In situation where a group of friends wants to play together from start, but they all have different races - do you think there should be one time (ONLY!) teleport scroll available (bound to character at creation) that takes character to the central city, where people can meet and start their adventure from there? Or should they always start at race specific area and travel solo till they finally meet?
Hegenox said:In situation where a group of friends wants to play together from start, but they all have different races - do you think there should be one time (ONLY!) teleport scroll available (bound to character at creation) that takes character to the central city, where people can meet and start their adventure from there? Or should they always start at race specific area and travel solo till they finally meet?
Absolutely NO to the teleport scroll.
Absolutely YES to the start at a race specific area. (And I would HOPE it's an incredibly perilous journey to the others)
Now "travel solo" that should be a choice. Personally I would spend a day or two fighting in the home city letting all new friends i grouped with know I wanted to make this journey until I had a traveling party of like minded people that said "Let's DO this!!"
That's kinda the whole point isn't it?
I understand where the OP is coming from. In a game that holds community paramount, you'd think that your choice of race shouldn't get in the way of playing together. It has been very disappointing in the past when I've brought people into a game, got them to choose a character and then had to talk them through actually needing to all choose the same race and not the ones they want or having to play separately for some hours until they can get through the initial stage and be able to join up.
That being said... Pantheon is hopefully going to be a very long-term prospect. Having to choose the same race isn't the end of the world. You can always have an alt later. Having to adventure separately for a few hours in a game you'll be playing for months (years hopefully) isn't too bad, especially in the days of voice chat (actually quite entertaining listening to what others are discovering as you do). There will probably be a way, even if tough, to get together and that experience in the past has made for some great stories and friendships.
Overall, I would say, no. But *shrug* it wouldn't be the end of the world either, for it to be optional to start *not* in your racial start area. Why wouldn't an adventurous sort start their career by getting on a caravan to a foreign city? Usually the racial area is only a 'tutorial' area for the first couple of levels anyway - people want to get out into the world, not stay where they grew up. If you're an experienced player bringing in a new one who wants to choose a different race to you, it would perhaps be nice if you two could skip the tutorial racial starter and get together. The experienced player can always fill in the tutorial info for the new player.
Hegenox said:In situation where a group of friends wants to play together from start, but they all have different races - do you think there should be one time (ONLY!) teleport scroll available (bound to character at creation) that takes character to the central city, where people can meet and start their adventure from there? Or should they always start at race specific area and travel solo till they finally meet?
Well, first off, there is no 'central city'. There is a city for each race. Now one of them might exist in a more central part of the map there are still the issues of faction and class availability. If you really wanted to play an Ogre and your friends all went with Elves, and you had some teleport scroll to send you there, well, you'd be dead in seconds as (it is to be assumed) the Ogres will be KOS to the Elves. Add to this the race/class restrictions, you would not want to teleport to a city that does not have the class you are playing as you would not have access to the class trainer, spells, etc.
Yep. You would (ideally) have to perform a tremendous number of selfless deeds, acts of sacrifice, or similar, to approach an opposing city. (good->evil, evil->good).
It might be possible the Guards might not kill you if you were one of the neutral races, but even then, it might only be 2/3 races that won't Kill you On Sight.
Hopefully. :)
As funny as that would be on a pvp server by getting like 50-60 gnomes to tp to a friend who is a ogre or something and then starting a war...no. The cities will hate you. If you are human and your friend is a Dark Myr, Ogre, or Skar, then you will die. You won't be able to sell, you won't be able to bank, you won't be able to get your abilities, and you won't be able to do any starter quests. I would play alpha and then choose a good race...they get along more or less, and then figure out in alpha how to meet up.
The primary reaction seems to be negative and I am not sure how much of that is for good reason and how much is simply a reflexive dislike of anything that makes the world feel smaller. Note that I share the basic mindset that other things being equal anything that makes the world feel smaller is a negative. Are other things equal here?
