Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

CR Hot Line

    • 416 posts
    October 10, 2019 1:52 PM PDT

    The dev diary post got me thinking again about what made EQ so immersive and one of the things I always go back to is the death penalty and that it truly put you in the fear of death, which in turn made you very aware of your surroundings since death could be around any corner. Having to pay such close attention by necessity immersed you in the world. One of the main arguments against harsh death penalaties is that people are afraid that if they have to log off before they can recover their corpse they then will have a much harder time recovering it. What if we made that process not quite as scary, a sort of safety net that relies on the community. What if there were a CR Hot Line, for lack of a better term, where people who needed help with a cr could just reach out to the community for help in a formal way. I understand you can always /shout or do some other chat but those aren't always well received and may not reach people who might be willing to lend a hand. This would be opt-in only so if you didn't want to receive notice someone was looking for help you wouldn't need to. And you can opt-in or out at any time. It also may take away the stigma of asking for help because we have all been there. There could also be other features like /ignore or certain level ranges, regions, whatever options people wanted, making it easier for those needing help to find those willing to help.

    • 523 posts
    October 10, 2019 4:10 PM PDT

    I think all we really need is to make it so CR's are mandatory, but your body and gear doesn't disappear for good after "X" amount of time.  If people don't have the time to do a CR, they can wait until they log in again and get it figured out.  I'm very reluctant to make CR's easier or less scary, that defeats the purpose, but they also shouldn't essentially permadeath your character either.  Massive stress and time constraints does nobody any good.  

    Now, your specific idea has merit, but I think it's very easy to just shout for help.  This community is going to help you, at least someone will.  And at both low levels, due to lack of significant challenge, and high levels, due to rezzes and powerful classes, CRs aren't going to be too awful.  I HOPE Pantheon has some original PoH and PoF type zones, but I'm not holding my breath.  If the CRs play out like EQ1 though, for the most part, the community was beyond amazing at helping out, even in raid zones that took hours to recover.  And those memories and the thanks for those people stick with me.  The CRs in modern games, even Classic WoW, are non-existant and an absolute joke.  Being able to rez at a ghost for a penalty is the stupidest mechanic of all time.  If someone doesn't have the time or the patience to risk a long CR, simply avoid that content.  Risk v Reward is massively important.  Easy CRs or respawning at a ghost for a small penalty absolutely murders it.

    • 999 posts
    October 10, 2019 5:34 PM PDT

    A LFG UI style menu combined with Craiglist style advertising. Level 50 Necro - “The corpse runner” charging 20 pp per corpse retrieval.

    Interesting concept - definitely a new one here for me - and I can’t say that often anymore. As far as your opinion on the death penalty, I agree - and it gives me another opportunity to link the Wolfshead article discussing it and its importance for the 10000th time on these forums:

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/


    This post was edited by Raidan at October 10, 2019 5:36 PM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    October 10, 2019 6:04 PM PDT

    @Thorndeep. You almost lost me with your ""What if we made that process not quite as scary"" comment. A corpse run is supposed to be scarry! And I can't explain why any better than that link that Raiden shared. (If you or anyone else hasn't read that, they REALLY should) 

    But your idea, summarized as VR supplying us some tools to help bring the community together in times if need. Now THAT I can get behind. (We shouldn't need to feel alone) Like Radian built on it with the " Craigslist style advertising" I have been a big advocate for, or even as part of Brads vision for a matchmaking tool (Pantheon's LFG) Add a LFCR to it, yes i would think either would be great.

     

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/183/matchmaking-systems-what-we-re-up-to-and-why-part-1

     


    This post was edited by Zorkon at October 10, 2019 6:06 PM PDT
    • 416 posts
    October 10, 2019 6:25 PM PDT

    @Zorkon Yeah, by "not so scary" I didn't really mean the CR itself but more the idea that you would be left with no one to help you if you couldn't get your corpse right away. Like you mentioned, the idea is based around bringing the community together and I did envsion it similair to the matchmaking tool, as an add on to that would be great. Again a way not to mitigate the penatly but to reach out for help when really needed.

     

    @Raidan I also really like your idea. Maybe when someone brought up the CR Hot Line all the posts by those willing to help out would come up.

     

    • 1019 posts
    October 11, 2019 6:34 AM PDT

    PERMADEATH!!!!

    • 3852 posts
    October 11, 2019 7:36 AM PDT

    Permadeath works better as a temporary event in a MMO - especially since death and the need for a difficult or impossible corpse run may result from a game crash or major bug. As in the previously suggested temporary establishment of a permadeath server with prizes for accounts that achieve specified goals. But with death costing no more than a temporary character that was going to be wiped when the event was over in any case.

    Sorry - off topic.

    I am not sure that anything different is needed here. We will already have chat channels and LFG tools and if the LFG tool has space for saying the purpose someone is forming a group for (as it should) one entirely legitimate purpose is to help on a corpse run.

