Forums » Pantheon Classes

Plate DPS

    • 47 posts
    October 7, 2019 5:04 PM PDT

    Any discussion on why there are no plate DPS classes?

    • 368 posts
    October 8, 2019 11:52 AM PDT

    Plate is typically tank or healer type armor. What did you have in mind?

    • 47 posts
    October 8, 2019 4:17 PM PDT

    Two-handed weapons?  Dual-wield swords? What do you mean?

    • 100 posts
    October 8, 2019 10:02 PM PDT

    Simply because this is a PvE game and the devs want, for now, well defined classes with highly specialised role.
    Someone wearing plate would aborb damage well and high damage would make them able to keep aggro on a single target.
    Therefore it would render tanks class much less desired until you go play harder content where your tank would need active skill to AoE taunt or reduce mitigation further.

    Basically, it doesn't seem to be in their plans right now and they already have quite a list of possible additional classes to add for later.

    Nothing is impossible though!

    • 291 posts
    October 9, 2019 9:41 AM PDT

    What about bards? =p

    • 520 posts
    October 9, 2019 9:44 AM PDT

    Nothing is stopping you from equiping 2-handed sword with a warrior and using only offensive skills if you really want. But logically any weapon master try to stay away from heavier armors which obstruct their movements. On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if in a later expansion we got one.

    • 945 posts
    October 9, 2019 2:02 PM PDT

    I would bet money that the warrior and bard will be able to deal decent damage at end game (albiet not as much as a monk, and hopefully not as much as a rogue, or ranger but more than the Paladin and Cleric (other plate wearers)).  Take away the rogue's backstab (which required positioning) in EQ and the warrior dealt more damage, and before expansions the warrior could do more damage than the ranger and bard.  The monk was the only class that was clearly a melee DPS powerhouse even before expansions.  Dmg was scaled hard off of attributes and gear, and then there were skill caps (specifically the dual wield) and double attack (and later triple attack).  Crippling and crushing strikes were huge bumps for DPS and the biggest bump was riposte that a lot of people overlooked.

    And even though people say that this isn't a carbon copy of EQ, a lot of what I'm seeing appears to be VERY similar mechanics (in my opinion just from watching streams).

    • 52 posts
    August 31, 2020 2:44 PM PDT

    I've always played the role of a damage dealing plate class with a greatsword. I don't enjoy being relegated to a tank simply based on armor. Is this or is it not a viable option upon release? By viable, i'm assuming i wouldn't cripple or annoy my group.

    • 1992 posts
    August 31, 2020 7:41 PM PDT

    Aldie said:

    I've always played the role of a damage dealing plate class with a greatsword. I don't enjoy being relegated to a tank simply based on armor. Is this or is it not a viable option upon release? By viable, i'm assuming i wouldn't cripple or annoy my group.

    Well Pantheon is intended to have strong, well differentiated group roles. There are no Damage classes that wear plate, and no reason to expect one any time soon. VR also isn't really supporting the idea of gearing a particular class differently and trying to fill a different group role. (At the same time, they do talk of seeing what kind of 'emergent game play' the players come up with.)

    As far as what you can DO, that won't be known until the game releases and people start trying to do stuff like gear a Warrior for max damage and see how well he compares to the Damage classes. No one can say how well that will work out because no one has had the opportunity to try it yet. At least, no one who is talking publicly :)

    You may or may not be an acceptable Damage class in non-raid groups and PUGs, but I doubt you will be competitive against fully geared out Damage classes played by hard core, competitive players.

    • 1479 posts
    August 31, 2020 9:26 PM PDT

    Aldie said:

    I've always played the role of a damage dealing plate class with a greatsword. I don't enjoy being relegated to a tank simply based on armor. Is this or is it not a viable option upon release? By viable, i'm assuming i wouldn't cripple or annoy my group.

