wut where's the link uwudune time to dig....
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/186/pantheon-pv-p-launch-vs-post-launch
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/187/very-fast-even-for-me-commentary-on-instancing
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/188/much-to-do-about-pantheon-cco-update
here's the link for the lazy folks such as myself :D
hoho~ just one server with all the pvpers on it? this is going to be great >=D
it's great to know there is a dedicated team for pvp stuff being built on the strong pve foundations.
1. i've been curious to see whether pvp will be faction based or a flagging ffa?(a bit confused with the bit where pvpers work on factions but open world pvp?)
the preferred system would be a flagging ffa since sometimes there are players in my own faction i would have liked to kill for disrupting my rotation after a polite warning(world of warcraft). uhh flagging ffa would be where every player is neutral towards each other. an aggressor can flag to initiate hostilities allow him to attack players outside of party or guild, but in turn anyone can attack the agressor/s back.(black desert online)
2. will there be a botb type ladder deal except in a party format?
3. is the toxic climate really a pvp climate that we have to acclimate with?(satire)
thank you for addressing a lot of concerns in regards to pvp. it's been for taboo to talk about on the forums XD it is nice to know that even though pvpers are savages, overlord uwudune sees value and appreciates that most operate under an unwritten code of conduct(gentleman's agreement?)
@lanier twas my pleasure sir :D
Aradune said:Posted 2 dev diaries last night. Would love to hear your opinions and thoughts.
thanks,
-Aradune
@Aradune Thank you so much for the dev diaries. I really enjoyed reading them. It's fascinating to hear the thought process behind why certain desisions are being made for Pantheon and to learn more details how certain mechanics will work.
I'm not a PvPer but reading how you are approaching intigrating it piques my interest. @Stellarmind Maybe you would be willing to teach me ropes?
As content denial is one of my biggest concerns, reading how you will be approaching some of it goes a long way to alleviate my fears.
Thorndeep said:Aradune said:Posted 2 dev diaries last night. Would love to hear your opinions and thoughts.
thanks,
-Aradune
@Aradune Thank you so much for the dev diaries. I really enjoyed reading them. It's fascinating to hear the thought process behind why certain desisions are being made for Pantheon and to learn more details how certain mechanics will work.
I'm not a PvPer but reading how you are approaching intigrating it piques my interest. @Stellarmind Maybe you would be willing to teach me ropes?
As content denial is one of my biggest concerns, reading how you will be approaching some of it goes a long way to alleviate my fears.
(basics to pvp as i know it)
1. in order to win, a pvper must accept losing.
losing is core to any pvper. it provides a means to learn from mistakes, master ourselves and adapt to an opponent.(the mind)
2. keybinds is a must for a pvper.
this ties into execution and being able to act and react as fast and accurate as possible.(the body)
3. there is only so much one player can do.
the existence of pvp is vast and wide. there are many styles and culture for pvp so pick the one that fits. ultimately communication, coordination and cooporation is key. (the soul)
we can talk more in depth on discord if interested XD shoot me a message with a handle kk i gotta catch a ride home ^_^
There are two threads on these diaries - my comments on instancing are in the other one. I will focus on pvp now.
I have spent a year on a pvp server - in DAOC - far less than many of us but I am not purely a pve player though that is my preference.
What would attract me to a pvp server here? Possibly features that someone that *prefers* pvp to pve would not like. In which case I suggest that my opinions be ignored - focus on a ruleset that will make hardcore pvp players happy. I definitely believe that any opinions Stellarmind has on this topic are more valuable than mine.
1. Make killing of a player that cannot possibly represent a challenge either impossible or something with negative consequences. Level 40s camping a level 10 areas to one-shot the denizens is not an endearing feature. Notwithstanding that it can generate desirable action if their level 40 friends and guildmates respond. My favorite ruleset flat-out prevented an attack on someone X levels below the attacker unless the lower level attacked or healed or buffed or otherwise gave up the immunity. Alternatively - many games have a variety of penalties for killing someone that much lower. As a level 10 I may accept dying in even a remotely fair fight. If I cannot deal with frequently losing I do not belong on the server. But being one-shot by someone enormously higher level goes beyond that.
2. If there is any way to involve faction or race - as in DAOC - I am not the only one that feels it is a huge improvement. One race against the others - out of self-preservation or imperial aggression doesn't matter - at least gives a cause bigger than bloodlust to fight for. And with so many races it doesn't eliminate that many potential murder victims.
philo said:I'm curious how Brad or other VR members respond to those of us who think that having :
NPCs only you and your group/guild can communicate with. Other players cannot bother them.
