stellarmind said:Zorkon said:I'm sure glad all this "DKP" "Loot rules this" and "Loot rules that" bickering has one thing pretty much uniformly agreed opon.
It's only a problem with Raiding Guilds.
Now if VR, was to concentrate on creating a group centric game they could pretty much ignore this thread and let all the sharks eat each other!
just like the pvpers >=D muahhahahahahahahahhaah!
There ya go!
Thinking outside the box...
As soon as the boss drops, the entire raid gets flagged PVP,
Now... who REALLY wants that loot!!!
I am trying to remember exactly which interview this was in, but I recall Aradune once was answering a question about how Guild management tools would work in game and he made a comment about the idea of them adding a Raid loot point system like DPK or epgp right into the guild tool itself to help guilds manage their raid loot. Of course he didn't elaborate and I'm sure it was just an idea at the time, but he was trying to explain that they want to make Guild and Raid management as user friendly as possible.
Of course Raid loot will always be different from guild to guild but it might be cool if they have built in tools to help people manage it. Even if it's just a way for players to see a history of which items a player has looted from Raids and when.
I have been a member of guilds with both balanced and imbalanced dkp systems (read as good and bad).
Many of the issues people are stating about dkp systems is because the system either wasnt a 0 sum system or was an imbalanced 0 sum system.
Finding a guild with a well run, well balanced/implemented dkp system might be somewhat difficult but I have found it to be by far the most fair way to distribute loot for both newer guild members and long time members. In a well balanced 0 sum system new members move up quickly and are able to acquire loot because there is not point inflation within the system that constantly rewards the long time members.
dorotea said:This has been debated extensively by the community. Not specifically for raids but more generally. There was far from a consensus.
For items that bound to the character upon pick-up I believe there was significant support for a need/greed roll. Since no one that didn't need it could get much value out of it. With the caveat that if it could be disassembled into something of real value that might change some opinions. For items that could be traded to other players - there was a clear divergence of views with some feeling the same way but many feeling that if an item could be sold for a large amount of coin it was only fair that all characters would have an equal shot at getting it.
There was disagreement too on how the loot settings should be determined. Few disagreed with the idea that the group should have an option for master looter. Less were comfortable with this being unilaterally decided by the group leader.
VR, as on many issues, let us talk but did not say much other than to play nice children when it got too heated. Perhaps different systems will be tested in alpha and beta.
Raid scenario is much more different. I think you are thinking about your standard pug group. Although I can see that being the case in some pug raids.
@OP
In terms of raiding it depends on the guild. You have the DKP system, which is basically a point system of varying degrees that all involve when a raid boss is killed you get a certain amount of points if you participated in the kill. You can use these points to bid for items. Blind dkp is my favorite dkp system. Then you have loot council, which is a dictatorship in a way, where the guild leader and officers decided who gets it, most of the time it's them, and that is how it usually goes. Pug raids usually need/greed on no drops and everyone needs on drops you can sell.
((Raid scenario is much more different. I think you are thinking about your standard pug group. Although I can see that being the case in some pug raids.))
Watemper you are exactly right. When I read the OP it seemed to me to focus on built in looting systems provided by the game. I responded accordingly. To me whatever looting system a *guild* adopts is up to the guild and will *not* be built in to the game. Not in terms of how raids and groups work in Pantheon at least. Loot rules like DKP may or may not be included in guild management pieces of the game.
Zorkon - close but no cigar in adapting what Stellarmind said. Only those that roll for the loot get flagged for pvp.
Several people - yes my discussion of why DKP was not the *only* valid system for a guild to use was based on what may have been a poor version of DKP. One used well before refinements were added. I did mention my raid guild experience was outdated. But the bottom line is the same - there are many possible systems for a raid guild to use and not every raid guild does or should use any version of DKP.
dorotea said:Zorkon - close but no cigar in adapting what Stellarmind said. Only those that roll for the loot get flagged for pvp.
Noooo,
Remember the promo "Bring Friends"? A smart player would be back channel recruiting allies all throughout the raid to help him "win the loot" at the end.
This thread definitely caught steam lol. Ya, you guys are right it is definitely to early to speculate and unfortunately I guess we just have to wait until more game mechanics are known. I was just trying to see if Pantheon stated if they are going to go more with the current retail WoW raid loot where it is all individual and each raider gets their own loot item, be it an armor piece or maybe just to gold, etc. In individual loot there is no need for dkp or master looter or anything like that since everyone gets some sort of RNG based loot.
Since Pantheon seems to be a spirit animal of old school EQ, my guess is that they will go the route of EQ or current WoW Classic where there is a Master Looter, generally the raid leader, and the Master Looter would pass the loot to the raid members.
I saw a lot of people mention DKP. That is definitely one option, but DKP is not used very much these days, a Loot Council is generally used mostly it seems with the current raiding of WoW Classic. There are lots of ways like you all mentioned, DKP, Loot Council, EGPG, etc. I guess my thread is a bit pre mature at the moment.
I don't think anything has been said about loot rules, however, for Raid loot, in particular, I'm sure loot rules will be left up for the raid leader/guild leader to decide.
Raid loot has always worked differently from traditional group loot. Some guilds distribute loot based on DKP, some use a loot council, and some guilds do it with the normal need before greed mindset. When something drops that no one needs the guild/raid leader may decide to open greed for it or sell the item and place the funds in the guild bank for raid supplies/ repairs. It all depends on the person in charge and what is needed at the time. These are questions that a player should ask upon entering a guild if they are interested in raiding.
From what has been shown in streams there doesn't appear to be a strict rolling system in place that automatically prompts players to roll on loot. On the same note personal loot also doesn't appear to be a thing, which is a good thing in my honest opinion. I think that leaving players to distribute loot among themselves is a good design because it puts that power into the players hands. The only downside is that yes you can and probably will encounter loot ninjas along the way.
There really doesn't need to be anything added in game to handle loot, raid or group. If you don't like how your guild is handling the loot, leave and find a guild that does. If you don't like how the group is handling loot, leave and find another group. If you join a group, ask how loot is being handled and decide if you want to stay. This is how I approach loot, I really don't expect any group or raid I join to do it my way, unless I form the group.