     

    It's a trend many (including me) have been doing over the last decade and half, It won't be the case in pantheon, at least for now, and I think people have been a bit too used to have the cake and the baker at the same time (dealing high damage and having a high survival due to armor and base Health), while classes with less resillience felt diminished (rogues as an example).

    • 46 posts
    September 1, 2020 1:47 PM PDT

    Look if direlords cant get plate and a dps plate dude comes out i might just lose my ******* mind.........

    • 945 posts
    December 2, 2020 6:55 AM PST

    Thugstomp said:

    Look if direlords cant get plate and a dps plate dude comes out i might just lose my ******* mind.........

    This is literally the primary reason I'm not playing the DL... which is a horrible F****** reason to NOT play a class, but I'd prefer to not "lose my ******** mind" as you said.

    This will inevitably happen "eventually" (unless the game is very short lived).  Hell... the Bard can wear plate, and although people will (correctly) argue "the Bard is a CC class and will never have AS MUCH DPS as a pure DPS class", I guarantee that a well played Bard will out perform a poorly played "DPS" class "in some situations";  Just like an ENC will very likely be able to out DPS a summoner "in some situations".  But the flaw in that arguement is that in a game where actual DPS numbers will not be regularly parsed, it will be more about the gameplay and actual role a "player" fills in a party and not the role of the "class".  i.e. If a party has 3 tank "class" roles, 2 of the "players" will likely be participating in the DPS role for that party... and guess which tanks will be "plate DPS" at that point, and which one will NEVER be plate DPS because they can't wear plate...  even if it is just cosmetic (which it isn't) I'll stick to plate classes for melee or go ranged.

    Add: That is my personal opinion and preference.  I know the monk will be able to take a few hits (like the DL) and be just fine, but I prefer the roleplay/mentality of a plate wearing melee combatant.


    This post was edited by Darch at December 2, 2020 7:01 AM PST
    • 17 posts
    May 17, 2021 12:41 PM PDT

    I personally don't really care if I'm actually wearing plate, but I do wish there were a strength-based melee dps class offered. I.e. I wish there was a class whose main role was "damage" instead of "tank" that had access to dual wielding swords, axes or maces or using a 2h weapon while not being a "fast, dodgy" type. There are a lot of dexterity-based melee dps offerings in this game: Monk, Ranger, Rogue. Yet, there are not any strength-based melee dps, regardless of their armor type. I am speaking, of course, from perceived aeshtetic rather than the actual stats being used to govern the power of their skills (thought I strongly suspect at least Monk and Rogue to use dexterity for their attacks).

    When one thinks Monk, Ranger, or Rogue, they typically think of fast-moving, dodgy type characters or characters that use dexterity from long range and melee, and they always think of characters capable of hiding or feigning death, etc. However, when one thinks of, say, (forgetting about specific MMOs but just the classes in general across all types of RPGs) Berserker, Barbarian or Champion or whatever other name you could think of, you tend to think of a person who is all about brute-force attacks with axes or big, non-dextrous weapons, and they would never bother hiding or feigning death, but rather might recklessly charge into battle, screaming at the top of their lungs. They could be wearing plate, sure, but they could also be wearing leather or cloth or be completely shirtless for the sake of free movement or intimidating an opponent. This is the type of aesthetic I hope eventually gets added to the game.


    This post was edited by Vivere at May 17, 2021 12:46 PM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    May 17, 2021 1:03 PM PDT

    Vivere said:

    I personally don't really care if I'm actually wearing plate, but I do wish there were a strength-based melee dps class offered. I.e. I wish there was a class whose main role was "damage" instead of "tank" that had access to dual wielding swords, axes or maces or using a 2h weapon while not being a "fast, dodgy" type. There are a lot of dexterity-based melee dps offerings in this game: Monk, Ranger, Rogue. Yet, there are not any strength-based melee dps, regardless of their armor type. I am speaking, of course, from perceived aeshtetic rather than the actual stats being used to govern the power of their skills (thought I strongly suspect at least Monk and Rogue to use dexterity for their attacks).