Is not actually an open world game?
Locking special mobs does not = on the rails game
Pantheon is most definitely open world.
@Philo
Whether a game is open world or not is entirely subjective. One feature used in moderation doesn't turn an open world game into a theme park game. You can have instancing and many other theme park features in an open world game. The final result needs to be viewed as a whole to determine whether it feels open world or feels like a theme park.
I actually agree with your sentiment, but I think if you had said "A game that has feature X is less of an open world game as a result of said feature", then I would be completely agree. However, I don't think that means you shouldn't use the feature. I think theme park features are fine in specific cases if the game still feels like an open world at the end of the day.
I would really like to see this system in action though. There are some applications I think would work just fine and others that would really make the world feel fake and/or closed off. It just depends on how its done.
Aradune said:Posted 2 dev diaries last night. Would love to hear your opinions and thoughts.
thanks,
-Aradune
Concerning the PVE vs PVP servers
Will our characters will be locked to a chosen server, or will we be able to login with our character freely across all servers PVE or PVP?
I'm waiting for objections from some.
In a world where two people doing the same quest work their way through an open world dungeon to get to a monster at the end that both need to kill for that quest, some will *want* the contention of the monster being spawned and both fighting over it. They will *want* to 'beat' others to get that kill, or it's devalued considerably.
If the "only you and your group/guild can communicate with. Other players cannot bother them" thing happens by both getting an instanced monster the other cannot communicate with, that doesn't feel open world. If that thing happens by only one getting the monster to spawn and then only that one being able to talk to them, is that much better than fighting over it? It just means you make it a race to the trigger point rather than a fight after the trigger.
I should be clear: I am *not* someone who wants the contention. I like the idea of, once the monster is triggered, it 'belonging' to the triggerer. Even if you have to race to the trigger, and if someone else gets it you have to at least wait for them to finish the encounter (even if you have to wait up to, say, an hour), though I think that might turn dungeons into speed runs sometimes, which isn't great, at least you can just wait your turn in the same play session if someone else 'beats' you to it.
To me "open world" = cooperation/community, but I just know that some folks I've discussed this with before will see the removal of the fight over the 'final' monster as a removal of the whole point of the dungeon run. To some "open world" = contention/competition and, even though I don't agree, I do understand.
Maybe there could be different rules for different servers? Maybe PvP servers should have contended bosses? (It does seem that PvP might be the ultimate 'contention' for people that really want that competitive feel?)
HemlockReaper said:Aradune said:Posted 2 dev diaries last night. Would love to hear your opinions and thoughts.
thanks,
-Aradune
Concerning the PVE vs PVP servers
Will our characters will be locked to a chosen server, or will we be able to login with our character freely across all servers PVE or PVP?
This is a very interesting thought. I'm not a PvP fan, but I might well want to dip my toe for a change of pace every now and again, but I wouldn't bother if I had to level up a set of separate PvP characters.
stellarmind said:Thorndeep said:Aradune said:Posted 2 dev diaries last night. Would love to hear your opinions and thoughts.
thanks,
-Aradune
@Aradune Thank you so much for the dev diaries. I really enjoyed reading them. It's fascinating to hear the thought process behind why certain desisions are being made for Pantheon and to learn more details how certain mechanics will work.
I'm not a PvPer but reading how you are approaching intigrating it piques my interest. @Stellarmind Maybe you would be willing to teach me ropes?
As content denial is one of my biggest concerns, reading how you will be approaching some of it goes a long way to alleviate my fears.
(basics to pvp as i know it)
1. in order to win, a pvper must accept losing.
losing is core to any pvper. it provides a means to learn from mistakes, master ourselves and adapt to an opponent.(the mind)
I don't want this to seem like I'm bashing PvP, but warning: my experience hasn't been very positive in the past and it's maybe just not for me. Maybe it *can* be done better than I've seen in the past, but...
My experience in PvP is largely that you most often learn nothing from losing because 99% of the time it was an unfair match. A 'ganking' as they call it. It doesn't seem to me that the majority of PvPers want a challenging, even fight, they just want to gleefully kill the 'enemy'. Followed by camping the corpse and killing them again and again.
