Hello everyone! I know Pantheon is going for the old school EQ/WoW Classic vibe, so I was wondering if it has been stated anywhere on how they will handle raid loot? Will it be individual loot or will there be a Master Looter option and loot can be handed out? In regards to normal adventure parties, will there be group settings to pop up a Need/Greed roll for items over a certain threshold, like blue, etc?
This has been debated extensively by the community. Not specifically for raids but more generally. There was far from a consensus.
For items that bound to the character upon pick-up I believe there was significant support for a need/greed roll. Since no one that didn't need it could get much value out of it. With the caveat that if it could be disassembled into something of real value that might change some opinions. For items that could be traded to other players - there was a clear divergence of views with some feeling the same way but many feeling that if an item could be sold for a large amount of coin it was only fair that all characters would have an equal shot at getting it.
There was disagreement too on how the loot settings should be determined. Few disagreed with the idea that the group should have an option for master looter. Less were comfortable with this being unilaterally decided by the group leader.
VR, as on many issues, let us talk but did not say much other than to play nice children when it got too heated. Perhaps different systems will be tested in alpha and beta.
Options are key along with transparency.
The group leader sets the rules. The chosen rule is shown in the UI when you join a group. If you don't like it, you persuade the leader or you leave the group. Simple.
In my personal opinion, the only truly fair and safe rule is automatic (once someone loots a corpse) random allocation.
Greed/Pass is a nice-to-have option, but only so people can express that they *don't* need and are happy for others to have it but would sell it, or they don't want it even to sell. The default is Need. Everyone needs treasure, whether to sell, give to an alt or a friend or use themselves. You don't deserve the loot just because you can use it.
If you don't do it that way, you will never get people to go to places unless there is something there they can use. There will be many places, I'm sure, that don't have loot that drops evenly to all classes.
Details on raids, especially given that raids are more of an Alpha thing won't be known just yet. Especially since they require a hefty population to best replicate an organic approach for feedback and then tuning. File this question for mid to late Alpha when we have a concrete idea.
((Greed/Pass is a nice-to-have option, but only so people can express that they *don't* need and are happy for others to have it but would sell it, or they don't want it even to sell. The default is Need. Everyone needs treasure, whether to sell, give to an alt or a friend or use themselves. You don't deserve the loot just because you can use it.))
I am very comfortable after many years with the traditional need/greed system. Those that can actually use it for the character in the raid are the ones to roll for it.
But over years of this issue being debated I have reluctantly come around to disposalist's view. Not because I think it is inherently better but because there is *some* logic to it and I think more and more over the years the average player assumes that "need" means the same thing as "worth something" since "we all need money".
With a very strong objection to having any item that binds on pickup go to anyone in the group randomly. If it cannot be sold to other players or broken down into something valuable, characters that can use it should get priority over the idiot that may roll for it just to sell it to a NPC merchant for 10 copper pieces.
We always did NBG /rand 100, but also implemented a round robin rule for junk or stuff noone needed/wanted.
All of this was handled without a fancy UI. It was done by communicating with your group at the onset of the group formation or after the first kill.
Lets be honest when it comes to loot their will never be a right answer, or even a correct one, if you go random and someone has gotten no loot but done 20 raids that doesn't seem right, as to if someone only did 2 raids and got 2 items, but if you go dkp and the person who did 20 raids keeps the player that only has done 2 raids can feel underwhelming, honestly i think the ML making people roll on the specific loot is the best way to solve everything but than you'll need a trustworthy ML, i can even say I've found Loot Council to be nothin but corrputed and 5x worst than dkp, unless if they are completely unbiased which i find that being very hard to tihnk they would be at all times, at least with the /roll system its in game and the chances to win is Equal to all the other that use that system.
dorotea said:((Greed/Pass is a nice-to-have option, but only so people can express that they *don't* need and are happy for others to have it but would sell it, or they don't want it even to sell. The default is Need. Everyone needs treasure, whether to sell, give to an alt or a friend or use themselves. You don't deserve the loot just because you can use it.))
