clerics have access to Darkmir, Humans, and Dwarfs. All three of those classes have passive racials that are meh for the cleric class. The dwarfs have arguably the strongest of the three with an increase to health from stamina gains and the acclamation to fridged and toxic environments. While the humans come in second with shield mastery and a 2% increase to spell haste. The Darkmir race doesn't get anything that provides a benefit to the class.
Honestly in this situation, the stat allotment and active racials are going to hold more influence and weight.
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disposalist said:What does a Halfling suit as well as an Ogre suits being a Warrior/Dire Lord?
They suit being a new class that will be released with the 1st expansion pack. VR is thinking years ahead of the rest of us who are only focused on the release date of Thrusday, Sept. 22nd, 2022.
Counterfleche said: I am disappointed with the racial passives because too many of them give clear advantages for specific classes. This creates optimal race-class combos which leads to less diversity and increased frustration for anyone who doesn't pick an optimal combo. I was hoping to see more of an asymmetric balance to allow each race to feel distinct but to avoid such clear-cut winners and losers. For example, a way to asymmetrically balance tanks would be to have some races do more damage, while others are better at avoiding damage, resisting damage, or holding aggro. Each choice would have its strengths and weaknesses.
This is how I feel as well. I'm concerned that if I pick a race/class combo that I want to play and immerse myself with in the world, but if it's not a part of the "meta" based on that race's passives when considering my class, then I'll be punished for my choice. Well said Counterfleche
Counterfleche said: I am disappointed with the racial passives because too many of them give clear advantages for specific classes. This creates optimal race-class combos which leads to less diversity and increased frustration for anyone who doesn't pick an optimal combo. I was hoping to see more of an asymmetric balance to allow each race to feel distinct but to avoid such clear-cut winners and losers. For example, a way to asymmetrically balance tanks would be to have some races do more damage, while others are better at avoiding damage, resisting damage, or holding aggro. Each choice would have its strengths and weaknesses.
They are going to have this with the different base starting stats with the races. Some will be stronger and do more damage and hold aggro better, others will be more agile and avoid more damage. And I think your concern about the meta is that we haven't seen the "Active" racials yet that could greatly even out the innate benefits. World of Warcraft had some of these exact things that Pantheon largely copied for innate racials and while it did have some impact on the meta (largely human weapon bonuses), in the end it truly did not matter. However, the active racial ablities made a huge difference early on, especially Fearward for the Dwarf Priest.
The one thing we have learned over the years is that you don't want things even across the board, you want classes and races to feel as unique and special as possible. That keeps people playing and invests them in their toon. Sure, some people might cry because they want a certain ability or perk on their favorite race or class, but too bad. Having to make weighty decisions early in the game as you create your character is very important to long term success. It should be a give and take that requires a lot of forethought. Also, Everquest 1 combated some of the lesser desired race/class combos by actually making rare drops in the game for that specific combo (Erudite SK for example comes to mind to make up for their lack of strength). Everquest 1 also had rare items based on the diety chosen as well to further make initial character development more strategic and diverse.
In the end, I agree with your overall point, I just think it's WAY WAY WAY too early to harp on this, you have to see how all the other character development levers they are implementing tie in before claiming these passive innates have formed a meta that everyone will adhere to. No matter what, there is going to be a meta though. There is going to be a consensus on the best combo even if it is minute.
@Mathir I am fine with base stats being different. If they do their gear correctly and have stat caps then it shouldn't matter. A BiS chestpiece on a ogre warrior will be different for a halfling warrior. I find this great.
When it comes to racial passives though I don't mind if one race/class combo is better than another, but when you give nothing good to a few races then it's just stupid. Dark Myr for instance have a ton of different classes they can be...like the humans. Their racial passives should project that and allow for more classes to be viable with their passives. But they have crap for racials really. Most of them won't matter in later levels. But other races have some nice stuff that will be benefical late game.
@dispolist
if making and using consumables is your thing, the halfling is probably going to be the best choice for any class with this modus operandi. if it's 20%(maybe 10% is more balanced) increased effect for the drugs, then that's a pretty good racial.
@bambam
a tank with 5% more hp is pretty good for healers pushing for efficiency. it can give an additional .1 to .3 second window difference between choosing a mana costly fast heal vs a slower mana friendly heal. it's marginal, but hardcore healers always appreciate more buffer time to decide on a healing spell.
dark myr passives are really good for rogue utility.
@counterfleche
there's going to be minmaxers, hardcore players and guilds that are going pick on every little detail. most of the racial passives are either strong situationally or marginally good in general. eh most of this type of discrimation occurs on the pve side since generality and consistency is the name of the game. pvp tends to lean into a variety of situations so diversity is typically embraced. i'm going with ember elf enchanter and that's a pretty sub optimal choice based on passive racials when it comes to pve(gnome or human is probably the optimal choice, then ashen elf falling in line with dwarf and dark myr with no significant advantage based on what i know).
@mathir
i agree. we should take this information as a grain of salt because we don't know what the active racials will be.
i'll reiterate this again:
the cost for diversity in racial abilities is class discrimination(then minmaxers and hardcore elitist emerge- common arguement is then meta gaming dictates race/class choice).
the cost for class diversity is racial generalization(then aesthetics usually dictates and race choice doesn't matter-common arguement is why even have different races to begin with).
the more something is unknown the greater the diversity.
the more something is known the greater the generalization.
pick your poison you can't have it both ways. if you ask me, it is way more exciting for the unknown, because we are all talking and speculating about it right now.
I've been thinking even more about these racial passives vis-a-vis evolution. It would stand to reason that a race would, over the ages, develop specific, innate, responses to those things it faces in their environment. So looking at the Dwarves, they must have been regularly facing off against creatures/beings that would often attempt to disarm them. Skar must have faced horrific creatures that cast Fear, or caused Fear, to then develop an improved resistance to it.