    When one thinks Monk, Ranger, or Rogue, they typically think of fast-moving, dodgy type characters or characters that use dexterity from long range and melee, and they always think of characters capable of hiding or feigning death, etc. However, when one thinks of, say, (forgetting about specific MMOs but just the classes in general across all types of RPGs) Berserker, Barbarian or Champion or whatever other name you could think of, you tend to think of a person who is all about brute-force attacks with axes or big, non-dextrous weapons, and they would never bother hiding or feigning death, but rather might recklessly charge into battle, screaming at the top of their lungs. They could be wearing plate, sure, but they could also be wearing leather or cloth or be completely shirtless for the sake of free movement or intimidating an opponent. This is the type of aesthetic I hope eventually gets added to the game.

    Melee damage will generally be increased by strength, not dex like you imply.  Specific abilities will also gain bonuses based on different stats.  They are trying to make all stats matter for all classes so there are plenty of variables...but in general, str still = melee damage for monk/ranger/rogue etc.

    If you "don't really care if I'm actually wearing plate" and want a str based melee dps class any of the 3 above should suit your needs depending on what you prefer.  But you do actually have to not care about wearing plate.  

    • 945 posts
    May 17, 2021 4:04 PM PDT

    @Vivere, what Philio said is 100% accurate.  If you want a STR based DPS class and don't actually care about armor type, I would recommend Ranger.  Although, like you said, you don't want a "dodgy" melee type, the Ranger will be able to use a log of the weapons and be designed for DPS.  The Monk and Rogue will have limited access to weapons but will also benefit from DPS.

    But I get what you are saying... you are envisioning (like myself) some brute wading into combat, shrugging off weak blows (but not necassarily to protect others) and dishing out some pain... like a viking, a berserker or some knight who's hell bent on vengeance/justice at any cost... to include their own life (i.e. my idea of a Paladin blinded by faith - and therefore has no fear of death).

    • 1992 posts
    May 17, 2021 5:51 PM PDT

    It would certainly help some of those who want the 'Conan' image of their avatar if Ogre's could be a melee DPS. Not to even suggest that it fits the lore VR is going by, just that you can't really get a huge hulk of a melee character with the currently available Races.

    • 17 posts
    May 18, 2021 4:24 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    @Vivere, what Philio said is 100% accurate.  If you want a STR based DPS class and don't actually care about armor type, I would recommend Ranger.  Although, like you said, you don't want a "dodgy" melee type, the Ranger will be able to use a log of the weapons and be designed for DPS.  The Monk and Rogue will have limited access to weapons but will also benefit from DPS.

    But I get what you are saying... you are envisioning (like myself) some brute wading into combat, shrugging off weak blows (but not necassarily to protect others) and dishing out some pain... like a viking, a berserker or some knight who's hell bent on vengeance/justice at any cost... to include their own life (i.e. my idea of a Paladin blinded by faith - and therefore has no fear of death).

     

    Yeah, it's more about the perceived aesthetic than the stats, much like it's more about the perceived aesthetic than the armor as well. Everyone has their favorite class fantasy to play in RPGs. Mine just happens to be the guy that is a maniac bashing people's skulls, pushing them around, screaming and going full offense.

    My favorite class in D&D is Barbarian. My favorite class in WoW vanilla was fury warrior. My favorite in FFXI was... Well, I like way too many in that game, but samurai and warrior both felt cool. Bringing down a giant great axe on an enemy feels impactful.... Visceral. Dual wielding one handers with a furious, whirlwind spinning, cleave fest of carnage is satisfying.

    When you feel like you're winning because you're overpowering your opponent rather than out-maneuvering them, that is my jam. It is a feeling you don't expect to get when you play something called a Rogue or Monk. Maybe Ranger... Sort of, but not really. But Barbarian? Brawler? Berserker? Yup.

