Forums » The Dire Lord

DL: September news letter question

    • 44 posts
    September 20, 2019 8:21 PM PDT

    First off this is not a rant, I am merely asking verification on the subject of the Dire Lord and faintly and very vaugely hit up on.  DL is honestly the only class im interested in playing.   I have had my conncerns since the unvailing of the class about the armor etc.  I know we are still in PA and allot can and most likely will change.. and I have made this post before and it accounts for a huge balance issue that has arrised in both EQ games.  I really dont want to wait 2 years for the developers to see that something isnt working. So if you (VR) "ANYONE" can elaborate on the direction and intentions for the DL I would be forever in your debt.  as it stands by (by my own understanding of what is known thus far) in the beggining it was said all tanks will be able to accomplish the same thing some just having a easier time with it.  with this post your not really swaying from that. but your saying DL will have a stuggle VS physical because of lack of AC...  this i understand and accept (after swallowing some bitter taste).  however what i dont understand is NONE of the other tank classes have a negative affect vs magic. this makes this unbalanced. how do you plan on addressing this? look at it this way.. you have a raid to run. you have an sk pally and warrior... 2/3 of the tanks have high mit normal magic. you have one tank with low mit high magic. best case scenerio is the DL sits out of most of the raid until he is needed. then as soon as its done is transfered out for another class. or worst case (for a DL) lets go through the whole raid knowing hey. on this boss we are gonna need heavy heals because of the magic damage lets either spam heal or bring in an extra healer instead of a DL... are you going to design raids based around the DL being able to MT? Personally I dont see this happening.  your designing a raid zone for Faerthale, please let brad tank it on a paladin and (i know it'll hurt his ego) or CohhCarnage play a DL (I only say Cohh because to date he is probably the best player of the class i have seen),  the community that plays this style of class has had its fill with being the broken tank, the outcast on raids.  a little more insight to what this class is supposed to be would go along way. think about a year after release. gear is plentiful. tanks are looking good. there mit (physical and magic) are looking good. there will not be as much of a gap. how do you plan to correct this? as it stands DL if they raid will be a DPS/OT on the odd occasion they need high magic resist. as were they other tanks are a MT and IF IF IF IF....... there magic resist isnt high enough they will bring in a DL to tank the one boss and move on... sorry i know the end of this post got a little aggresive but its something im passionate about and tired of seeing the wheel go round and around.  Please a little more insight is all im asking.  Do the numbers and explain how tanking is equal between the tanks..

    • 1652 posts
    September 21, 2019 1:37 AM PDT

    Rhelic said:

    First off this is not a rant, I am merely asking verification on the subject of the Dire Lord and faintly and very vaugely hit up on.  DL is honestly the only class im interested in playing.   I have had my conncerns since the unvailing of the class about the armor etc.  I know we are still in PA and allot can and most likely will change.. and I have made this post before and it accounts for a huge balance issue that has arrised in both EQ games.  I really dont want to wait 2 years for the developers to see that something isnt working. So if you (VR) "ANYONE" can elaborate on the direction and intentions for the DL I would be forever in your debt.  as it stands by (by my own understanding of what is known thus far) in the beggining it was said all tanks will be able to accomplish the same thing some just having a easier time with it.  with this post your not really swaying from that. but your saying DL will have a stuggle VS physical because of lack of AC...  this i understand and accept (after swallowing some bitter taste).  however what i dont understand is NONE of the other tank classes have a negative affect vs magic. this makes this unbalanced. how do you plan on addressing this? look at it this way.. you have a raid to run. you have an sk pally and warrior... 2/3 of the tanks have high mit normal magic. you have one tank with low mit high magic. best case scenerio is the DL sits out of most of the raid until he is needed. then as soon as its done is transfered out for another class. or worst case (for a DL) lets go through the whole raid knowing hey. on this boss we are gonna need heavy heals because of the magic damage lets either spam heal or bring in an extra healer instead of a DL... are you going to design raids based around the DL being able to MT? Personally I dont see this happening.  your designing a raid zone for Faerthale, please let brad tank it on a paladin and (i know it'll hurt his ego) or CohhCarnage play a DL (I only say Cohh because to date he is probably the best player of the class i have seen),  the community that plays this style of class has had its fill with being the broken tank, the outcast on raids.  a little more insight to what this class is supposed to be would go along way. think about a year after release. gear is plentiful. tanks are looking good. there mit (physical and magic) are looking good. there will not be as much of a gap. how do you plan to correct this? as it stands DL if they raid will be a DPS/OT on the odd occasion they need high magic resist. as were they other tanks are a MT and IF IF IF IF....... there magic resist isnt high enough they will bring in a DL to tank the one boss and move on... sorry i know the end of this post got a little aggresive but its something im passionate about and tired of seeing the wheel go round and around.  Please a little more insight is all im asking.  Do the numbers and explain how tanking is equal between the tanks..