I am very comfortable after many years with the traditional need/greed system. Those that can actually use it for the character in the raid are the ones to roll for it.
But over years of this issue being debated I have reluctantly come around to disposalist's view. Not because I think it is inherently better but because there is *some* logic to it and I think more and more over the years the average player assumes that "need" means the same thing as "worth something" since "we all need money".
With a very strong objection to having any item that binds on pickup go to anyone in the group randomly. If it cannot be sold to other players or broken down into something valuable, characters that can use it should get priority over the idiot that may roll for it just to sell it to a NPC merchant for 10 copper pieces.
I came around to it reluctantly too. I used to think there must be a better/fairer way, but actually, the random roll is the only utterly impartial fairest way.
I do find that most groups in most games do however use the Need/Greed 'nicely'. If people want to allow someone who needs it more to take it they just tap Greed or even Pass - I know I do. You occasionally get people who hit Need for everything, but that just means others start doing the same thing and then barter for who actually Needs it (and do not favour the greedy person).
It generally works out ok and pleasantly, but the default really has to be the sometimes harsh but ultimately fair RNG.
The OP's question was specifically about raid loot, not group loot. Random and greed works only for pickup groups.
(and pickup raids, but those never work well in higher tiers...)
For guild raids, DKP is the only practical way in the long term. I would be surprised if they build a DKP system into the game itself, it will most likely be up to each guild to organize it in some way.
Keno Monster said:We pretty much don't know anything about anything.
that's an amusing paradox. the realization that i know nothing feeds my hunger to know something, therefore i know things, but feel that i do not.
there's a great philosphy called hermeticism(not to be confused with hermitism)
i'd recommend the kybalion for those interested in headaches regarding thought processing :D
Aethor said:The OP's question was specifically about raid loot, not group loot. Random and greed works only for pickup groups.
(and pickup raids, but those never work well in higher tiers...)
For guild raids, DKP is the only practical way in the long term. I would be surprised if they build a DKP system into the game itself, it will most likely be up to each guild to organize it in some way.
From what I remember, I respectfully disagree. Fair is fair and random is fair.
DKP is horribly depressing for people new to a guild. You could spend months raiding and have no chance whatsoever of getting anything interesting. It also wasn't particularly fair, since it was very easy for guilds to play favourites, even in quite robust DKP systems.
I wasn't a big raider, so correct me if I'm wrong, but DKP was all about rewarding time spent raiding and about making sure a guild was equipped well for future raids?
How is this not achieved by RNG? Someone who raids longer has more chance of getting what they want/need. If someone wins an item that is needed elsewhere in the guild, the guild can 'barter' for it by paying them off or swapping for an item they need.
The worst that could happen is someone new to the guild takes an item and leaves. But did they not earn the chance at that item? Was it not fair? Also it doesn't speak well of a guild that accepts new members that easily or players don't value over a raid drop.
As I say, I wasn't a big raider and I wasn't very 'high up' in the guild, but it seems to me using DKP as some kind of 'raid currency' doesn't really improve much on RNG and is offputting and open to abuses and misuses.
Please do illuminate me, though, if you were heavily involved in guild raiding. I'm not being sarcastic, I would love to learn what problems DKP fixed.
Aethor said:The OP's question was specifically about raid loot, not group loot. Random and greed works only for pickup groups.
(and pickup raids, but those never work well in higher tiers...)
For guild raids, DKP is the only practical way in the long term. I would be surprised if they build a DKP system into the game itself, it will most likely be up to each guild to organize it in some way.