    • 1860 posts
    May 18, 2021 9:49 AM PDT

    Vivere said:

    My favorite class in D&D is Barbarian. My favorite class in WoW vanilla was fury warrior. My favorite in FFXI was... Well, I like way too many in that game, but samurai and warrior both felt cool. Bringing down a giant great axe on an enemy feels impactful.... Visceral. Dual wielding one handers with a furious, whirlwind spinning, cleave fest of carnage is satisfying.

    When you feel like you're winning because you're overpowering your opponent rather than out-maneuvering them, that is my jam. It is a feeling you don't expect to get when you play something called a Rogue or Monk. Maybe Ranger... Sort of, but not really. But Barbarian? Brawler? Berserker? Yup.

    That play style will be most similar to a Direlord.  

    You will have to be ok with groups wanting you to tank sometimes but you can still have that playstyle and "feel like you're winning because you're overpowering your opponent rather than out-maneuvering them"

    You will just have to be ok with not focusing on dps meters because, lets face it, a high dps character that can also withstand a lot of damage is just a poorly designed class....imho.  DL is a chain class.  They are closest class in pantheon to a barbarian/berzerker type character.

    Most people seem to expect the DL to out damage the other tank classes (maybe with the exception of paly vs undead).

     


    This post was edited by philo at May 18, 2021 10:03 AM PDT
    • 17 posts
    May 18, 2021 12:26 PM PDT

    Yeah, I know about Dire Lord. I would prefer the aesthetic to be available in DPS form with more susceptibility to damage, though. That's what I'm hoping for being added later.

    In the mean time, I've contemplated playing one of the tanks as an off tank that fully specializes all my abilities and gear into DPS but can save the tank when needed, but that hinges upon the flexibility of the character customization to allow me to do at least mildly respectable damage even though I won't do as much damage as the actual damage dealing classes. Also, if I were to go down this route, Dire Lord has a problem with off tanking because their taunt isn't snap aggro, so saving the tank would have to be premeditated by several seconds, which isn't conducive to fast reaction to the tank receiving a big crit or something.

    That's what makes me wonder about how good the Warrior's damage potential might be. They will have a snap aggro taunt and access to a lot of weapons. So I'm wondering if they can be specialized in damage. I didn't really play EverQuest extensively, but I've heard that warriors in that game were actually capable of doing so, and I know this game at least takes some heavy inspiration from that game, so I guess we'll see.


    This post was edited by Vivere at May 18, 2021 4:30 PM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    May 18, 2021 12:35 PM PDT

    Vivere said:

     I've contemplated playing one of the tanks as an off tank that fully specializes all my abilities and gear into DPS but can save the tank when needed, but that hinges upon the flexibility of the character customization to allow me to do at least mildly respectable damage even though I won't do as much damage as the actual damage dealing classes. Also, if I were to go down this route, Dire Lord has a problem with off tanking because they're taunt isn't snap aggro, so saving the tank would have to be premeditated by several seconds, which isn't conducive to fast reaction to the tank receiving a big crit or something.

    That's what makes me wonder about how good the Warrior's damage potential might be. They will have a snap aggro taunt and access to a lot of weapons. So I'm wondering if they can be specialized in damage. I didn't really play EverQuest extensively, but I've heard that warriors in that game were actually capable of doing so, and I know this game at least takes some heavy inspiration from that game, so I guess we'll see.



    It seems like the warriors damage potential is pretty low.

    At one point, before they changed the class roles on the website to only be tank/healer/damage/support, the monk was listed as "offtank".  They were the only class with the offtank listing.

    I get it's not exactly the playstyle you are looking for but if your focus is damage with the ability to offtank that might be a viable choice.

    • 1992 posts
    May 18, 2021 1:18 PM PDT

    Vivere said: Dire Lord has a problem with off tanking because they're taunt isn't snap aggro, so saving the tank would have to be premeditated by several seconds, which isn't conducive to fast reaction to the tank receiving a big crit or something.