2. keybinds is a must for a pvper.
this ties into execution and being able to act and react as fast and accurate as possible.(the body)
Surely keybinds (and third party tools and the like) just create an 'arms race' that turn the game into a twitch experience rather than a strategic experience? If no one can (over)use keybinds, as long as everyone is in the same boat, using the same UI, then PvP will be an even playing field, still and will be more approachable by casual players without the 1337 keyboard skillz?
Maybe some classes would benefit if they are heavy of the button pressing? But that might be more a balancing issue than an 'need' for complex keybinding, etc?
3. there is only so much one player can do.
the existence of pvp is vast and wide. there are many styles and culture for pvp so pick the one that fits. ultimately communication, coordination and cooporation is key. (the soul)
True, yes. A guild that are communicating via Discord and coordinated by pre-arranged structures and strategies will tend to have more fun and greatly have the advantage. This sounds great, yes? But it means that the 'casual' players have less and less chance. That sounds fair, though? Maybe, but the upshot is you lose server population and end up with just large guilds and the fastest to assemble at any fight wins.
I you want an experience where communication, coordination and cooperation really shines and doesn't discourage casuals/others in the process, that's PvE, no?
As I say, I don't want to just seem like I'm 'dissing' PvP, but if you haven't tried it before... be prepared for a very different experience to PvE. I didn't read much in Aradune's dev diary that makes plans for Pantheon PvP any different to other games.
((Will our characters will be locked to a chosen server, or will we be able to login with our character freely across all servers PVE or PVP?))
Hard to see how that can work since it has been said that VR will monitor populations and open new servers (and close old ones) once the old ones have what they consider to be the right number of characters or accounts. Having characters created on one server able to be logged in on another server would defeat the purpose of this. Also the economy and ease of leveling is likely to vary between types of servers. Suppose that one can level twice as fast on a pvp server. Or half as fast. Or get twice the platinum in a set amount of time. Or half the platinum. The issues with allowing either easy transfers or access to any server are obvious.
Also consider whether names are unique per server or unique across all servers so that if someone takes *my* name on server X I cannot have it on server Y. If unique per server, again the problems are obvious.
Finally consider the importance many people want to place on reputation in a community. Works better if the community is one server not every server combined.
Yes I agree with Disposalist that there are interesting possibilities and I agree it is worth considering. I am not even saying that I object since I like the idea in some ways. Just pointing out obstacles to be considered.
((In a world where two people doing the same quest work their way through an open world dungeon to get to a monster at the end that both need to kill for that quest, some will *want* the contention of the monster being spawned and both fighting over it. They will *want* to 'beat' others to get that kill, or it's devalued considerably.))
Indeed. My response is that there should be some dungeons that appeal to the cutthroat hyper-competitive crowd and others that appeal to the rest of us. Aradune wasn't saying the mechanism he mentioned should apply to all bosses. I heartily approve. Then again I have been known to support limited *instancing* as a means of making some bosses not subject to competition and griefing so his suggestion which has fewer negatives than instancing is a no-brainer for me. Plus, in terms of beating others to the prey, Aradune's mechanism is entirely consistent with first having to get to the spawn area ahead of others. It just is a way of preventing interference after the boss spawns.
((My experience in PvP is largely that you most often learn nothing from losing because 99% of the time it was an unfair match. A 'ganking' as they call it. It doesn't seem to me that the majority of PvPers want a challenging, even fight, they just want to gleefully kill the 'enemy'. Followed by camping the corpse and killing them again and again.))
My experience as well. Many fights are totally unbalanced becasue of a huge level disparity or a "zerg" of dozens of players working together demolishing a solo player or single group in seconds. Mechanics that prevent or discourage this are not necessarily popular with hardcore pvp players.
dorotea said:...there should be some dungeons that appeal to the cutthroat hyper-competitive crowd and others that appeal to the rest of us. Aradune wasn't saying the mechanism he mentioned should apply to all bosses...
Yes. In previous threads I've come to the conclusion that I'd like it if various types of dungeon 'boss fights' or 'raid' encounters could be used ranging from total contention to instanced. They could even start with certain encounters being certain types but slowly design/develop different versions of each one so as to maximise the usage of content (I wouldn't want to exclude any particular type of player from any particular content forever).
Let competitive types have contention/competition and PvE types enjoy coop encounters without interruption.