DKP is the only practical way to you, that doesnt mean it is the only way that actually works, /roll of loot works by far more equalc for one after some people get comfortable with their gear some people hold on to dkp and just wait on the next big item and pretty much guarantee the item to him, and things should never be like that, and yes after a certain amount of time the GL could chop peoples dkp but that cuases a whole other problem within the guild ive seen people gquit simply becuase it happened, but with the /roll it is always fair and have it to where if you win a roll you cant roll anymore til either in the next raid or week that all depends on you and has nothing to due with the system itself. The /roll system imho is the best way to sort gear, at least you feel like you had a chance to get it, and i alrdy know some people are going to disagree with this but that goes right back into what i said before with their is never a correct or right way to sort loot, every system will rub somebody the wrong way, so ultimately pick one, and stick with it and gain the trust of your guild members and don't make exceptions during loot, and if you decide to change speak to your guild in chat and have them know why you are changing your mind that way it gets smoothed over and they dont become surprised with it, becuase in a sense all loot rules can work and have worked before with the right people doing it, some are harder to pull off than others, but that doesnt actually mean it doesnt work.
disposalist said:Aethor said:The OP's question was specifically about raid loot, not group loot. Random and greed works only for pickup groups.
(and pickup raids, but those never work well in higher tiers...)
For guild raids, DKP is the only practical way in the long term. I would be surprised if they build a DKP system into the game itself, it will most likely be up to each guild to organize it in some way.
From what I remember, I respectfully disagree. Fair is fair and random is fair.
DKP is horribly depressing for people new to a guild. You could spend months raiding and have no chance whatsoever of getting anything interesting. It also wasn't particularly fair, since it was very easy for guilds to play favourites, even in quite robust DKP systems.
I wasn't a big raider, so correct me if I'm wrong, but DKP was all about rewarding time spent raiding and about making sure a guild was equipped well for future raids?
How is this not achieved by RNG? Someone who raids longer has more chance of getting what they want/need. If someone wins an item that is needed elsewhere in the guild, the guild can 'barter' for it by paying them off or swapping for an item they need.
The worst that could happen is someone new to the guild takes an item and leaves. But did they not earn the chance at that item? Was it not fair? Also it doesn't speak well of a guild that accepts new members that easily or players don't value over a raid drop.
As I say, I wasn't a big raider and I wasn't very 'high up' in the guild, but it seems to me using DKP as some kind of 'raid currency' doesn't really improve much on RNG and is offputting and open to abuses and misuses.
Please do illuminate me, though, if you were heavily involved in guild raiding. I'm not being sarcastic, I would love to learn what problems DKP fixed.
dkp i would say is an emergent system. it's usually for hardcore raids that will funnel and priortize items on core members(like the main tank and healers). it's a result of organizations wanting to progress.
i remember when wow first came out, a new guild member got lucky on rolls, putting him in main tank status and just flat out left the guild hindering progression as a whole. (i think we had 7 or 8 grand marshals at the time so dps wasn't the issue)
that's the main reason why we adopted dkp.
i would say dkp isn't a problem, it's a matter of how it's used.
stellarmind said:disposalist said:Aethor said:The OP's question was specifically about raid loot, not group loot. Random and greed works only for pickup groups.
(and pickup raids, but those never work well in higher tiers...)
For guild raids, DKP is the only practical way in the long term. I would be surprised if they build a DKP system into the game itself, it will most likely be up to each guild to organize it in some way.
From what I remember, I respectfully disagree. Fair is fair and random is fair.
DKP is horribly depressing for people new to a guild. You could spend months raiding and have no chance whatsoever of getting anything interesting. It also wasn't particularly fair, since it was very easy for guilds to play favourites, even in quite robust DKP systems.
I wasn't a big raider, so correct me if I'm wrong, but DKP was all about rewarding time spent raiding and about making sure a guild was equipped well for future raids?
How is this not achieved by RNG? Someone who raids longer has more chance of getting what they want/need. If someone wins an item that is needed elsewhere in the guild, the guild can 'barter' for it by paying them off or swapping for an item they need.