     

    You don't need to have a malus if the other has bonuses. Think about plate like a bonus over mail and DL's anti magic like one and you're set.

     

    The only difference between malus normal and bonus is how you set your mind around it.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at September 23, 2019 7:55 AM PDT
    • 108 posts
    September 21, 2019 9:21 AM PDT

    Hm i understand how you feel but i think in terms off raid bosses the Dl will have a very nice place set for them (if you like to be front tank) it might be harder to find a ordinary grp because of the more spike/damage they can get from ordinary mobs or named npc in terms off physical spank, because of the strain from healers mana.Them again it is all depending on the grp disposition like having 2 healers on the grp then no problem or some really heave dps that burns down content like fireworks.but dont lose hope we are only in pre-alpha and i dont think they will ship a complettly broken class.

    =)

    • 130 posts
    September 22, 2019 6:06 PM PDT
    Also here is cohh playing dl only thing I can see and talking to a few who know some of the stances weren't working only one was https://youtu.be/2FXXE4IWu6k
    • 691 posts
    September 24, 2019 3:43 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You don't need to have a malus if the other has bonuses. Think about plate like a bonus over mail and DL's anti magic like one and you're set.

    The only difference between malus normal and bonus is how you set your mind around it.

    You can think of plate as a bonus over mail if you want, because it is "superior".  But having "inferior" armor can't be compensated by having "superior resists"... unless everyone else had "reduced" resists (which they don't).  Both the paladin and warrior can even block/reflect spells with shields, and then there's CC (stuns/mezs/interrupts).  So having "superior" magic resist doesn't compensate for having "inferior" armor unless that "superior" armor negatively impacts defenses vs magic (then making it "inferior").. in which case, THEN you could think of it as "how you set your mind around it."

    Otherwise the DL is simply at a defecit.

    • 2475 posts
    September 25, 2019 1:23 PM PDT

    How much physical damage mitigation one has from armor is one piece of a much larger puzzle in terms of survivability or tank viability/effectiveness. 

    • 1652 posts
    September 25, 2019 1:45 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You don't need to have a malus if the other has bonuses. Think about plate like a bonus over mail and DL's anti magic like one and you're set.

    The only difference between malus normal and bonus is how you set your mind around it.

    You can think of plate as a bonus over mail if you want, because it is "superior".  But having "inferior" armor can't be compensated by having "superior resists"... unless everyone else had "reduced" resists (which they don't).  Both the paladin and warrior can even block/reflect spells with shields, and then there's CC (stuns/mezs/interrupts).  So having "superior" magic resist doesn't compensate for having "inferior" armor unless that "superior" armor negatively impacts defenses vs magic (then making it "inferior").. in which case, THEN you could think of it as "how you set your mind around it."

    Otherwise the DL is simply at a defecit.

     

    If everyone has no resists and only the direlord got some, then they have superior resists.

     

    I don't get where you want to go with this, except another discussion about how direlord "might" be weak if the game is badly tuned. I'm simply summing up that seeing something as inferior depends of the point you look from. If you're up a hill then the plains are lower, if you're in the plains then the hill is higher.

    • 691 posts
    September 27, 2019 1:18 PM PDT

    @Mauvais - I hear ya man.  I'm just saying that other people aren't going to be without resists... to your point of "If everyone has no resists and only the direlord got some, then they have superior resists."  The DL will just have "higher" resists than the other two tanks.  (I'd be willing to bet that, aside from temporary special skills, the cloth casters will have higher resists than the DL based off of EQ and almost all other MMOs I've played.)  Lets not forget that the Warrior, Paladin, Cleric and Shaman can all wear mail too... so worst-case-scenario, a Paladin or Warrior takes some mail armor for resists if it is that much of a boon.  As a SHD on a PvP server in EQ, I always wore high resist gear because resists were king in PvP, and then I would carry around some plate in cases of PvE.  If you tried tanking in anything other than plate you were replaced by a monk.