    You are correct, so far as we currently know. But something I've been wondering about - as a future DL - is the DL's need for a Rescue. Specifically an ability which forces an enemy to immediately focus it's attacks on me, for a short time or perhaps a specific number of attacks. There is always the possibility of a DPS or Healer pulling agro off the Tank, and Rescues have been essential to me in the past when playing Tank.

    Both Warrior and Paladin have a Rescue, and what we have learned about DL so far doesn't convince me that 'Provoking Phantoms' is going to completely eliminate the need for one. Which leads me to hope and expect that VR just hasn't revealed the DL's Rescue yet.

    • 1860 posts
    May 18, 2021 1:34 PM PDT

    I was under the impression that was by design joth.  Other tanks can gain aggro more quickly but DL has a higher ceiling.  So, given enough time, the DL will be the hardest to pull aggro from.

    • 17 posts
    May 18, 2021 4:26 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    something I've been wondering about - as a future DL - is the DL's need for a Rescue.

    That's a good point that I hadn't considered. Any time I played a tank in an MMO in the past, it was always really cool to have some kind of Cover type ability to temporarily take damage for a different player. If there were something like that, it could work with Dire Lord. But, if the DPS is low enough that the desire to bring me would hinge on my ability to also contribute via off-tanking, which I'm sure it would be, then I would need to be careful that whatever class I chose truly had the capability to do both. I don't want to be a hindrance to my team. I just want to enjoy my own type of playstyle. I'm looking forward to learning more about it, that's for sure!

    • 2752 posts
    May 18, 2021 4:47 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    You are correct, so far as we currently know. But something I've been wondering about - as a future DL - is the DL's need for a Rescue. 

    Not the same as a taunt (much more unique IMO), they did have in the past: 

    Dire Mark - Mark a member of your group or raid. Whenever that player takes damage, 25% of the damage will be redirected to you. (10 second duration)

    Now depending on how masteries or higher level scrolls of this work it could go as far as to intercept much more if not all incoming damage for that member. 

    • 1992 posts
    May 18, 2021 4:59 PM PDT

    philo said:

    I was under the impression that was by design joth.  Other tanks can gain aggro more quickly but DL has a higher ceiling.  So, given enough time, the DL will be the hardest to pull aggro from.

    I've heard that description of Provoking Phantoms for sure. I'm even looking forward to it. But "hardest" to pull agro from isn't the same as "impossible" to pull it from. So presently I have 3 concerns:

    1. IMO It doesn't seem like VR would make a Tank whose 'agro lock' (my term) can absolutely NOT be broken after a certain point in the combat, even by the most highly skilled, well geared Wizard going all out. That scenario by itself seems OP to me.

    2. That little phrase "given enough time". No matter how it is tweaked, there is bound to be a period at the start of combat when agro can be pulled off the Tank. IMO not having a single Rescue available  is going to be a serious drawback. Not just for the DL but for the DPS Classes who have to be even more careful with a DL than with the other Tanks who CAN rescue them from a one-shot death if they mess up.

    3. Even with the help of a good CC in the group, I haven't seen anything to suggest that a DL Tank will, in a majority of combat situations, have NO need to switch offensive targets during the course of a combat encounter. In the past I've regularly had to pick up newly arriving adds while tanking, get them agro-ed on me, then switch target back to finish off the one we started on. I know the CC role will change this. The question is How Much?

    The Provoking Phantoms ability description is vague enough to argue interpretation, but it says that attacking a different target removes the effect from your mob. Being a duration based effect, the strong implication to me is that re-targeting that 1st mob will mean the PP affect gets reset back to starting level.

     

    It is certainly possible that VR has made a more unique Tanking scenario than I've so far imagined, and that DL will be successful without a single rescue ability. I just haven't seen evidence that the DL is quite THAT unique. Time will tell, no doubt. But until I DO see something surprising, I will continue to expect a Rescue ability LoL.