The worst that could happen is someone new to the guild takes an item and leaves. But did they not earn the chance at that item? Was it not fair? Also it doesn't speak well of a guild that accepts new members that easily or players don't value over a raid drop.
As I say, I wasn't a big raider and I wasn't very 'high up' in the guild, but it seems to me using DKP as some kind of 'raid currency' doesn't really improve much on RNG and is offputting and open to abuses and misuses.
Please do illuminate me, though, if you were heavily involved in guild raiding. I'm not being sarcastic, I would love to learn what problems DKP fixed.
dkp i would say is an emergent system. it's usually for hardcore raids that will funnel and priortize items on core members(like the main tank and healers). it's a result of organizations wanting to progress.
i remember when wow first came out, a new guild member got lucky on rolls, putting him in main tank status and just flat out left the guild hindering progression as a whole. (i think we had 7 or 8 grand marshals at the time so dps wasn't the issue)
that's the main reason why we adopted dkp.
i would say dkp isn't a problem, it's a matter of how it's used.
You don't need dkp to priotize tanks and healers, you simply justify it as a healer/tank item and have other them roll on it, or if its a new raid you could simply have your guild understand before the raid drops that most of the gear that can support your tanks/healers will be round robin or whatever, and also the most hardcore guild i have actually been apart of didnt even use dkp simply becuase it wasnt needed.
Riahuf22 said:You don't need dkp to priotize tanks and healers, you simply justify it as a healer/tank item and have other them roll on it, or if its a new raid you could simply have your guild understand before the raid drops that most of the gear that can support your tanks/healers will be round robin or whatever, and also the most hardcore guild i have actually been apart of didnt even use dkp simply becuase it wasnt needed.
that's up to the guild and guild members/raids/parties to decide XD i could care less. it doesn't hurt to have options on how to handle loot.
((For guild raids, DKP is the only practical way in the long term))
You may well have more experience than I do - I have been in more than one raiding guild and most used some version of DKP but that was a while ago.
DKP rewards people that raid a lot and this is not irrational - this is the core of the guild. It is what the guild *wants*. So I am not saying DKP is a bad system but I will say it is far from the only system. I will also say it has disadvantages as well as advantages.
Take three things a guild probably wants.
1. Encourage those that participate a lot in guild activies, and reward them. DKP does this well. A smaller guild can be more personal - a large guild probably wants a system in place.
2. Encourage people to join the guild and stay in the guild. Few guilds keep all of the same people for years - even if they have the size they want replacements will be needed. DKP does encourage people to stay - the longer you are in the closer to the top of the food chain you get. But DKP is not much of an incentive for someone to join and instantly be at the bottom without the chance for an occasional lucky roll.
3. Help gear up the guild for high difficulty raids. DKP helps those that are already well geared to marginally get better by filling in that last one or two slots. It makes it harder for those with mediocre gear because the more experienced people may get the lion's share of the drops even when these are a small improvement for them though they would have been a huge improvement for others. So it is a matter of whether the guild is trying to maximize gear for the top 10 people so they can do a new raid, or whether it wants to maximize the number of people that meet minimal standards so the guild can bring more people to the dance or have a wider variety of back-ups.
In other words - DKP meets the needs of some guilds but maybe not those of others and is clearly not the only approach.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:You don't need dkp to priotize tanks and healers, you simply justify it as a healer/tank item and have other them roll on it, or if its a new raid you could simply have your guild understand before the raid drops that most of the gear that can support your tanks/healers will be round robin or whatever, and also the most hardcore guild i have actually been apart of didnt even use dkp simply becuase it wasnt needed.
that's up to the guild and guild members/raids/parties to decide XD i could care less. it doesn't hurt to have options on how to handle loot.
didn't say their was as in a previous statement i said all can work with the right people doing it, im just tired of hearing people defend dkp like it the best system out there, when they probably honestly havent tried many of the others, to me all dkp really is an easy and lazy way for a guild to contribute gear without having to really do anything ever.