Many fights are totally unbalanced becasue of a huge level disparity or a "zerg" of dozens of players working together demolishing a solo player or single group in seconds. Mechanics that prevent or discourage this are not necessarily popular with hardcore pvp players.
I understand traditional PvP folks would want traditional PvP stuff, but perhaps there could be some effort to design PvP that operates much like raids in that there are restrictions by level and number of players. I suppose I'm describing what "battlegrounds" look like in some games, but perhaps it could be applied to more informal open world situations as well. If criteria aren't met, groups and individuals can't encounter each other *shrug*.
"Hey, Aradune, let's ambush those players there!"
"Hmm. I'm too high level. I'll drop out and you can take them on"
dorotea said:There are two threads on these diaries - my comments on instancing are in the other one. I will focus on pvp now.
I have spent a year on a pvp server - in DAOC - far less than many of us but I am not purely a pve player though that is my preference.
What would attract me to a pvp server here? Possibly features that someone that *prefers* pvp to pve would not like. In which case I suggest that my opinions be ignored - focus on a ruleset that will make hardcore pvp players happy. I definitely believe that any opinions Stellarmind has on this topic are more valuable than mine.
1. Make killing of a player that cannot possibly represent a challenge either impossible or something with negative consequences. Level 40s camping a level 10 areas to one-shot the denizens is not an endearing feature. Notwithstanding that it can generate desirable action if their level 40 friends and guildmates respond. My favorite ruleset flat-out prevented an attack on someone X levels below the attacker unless the lower level attacked or healed or buffed or otherwise gave up the immunity. Alternatively - many games have a variety of penalties for killing someone that much lower. As a level 10 I may accept dying in even a remotely fair fight. If I cannot deal with frequently losing I do not belong on the server. But being one-shot by someone enormously higher level goes beyond that.
2. If there is any way to involve faction or race - as in DAOC - I am not the only one that feels it is a huge improvement. One race against the others - out of self-preservation or imperial aggression doesn't matter - at least gives a cause bigger than bloodlust to fight for. And with so many races it doesn't eliminate that many potential murder victims.
I'm with dorotea on this but I would like to see a player faction based bounty system instead of the hard lock on another player X levels below you. PK's could give or take player faction based on circumstances..
An unprovoked attack on a nuteral or good player -1 player faction
An unprovoked kill on a nuteral or good player -5 PF
An unprovoked kill on a nuteral or good player 10 levels below your -50 PF
As a player does the above type kills and moves further and further into bad player faction an equaly increasing bounty is offered on them and the faction points for killing them are now positiive points. It could be balanced so that a truly toxic player would be hunted by every person on the server and KOS in every city. Essentially ending the game for that character unless the only hunted players with bad PF for quite a while.
So if I took out a few PK'ers I could be in positive faction and when my wife gets a little snippy while in group I could feel free to wack her one with a low level fireball to put her in her place (Disclaimer: I only get away with taking that way because she doesn't read these forums)
Bottom line I like a little FFA pvp, I HATE hard limits, I have been in the position where a player 10 levels below me was harassing me and a friend and I had no recourse on a PVE server (he REALLY needed killing)
@dispolist ya that's just personal view. i get where you are coming from. every pvper knows that feeling and it is very much about unfair fights, especially in open world. duels are a different story.
i'll attempt to refine points here:
let's say i'm an enchanter just casually grinding and i get immediately killed out of nowhere(one shotted)
first thing comes to my mind is wtf happened. okay i need to pay more attention to my surroundings.
my situational awareness becomes heightened.
i notice that a wizard unflagged unusally approaching without any communication. (usually on pvp servers the neutral player starts to move away -a defensive posture) if the wizard continues without stopping this can be interpeted as aggression.
okay lets just say i get one shotted again. i now know the hostile engagement range for a wizard(lets just say 40 meters)
1. i already know i cannot engage direct combat.