The key to this suggestion is that the item is single use. I also note that it does nothing to change racial attitudes. If you arrive in a starter town where you are KoS you die. If you arrive in a town where the people won't talk to you there are no trainers or merchants available. I further note that it is intended for new characters and to a very large extent new players. Many will not start the game understanding how these things work. Teleporting to a town where you get killed frequently or cannot deal with the locals - maybe cannot even talk to them - is not an inducement to keep playing. Though you or I in that situation would simply start a new character with only a few minutes or hours of time wasted.
Continuing with almost flow of conciousness brainstorming. Let us modify the proposed item and make its use more transparent. Let us also assume that certain races are compatable and can start in each other's towns with no serious ill effects. Let us flesh out the OP's suggestion before rejecting it out-of-hand. Because it *is* a plus to let friends play together. It *will* take time in the normal course of events before they can get to each other. People that are focused on playing a game together may *not* be willing to subscribe if they are told "play separately and after you get to 40 hours /played which could be a month or two from now you can meet up and group." My focus is not on we core supporters. We core supporters have the enthusiasm and knowldge of the game and patience to cope. My focus is on the "outsiders" that VR needs to attract once the game goes live. These people, Watemper, will have no clue about game details before they get to the character creation screen.
1. The character creation screen or other very visible "read this BEFORE creating a character" guide notes what races can play together and what cannot. As suggested in more detail below.
2. The character creation screen or guide notes what racial starting areas are close enough together that a relatively new character has a decent shot at making the trip and surviving. Thus "If you start the game as a dwarf the following races have starting towns that are relatively convenient to get to. If you and friends want to play new characters together at low level - keep this in mind when picking races".
3. The character creation screen or guide notes what racial starting areas are friendly or hostile. Yes I know many of us think there should be no information given and we should all learn by doing. I am still throwing out ideas to see just what can be done to make the OP's proposal work. Thus "Dwarves are relatively friendly to XYZ and characters of these races can play in each other's starting towns - if they can get to them - relatively easily. Towns of other races may not be friendly and consequences of entering them may be as severe as being killed by the inhabitants. If you and friends want to play new characters together keep this in mind when picking races."
Now I reject the idea of a single use teleport scroll and suggest something akin to what more than one other MMO has done. For the sake of tradition - many of our potential customers have played other MMOs. And for the sake of not having an item in the game that shrinks the world - whatever restrictions may be placed upon its use. But this does precisely what the OP wants albeit in a different way.
4. When entering the game for the first time the character has the choice of starting in any starter town where he or she will be received in a relatively friendly manner. Yes this is how EQ2 did it - not in any way a coincidence. The character is NOT allowed to start in a town where he or she will be killed on sight or cannot deal with the locals. Thus not all races may even get a choice of starting areas. But some may.
Some will say "a rose by any other name" and view this modified proposal just as negatively as what the OP proposed. But it is my best shot at coming up with a more restricted version that at least lets friends start the game together if they pick compatable races. They do not all need to be the same race.
Argument in favor - once the character is in the world there is no, repeat no, ability to travel quickly or safely or conveniently. Granted I prefer seeing a dwarf start in the dwarf town to be exposed to the lore - but if people care more about playing together than anything else - and perhaps many will - is it so bad if a dwarf can be born in another race's town if the races are friendly and can talk to eachother?
Interesting to see your responses. To tell you the truth I don't mind either way, as my friends rarely play the same games as I do anyway and I'm usually tackling content with newly met people - and I love it! But at the same time I like to look at things from other people perspectives. Discussion may bring to the light new questions - such as: Don't you think there should be neutral city - perhaps very hard to reach? Coming back to topic: To avoid dirty-plays said scroll could be usable only till level 5-10 and not taking players to the city, but to relatively safe zone. I agree that initial voyage could be epic in itself, but noone forces anyone to use said scroll and in the game which promotes playing with friends I think the choice where to start (to limited extent) should be available.
Good thoughts dorotea. I'd like to comment on a few points.
((Because it *is* a plus to let friends play together.))