Riahuf22 said:didn't say their was as in a previous statement i said all can work with the right people doing it, im just tired of hearing people defend dkp like it the best system out there, when they probably honestly havent tried many of the others, to me all dkp really is an easy and lazy way for a guild to contribute gear without having to really do anything ever.
eh it's fine ^.^ everyone has different experiences with dkp. i'm merely stating that dkp is a looting option that can be considered. if it wasn't we wouldn't even be discussing dkp right now.
I know I've heard it said in streams that there will be a variety of loot rules that a group can choose from.
Raids being predominantly a Guild activity, this from the FAQs is also promising:
12.1 Question: Will the in-game guild functions include raid attendance tracking for guild events? Will there be any tie-in with loot distribution to allow a raid leader to distribute loot through the guild tool using the aforementioned tracking systems?
Answer: Yes, pretty much all of that and more.
There is a misconception here that DKP allows people who were longer in the guild to be "closer to the top of the food chain".
This happens in a bad DKP system. The fact that it can be made in a bad way does not mean that DKP always works that way.
Specifically, this happens if a DKP system has accumulation of DKP, that is, if over time it gives out more DKP to guild members than it takes back for items looted. Then those who are longer in the guild always have more DKP than new members, and by this I mean more than their raid attendance would justify.
This is equivalent to money printing in real world, and is as bad.
In order to counter this, additional DKP rules were invented, the most correct is Zero-Sum DKP, where the amount of points given for attendance comes from points taken for items, so the sum is zero and thus the DKP accumulation is zero.
An additional rule can be made (I made it when I moved from EQ to WoW and formed a guild there) where part of DKP taken for item looting is saved by the guild (as a sort of "tax") and then given on those raids that naturally don't result in items, yet are critical for progression of the guild (such as zone keys, or first/learning attempts at a raid boss).
Aethor said:There is a misconception here that DKP allows people who were longer in the guild to be "closer to the top of the food chain".
This happens in a bad DKP system. The fact that it can be made in a bad way does not mean that DKP always works that way.
Specifically, this happens if a DKP system has accumulation of DKP, that is, if over time it gives out more DKP to guild members than it takes back for items looted. Then those who are longer in the guild always have more DKP than new members, and by this I mean more than their raid attendance would justify.
This is equivalent to money printing in real world, and is as bad.
In order to counter this, additional DKP rules were invented, the most correct is Zero-Sum DKP, where the amount of points given for attendance comes from points taken for items, so the sum is zero and thus the DKP accumulation is zero.
An additional rule can be made (I made it when I moved from EQ to WoW and formed a guild there) where part of DKP taken for item looting is saved by the guild (as a sort of "tax") and then given on those raids that naturally don't result in items, yet are critical for progression of the guild (such as zone keys, or first/learning attempts at a raid boss).
we had used a maximum accumilation cap of dkp in addition to the dkp degrading. so it's not like we could horde it.
i guess in the situation my guild was in(2005-2006?), dkp was used to protect the interests of the guild. it's not like building a guild was easy back then. besides, the times were different back then in wow. there was no group finder, no raid finder. there was a lot of politics involved with pvp back then too. so naturally it was in everyones best interest to treat and be treated fairly. repuatation amongst the community was sacred. how the times have changed.
I'm sure glad all this "DKP" "Loot rules this" and "Loot rules that" bickering has one thing pretty much uniformly agreed opon.
It's only a problem with Raiding Guilds.
Now if VR, was to concentrate on creating a group centric game they could pretty much ignore this thread and let all the sharks eat each other!
Zorkon said:I'm sure glad all this "DKP" "Loot rules this" and "Loot rules that" bickering has one thing pretty much uniformly agreed opon.
It's only a problem with Raiding Guilds.
Now if VR, was to concentrate on creating a group centric game they could pretty much ignore this thread and let all the sharks eat each other!
just like the pvpers >=D muahhahahahahahahahhaah!