    I also look to the possibility that the unfortunate player will not be able to either solo the corpse run or get adaquate help. Or at least not in a reasonable time frame. 

     Is it reasonable that a player will not be able to play the game for a week other than begging for help with a possibly *very* difficult run? Unless he or she starts a new character. Or should there be an alternative mechanism e.g. double the xp loss and perhaps even loss of a random item if the player gives up and summons the corpse to a safe place. Graveyard or corpse-retrieval NPC.


    This post was edited by dorotea at October 11, 2019 7:37 AM PDT
    • 416 posts
    October 11, 2019 8:10 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    I am not sure that anything different is needed here. We will already have chat channels and LFG tools and if the LFG tool has space for saying the purpose someone is forming a group for (as it should) one entirely legitimate purpose is to help on a corpse run.

    I also look to the possibility that the unfortunate player will not be able to either solo the corpse run or get adaquate help. Or at least not in a reasonable time frame. 

     Is it reasonable that a player will not be able to play the game for a week other than begging for help with a possibly *very* difficult run? Unless he or she starts a new character. Or should there be an alternative mechanism e.g. double the xp loss and perhaps even loss of a random item if the player gives up and summons the corpse to a safe place. Graveyard or corpse-retrieval NPC.

    This is exactly the situation that I am trying to address, when the traditional methods of looking for help don't work and the player is stuck unable to recover their corpse in a reasonable time. The CR Hot Line would be an easy way for people to reach out to the broader community for help, maybe even connecting them with folks who are dedicated to helping out that the newer or unfortunate player is unaware of. With this community "safety net" I'm also trying to avoid watering down the death penalty with other methods.

    • 523 posts
    October 11, 2019 10:16 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Permadeath works better as a temporary event in a MMO - especially since death and the need for a difficult or impossible corpse run may result from a game crash or major bug. As in the previously suggested temporary establishment of a permadeath server with prizes for accounts that achieve specified goals. But with death costing no more than a temporary character that was going to be wiped when the event was over in any case.

    Sorry - off topic.

    I am not sure that anything different is needed here. We will already have chat channels and LFG tools and if the LFG tool has space for saying the purpose someone is forming a group for (as it should) one entirely legitimate purpose is to help on a corpse run.

    I also look to the possibility that the unfortunate player will not be able to either solo the corpse run or get adaquate help. Or at least not in a reasonable time frame. 

     Is it reasonable that a player will not be able to play the game for a week other than begging for help with a possibly *very* difficult run? Unless he or she starts a new character. Or should there be an alternative mechanism e.g. double the xp loss and perhaps even loss of a random item if the player gives up and summons the corpse to a safe place. Graveyard or corpse-retrieval NPC.

     

    No.  Never.  Death Penalty has to be respected, if you can avoid a corpse retrieval in any capacity, it trivializes the threat of the world.  Actually fighting back to your body *is* a significant portion of what seperates the players.  Some people don't have the time or capacity to risk adventuring in the most lucrative but dangerous zones.  And lets not forget here, some classes (Necros and Dire Lords?) will be able to summon corpses.  This is the same concept as a teleport.  Yes, having an NPC or permanent portal option saves time, but it takes away from the game AND it takes away from the classes that have the unique ability to assist other players in the manner desired (Druids/Wizards for ports, and Necros/DLs for Corpse Summons).  EQ1 absolutely nailed the death penalty.

     

    The answer to this in my mind is that if you don't want to deal with the ramifications of a corpse recovery, adjust where you adventure, there should be plenty of options.  I also don't believe it will be difficult at all to get your corpse due to community help (Rogues/Monks dragging bodies, Necros/DLs summoning corpses, Priests/Pallies rezzing, and just good ol' fashioned fighting back to where you died if the mobs aren't already cleared anyway).  And even if the game does have raid zones like PoH and PoF where the corpse recovery can be amplified, I think that risk just seperates the men from the boys.

    • 3852 posts
    October 11, 2019 10:41 AM PDT

    Thorndeep - understood. My assumption was that normal communication channels would be sufficient for a HELP to get to almost everyone. Yours was to the contrary and you may be right - this is something we don't know yet.

    Mathir - I agree death needs to sting. I think a much heavier xp loss or loss of item or both is sufficient, and spending many hours or days with nothing to do but look at a computer screen while asking for help is excessive. You do not.

    I agree that in a well-traveled area it may not be a big issue. But someone may have been way off the beaten path exploring. Someone may have been in a group or even raid area that is rarely visited - maybe most characters aren't a high enough level yet to go there. Maybe they were in a group and crashed or ran out of time to play and when they came back they were all alone in this remote area that 95% of the player base was too low for. Thus my suggestion of a *painful* way for them to be able to play that character again.

     In response to your last sentance I can pretty well guarantee that Dorotea will not be one of the boys. Then again, neither will she be one of the men.