So when it comes to the any given character utilizing their passive abilities, they would experience it far more often in their home ranges and not so much outside those lands, would it not? So once you travel outside your home range, the chances of encountering those things that evolution has given you would decrease. Logically, then, your innate passives (at least for most of the races), would become less of a benefit over time.
Vandraad said:I've been thinking even more about these racial passives vis-a-vis evolution. It would stand to reason that a race would, over the ages, develop specific, innate, responses to those things it faces in their environment. So looking at the Dwarves, they must have been regularly facing off against creatures/beings that would often attempt to disarm them. Skar must have faced horrific creatures that cast Fear, or caused Fear, to then develop an improved resistance to it.
So when it comes to the any given character utilizing their passive abilities, they would experience it far more often in their home ranges and not so much outside those lands, would it not? So once you travel outside your home range, the chances of encountering those things that evolution has given you would decrease. Logically, then, your innate passives (at least for most of the races), would become less of a benefit over time.
It's not honestly how I view them. I envision them more as a cultural / Physical attributes than some evolution. The skar's culture seems to be ruthless, bloody, and favor recklessness which is countering fear itself.
The dwarves are built like stone and ice, sturdy and solid. That probably makes their grip tough and disarming them impossible.
Also... Evolution is not made by creatures learning how to counter something and giving it to their progeny, but by the death of thoses that are less good to face it. Mutations appears randomly and can sometimes be a curse, and sometime be the factor that will let you survive, reproduce and transfer your genes. Some are both as well, like Thalassemias or Drepanocytosis that counter the paludism and allow some of the population to be non hindered by that disease, at the cost of a portion of the population beeing in severe health condition.
Vandraad said:I've been thinking even more about these racial passives vis-a-vis evolution. It would stand to reason that a race would, over the ages, develop specific, innate, responses to those things it faces in their environment. So looking at the Dwarves, they must have been regularly facing off against creatures/beings that would often attempt to disarm them. Skar must have faced horrific creatures that cast Fear, or caused Fear, to then develop an improved resistance to it.
So when it comes to the any given character utilizing their passive abilities, they would experience it far more often in their home ranges and not so much outside those lands, would it not? So once you travel outside your home range, the chances of encountering those things that evolution has given you would decrease. Logically, then, your innate passives (at least for most of the races), would become less of a benefit over time.
dwarves immune to disarm because the cold will disarm anybody not use to the weather. skar is odd cuz the only thing they fear is the nine gods so everything else is a joke. why would dark myr have insight and stealth and awareness? well u better get gud at hiding and seek in the open vastness of the ocean. the best camo creatures are from the deep (octopus aw ye)
our irl 'passives' are due to our environment :D we can acclimate over time, but as a tropical person, i'm not going to do as well in the cold compared to someone that was born and raised 7 generations in. vice versa ^.^
stellarmind said:Vandraad said:I've been thinking even more about these racial passives vis-a-vis evolution. It would stand to reason that a race would, over the ages, develop specific, innate, responses to those things it faces in their environment. So looking at the Dwarves, they must have been regularly facing off against creatures/beings that would often attempt to disarm them. Skar must have faced horrific creatures that cast Fear, or caused Fear, to then develop an improved resistance to it.
So when it comes to the any given character utilizing their passive abilities, they would experience it far more often in their home ranges and not so much outside those lands, would it not? So once you travel outside your home range, the chances of encountering those things that evolution has given you would decrease. Logically, then, your innate passives (at least for most of the races), would become less of a benefit over time.
dwarves immune to disarm because the cold will disarm anybody not use to the weather. skar is odd cuz the only thing they fear is the nine gods so everything else is a joke. why would dark myr have insight and stealth and awareness? well u better get gud at hiding and seek in the open vastness of the ocean. the best camo creatures are from the deep (octopus aw ye)
our irl 'passives' are due to our environment :D we can acclimate over time, but as a tropical person, i'm not going to do as well in the cold compared to someone that was born and raised 7 generations in. vice versa ^.^
What it still does not explain is why the Dwarves get 100% resist to disarm yet another races only see some increased chance to resist something. The problem with percentage based calculations is that you can, possibly, ever actually resist the thing for which you have an increased chance to resist. I'd really appreciate it if VR would explain the logic behind the 100% immunity granted the Dwarves while only giving some increased chance to all the other races.
Vandraad said:What it still does not explain is why the Dwarves get 100% resist to disarm yet another races only see some increased chance to resist something. The problem with percentage based calculations is that you can, possibly, ever actually resist the thing for which you have an increased chance to resist. I'd really appreciate it if VR would explain the logic behind the 100% immunity granted the Dwarves while only giving some increased chance to all the other races.
they'll balance it out overtime. i think the concept is good lorewise and fits with the environment and culture of the race. maybe a reduction in duration could be considered instead. so instead of 100% immunity to disarm for 5 seconds, have it where disarm time is only 3 seconds. removes the rng factor, alot more clear cut.
or maybe the dwarf active racials is ehhhhhh at best. who knows? it is still alpha so devs are just throwing a prototype out there and see how the community reacts. any feedback is probably valuable if the thought process is valid in accordance to the vision of the maker.
to be fair it's a very specific situation though. disarm accounts for 1 out of... uhh quite a bit of status effects?(i forget to add how common is the disarm compared to other cc?)
i get what you are saying though. why is it 100% disarm immunity passive all the time as opposed to ogre racial with 2 component non magical stun immunity active and a passive 20% resist. same reason could be said why skar only have a 20% passive resist to fear.
i guess what you are looking for is a streamline approach to the racials? i could get on board with that.