I realize this is the general consensus, and have heard it from Brad that this is his position as well. I'm going to dabble in semantics here a bit and scrutinize the use of the word "let" in your comment. I agree they should LET them, even in KOS races I think there should be a path (at great expence mind you, rarely accomplished) for an Ogre to change his faction, to be accepted, even honored by Elves. I don't they should in any way restrict friends playing together. Here is where I disagree, I don't think it's in the benifit of a social game for them to in anyway AID friends to stay together. My idea of social is to mix things up, bring in new friends. See my first post in this thread, what was to begin with was two players wanting to play together, in my scenario is now a full group once they all hook up. Just my thoughts on this. People keep using "social game" as a reason for them to promote cliques. They shouldn't stop cliques, but they shouldn't go out of there way and add mechanics to support them.
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((is it so bad if a dwarf can be born in another race's town if the races are friendly and can talk to eachother?))
I don't think it would be so bad either, as a matter of fact I think it should go even further and an Ogre could be born with most if not all faction in good standing in the Elf city BUT as a perk of the Progeny system not basic char. creation. This obviously wouldn't relate to the OP's suggestion, but I feel it would be a missed opportunity for the Progeny if they allowed it at first time character creation.
Zorkon - I agree with pretty much everything you say but my intent was narrower than what you discuss.
I was thinking of how often people talk about starting a game together with friends. I was thinking not of any of us but of people seeing a pop-up ad or reference on Steam or review on Massively Overpowered and the like and perhaps a few of them say "that sounds promising let's try it out". But they want to do it together. Or at least one of them isn't interested enough to spend time and money on it except as part of a communal activity.
Thus my focus was not really on letting friends play together. It was on how can we let friends start the game together.
If they are willing to agree on a single race for all of them. No issue and no problem. But how can we expand it to two or three or four races giving the same result?
Manifestly rapid transport between any starter city and any other works for this. If coupled with a complete absence of faction until later in the game so that the starter city locals are miraculously willing to treat anyone of any race equally. I suspected that suggesting such would go over quite poorly - heck I would probably flame *myself* for such a suggestion. So I looked, as is my habit, for a middle road. Based on what the OP suggested but significantly more detailed. As is also my habit.
Pantheon is based upon meaningful travel, not level 1 instant ports to a neutral place. It’s also built upon meaningful faction, meaningful starting areas and identity.
The idea you propose goes all the way against that.
We don’t want a Nexus or a Plane of Knowledge.
dorotea said:3. The character creation screen or guide notes what racial starting areas are friendly or hostile. Yes I know many of us think there should be no information given and we should all learn by doing. I am still throwing out ideas to see just what can be done to make the OP's proposal work. Thus "Dwarves are relatively friendly to XYZ and characters of these races can play in each other's starting towns - if they can get to them - relatively easily. Towns of other races may not be friendly and consequences of entering them may be as severe as being killed by the inhabitants. If you and friends want to play new characters together keep this in mind when picking races."
I like this idea. I don't see it as hand holding, just providing basic information so that players can make an informed, meaningful choice. Then we get to live with the consequences of our choices. No teleport scroll.
I would vote no!
It's been over 20 years since I tried to leave Qeynos and make my way to Freeport. I was terrified, no idea where to go (no maps) my heart was pounding like my life was actually in danger! I died fairly quickly. That is the best part mmorpg's in my opinion. There is actually a sense of accomplishment as well as risk and loss. While I have enjoyed a couple mmorpg's since EQ first came out, none of them seemed the "same". All of the games that followed seemed to be in easy mode -- do what ever you want because there is no way to mess up, or "take the wrong path" ie Take your Dark Elf into the wrong keep and ruin your reputation to the point of never being able to enter your home city again!
Any way, maybe I'm just an old nastalgic fool, but, 20 years later, I remember my fear of the Karanas like it was yesterday.
I don’t want a one time teleport scroll. I agree with the idea that it makes the world small, and yet can send a noob to a KOS city. I like Dorotea‘s idea on info at character creation. The information on which close cities you can venture to safely does not break immersion in any way. It’s knowledge any “real” PC would already know. I also think giving a noob so basic info helps them understand the game more easily and makes them more likely to sub.