    This post was edited by dorotea at October 11, 2019 10:43 AM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    October 11, 2019 12:20 PM PDT

    You already have access to numerous 'hotlines' for help:  Guild chat, friends list, OOC, Shout, Say, Tell/Whispher.  What more do you need?  Make more friends is the easiest and best answer.

    • 2138 posts
    October 11, 2019 7:00 PM PDT

    Thank you Raidan!

    Now, Iirc, there were two parts to the "draconic" death penalty in old EQ. part 1- Exp loss. Part 2 Gear loss

    Part 1. if you didn't get rezzed in 12 Real time hours I think it was? or 24? you would not get exp back <- NO BIG DEAL

    Part 2. if you didnt get your corpse, you lost all your gear <- BIG DEAL BUT BUT BUT- you had I think 7 Real time days to get your corpse counting from death.

    So if you died on a saturday, and never got a rez- NO BIG DEAL-you could always get it back, but if you ran around naked asdking for help or hanging around the dungeon- you had untill the following saturday to get your corpse and all your gear. so you could log out, go to work, sleep, log back in, start over looking for those to help, and keep going for a week.

    My idea- which sone didnt seem to get for whatever reason- was keep that timer, but link it to hours counted when you logged in. so, 7 real time days, you could die today, log out. 10 years later log back in, and have 6 days 23 hours left to stil lfind your corpse. Takes the sting out, eh? maybe too much.

    Perhaps 7 days Real time starting from when you die is good enough. no matter what anyone says, I hope they dont have some weird geeky influence. 

    • 1399 posts
    October 12, 2019 10:47 AM PDT

    Manouk said:

    Thank you Raidan!

    Now, Iirc, there were two parts to the "draconic" death penalty in old EQ. part 1- Exp loss. Part 2 Gear loss

    Part 1. if you didn't get rezzed in 12 Real time hours I think it was? or 24? you would not get exp back <- NO BIG DEAL

    Part 2. if you didnt get your corpse, you lost all your gear <- BIG DEAL BUT BUT BUT- you had I think 7 Real time days to get your corpse counting from death.

    So if you died on a saturday, and never got a rez- NO BIG DEAL-you could always get it back, but if you ran around naked asdking for help or hanging around the dungeon- you had untill the following saturday to get your corpse and all your gear. so you could log out, go to work, sleep, log back in, start over looking for those to help, and keep going for a week.

    My idea- which sone didnt seem to get for whatever reason- was keep that timer, but link it to hours counted when you logged in. so, 7 real time days, you could die today, log out. 10 years later log back in, and have 6 days 23 hours left to stil lfind your corpse. Takes the sting out, eh? maybe too much.

    Perhaps 7 days Real time starting from when you die is good enough. no matter what anyone says, I hope they dont have some weird geeky influence. 

    There was one other detail about the draconian EQ Death Penalty that you haven't touched on. Throughout that week while you were at work your corpse was still visable and dragable (IF consent had been granted) more than once our guild members would drag corpses for people that couldn't log back in till the weekend. Our "Quest" for the day would be "seek out Guild member X's corpse in Dungeon Y and drag it to zone" 

    Now if the corpse rot time was instead base on log in time, and that player Rage Quit, or just on a trial quit after death, or went on vacation for a few weeks, whatever it might be. I would only see two options..

    1) the corpse would need to disapear while the player was logged of. No more dragging for an offline player.

    2) the world would eventually be littered with corpses.

    I suppose the corpse could be triggered to appear if the player OR anyone consented logged in.... but now I wonder about the loss of 

    /shout "has anybody see my corpse"

    A lot of holes with the disappearing corpse thing, as well as a lot with the 7 days online time.

    • 999 posts
    October 12, 2019 3:19 PM PDT

    Yeah, the only problem with no corpse rot unless logged in is you'd have 10+ year corpses on the ground, unless they were removed in a server patch, etc. which, would again would lead to the problem of rotting corpses.  I like the idea of the timer only running while logged in, but not sure how you could avoid the graveyard of corpses issue.

    • 1399 posts
    October 12, 2019 6:25 PM PDT

    Raidan said:

    Yeah, the only problem with no corpse rot unless logged in is you'd have 10+ year corpses on the ground, unless they were removed in a server patch, etc. which, would again would lead to the problem of rotting corpses.  I like the idea of the timer only running while logged in, but not sure how you could avoid the graveyard of corpses issue.

    Yea, that's what I mean. Can you imagine the smell!

    Well Brad has said (no item loss) but he hasn't said no denial of items. My thoughts are your items stay on your corpse for one real time week.... get'em, fight necked, or play an alt. After a week the corpse rots and all items are sent to the character in an overflow where they will stay for X amount of logged in time.

    Rot and overflow times can be adjusted. Experience recovered from looting the corpse could be tied to this as well..

    Rot= 0%

    Day 6= 10%

    Day 5= 20%

    And so on....