2. it was an instant cast nuke
3. flight is the option
my response would be: looking at teh tool kit, it'd be, assume malison's nightmare is 40 meters and also instant cast, to counter the initial damage, i can then mezz safely if i hush due to teh silence without worry of counterspell. i run.
hopefully i can build enuff space to evade him. even if i die or the response was resisted or didn't work out, i have a response now.
i may have lost now, but next time i encounter a wizard in which the playing field is more equal. i will be better prepared and confident to engage a wizard.
with the 2nd point:
twitch response could be a way to view it i suppose. keybinds is more or less becoming one with your character? lets just say i know the exact response, but it takes me .7 seconds to execute. the instant damage from the wizards hits at .5 secs. if i had reacted at .2 secs that's the difference between life and death. input error is a real thing under stress. hell i remember spending hours a day just practicing keybinds when i was pretty knee deep in wow arenas. i didn't even factor in lag which u almost have to read what the opponent is doing.
we most likely have las12 so 2 enchanters can be radically different about their approach to the wizard. there definitely will be a hidden strategic element. these little subtle differences can be leveraged. it's the same concept of why some top dps pvers pull higher numbers even with less optimal equipment.
with the 3rd point:
the same concept can be applied to pve. a raid group that with the 3c is going to operate more effectively then a raid group that doesn't. should we not be rewarded for our efforts and willingness to improve our teamplay? this is how guilds form, friendships made and communities spring about. thinking about it, most hardcore pve raid groups require comms. it's no different from pvp.
@dorotea
i think vr should take a really good look at how open world pvp is handled by bdo.
some basic things to take:
1. pvp can not occur for players below level 20(gives new players time to learn and get confortable)
2. players can't target npcs, guards, key quest givers, etc(prevents direct content denial-it's player vs player not player vs npc-that's a con of a faction based pvp)
3. karma system in which the greater the level disparity or equipment, the greater the loss of karma.
-negative karma prevents the hostile player from entering towns and cities(guards kos) being designated safe zones in which pvp can't occur.
-karma can be recouped by doing community service or gained over time
it's a weird system at times because bdo has 'karma bombers'. for the most part its frowned upon as bad manners because the killed become the griefers. it's not really condemned though.
i think that's the jist of it. i could spend alot discussing this. let me do some work for the day XD
Third recent dev diary added today..
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/188/much-to-do-about-pantheon-cco-update
vjek said:Third recent dev diary added today..
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/188/much-to-do-about-pantheon-cco-update
hm i just realized we can leave a comment on the blogs...
The reason I never tried BDO is because of its pvp. Not the details you highlight, Stellarmind, but the fact that there is no way to totally avoid it by being unflagged.
Obviously on a pvp server my objection goes bye-bye. I disliked the game because there *were* no servers where you could ignore pvp the way you could in Dark Ages of Camelot by staying on the Gaheris cooperative server.
The ruleset you mention seems eminently reasonable. I don't think a prohibition on killing far lower level players would go over well among the real pvp crowd.
dorotea said:The reason I never tried BDO is because of its pvp. Not the details you highlight, Stellarmind, but the fact that there is no way to totally avoid it by being unflagged.
Obviously on a pvp server my objection goes bye-bye. I disliked the game because there *were* no servers where you could ignore pvp the way you could in Dark Ages of Camelot by staying on the Gaheris cooperative server.
The ruleset you mention seems eminently reasonable. I don't think a prohibition on killing far lower level players would go over well among the real pvp crowd.
yea bdo is pvp heavy... i would say it's now 80/20 pvp/pve nowadays-they've been introducing alot of group pve content(lifeskilling and party based zones)
actually.... there's a work around. so pve in bdo is mostly lifeskill/professions(making dat munnie) so what players do is level an alt lifeskiller up to 49 and don't complete the requirement to level to 50(the level for fair game pvp).
what's funny is most people figured we'd be more savage and with a bunch of players going around slaying each other, but that's not the case. the penality for killing players and going negative karma is very... dangerous. (goto jail, lose some very expensive gems~ONE gem can cost about 3-6 hours worth of grinding~, a 1% xp loss at level 62 is 10 hours, can't enter towns with the guards attacking-and you can't attack back) so usually players engaging in pvp will have a good reason to(defending the grind area or taking over a grind area) there's layers within layers for pvp in bdo since it gets to a political level too. a lot of unwritten rules -self governing community- essentially.
the purpose of pvp is usually options to defend or invade grinding zones IN AN OPEN WORLD(this is important) mmo. 'if you can take it then it's yours. if i can defend it, it's mines'-an unwritten rule. 'duel for spot' is also another unwritten rule.
if we are going to have a ranking faction based pvp, then it'll alter the landscape, similar to wow classic and probably what most of the forums folks have in their minds. i don't fault them for this. as brad said pvp has evolved quite a bit after 15 years.
from what i've seen though(pantheon), i really think they should adopt a similar system that bdo has. this system is more in line with the vision vr has for the game.