    • 27 posts
    October 9, 2019 3:21 AM PDT

    Lots of speculation , and it is understandable as alot of this information is not available to the public yet.

     

    All I can say is trust that VR will not let the DL be a papertank. 

    From the outside I would think it is easy to surmise that DLs can get away with a little less AC due to thier self heals. I think they chose mail as a way to balance out a DLs self heals, and Pantheons DL strikes me as a Leaner and meaner version of past SKs, DKs, etc...  I kind of like it, and pretty sure they will be the most offensive of tanks.

    As to being invited to Raids, DLs had a ability under their class description that I hope makes it to release. If this description is correct it should bring them into most raids as a off tank at the least. That ability is listed as Diremark, and if a DL in a raid put that on the maintank, that would go a long way toward keeping the tank up. It is still pre alpha, but hope some version of that ability makes it to live. 

    In regards to any thoughts of Tanks being equal, I dont see that happening, and would not welcome it. Each class should be distinct in ther strengths and weaknesses.

    Again trust VR will make each tank effective at most raids

    • 61 posts
    November 5, 2019 6:37 PM PST

    This is a very bad mindset to take.  You all mention A LOT about how extra healing will need to be "pumped into" the Dire Lord.  And how because of a lesser armor class, they will just be pummeled by physical attacks.  Yes.  A Dire Lord is going to be "spikey" in terms of being hit by physical damage because of the armor class.  But, Dire Lords have a few tricks up their sleaves to negate this.  Namely:

    "Relentless Vitality - Passive Ability. The lower your health, the stronger your natural health regeneration becomes."

    and

    "Dark Revenge - Passive Ability. After being critically hit, your next attack will restore your health by X% of the damage you deal."  

    Sure - Dire Lords will take more damage, but they will shrug that off completely and heal themselves due to their superior health regen.  No other Tanks have this ability.  Paladin's have to stop their ability to dodge, block and parry in order to cast any kind of healing ability, and Warriors cannot heal at all.  

    Dire Lords will be in a fine place - and if they struggle at the start, Mr. Perkins has already said they will be closely monitoring classes to bring them up to par during the pre-alpha, alpha, and beta.

  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    November 6, 2019 4:45 PM PST
    You can’t rely on health regen/heals if you are one shot by a crushing blow. This reason alone makes me believe stacking health/sta will be a DLs main stat.
    • 61 posts
    November 6, 2019 5:11 PM PST

    There is absolutely no way VR would allow a Tank in same level content to be one shot...  Absolutely not.  I'm sure a Dire Lord will take 'spikey' damage and their health will fluctuate a lot.  But at the end of the day they're not going to require "extra" healing because they have their own healing. 

    Let's say a Warrior has 1,000 health and takes 200 damage per hit. 

    A Dire Lord has 1,000 health and takes 300 damage per hit. 

    The Warrior requires 200 direct healing from the healer. 

    The Dire Lord may only require 150 direct healing from the healer because they heal themselves for 150 and the healer heals them for 150. 

    Obviously these are arbitrary numbers, but I really do believe that anyone thinking Dire Lord is going to be some god awful Tank that can't do any content and is always on the bench is dead wrong. Yes Paladins can heal too, but they lose all ability to dodge, block, and parry.  So they won't be doing much healing, if any, while actively Tanking.  If you think that just because a Dire Lord wears mail, that they're going to be getting one shot.  That's asinine.  On top of that, Dire Lords will excel at Tanking any kind of casting mob.  So we have them taking 'spikey' but most likely managable damage from physical attacks, and shrugging off magical.  Looks like a win to me.

    EDIT: Edited for easier reading (wall of text)


    This post was edited by Talint at November 6, 2019 5:14 PM PST
    • 691 posts
    November 6, 2019 6:22 PM PST

    Talint said:

    There is absolutely no way VR would allow a Tank in same level content to be one shot...  Absolutely not. 

    I promise players will be 1-shot at some point.  There is already pre-alpha footage of a DL being 1-shot by a trashmob because they used canopy of blood to sacrifice 25% of their HP at the same time the mob spiked on them (albeit pre-alpha).  Point being, when Bosses start quad hitting while simultaneously riposting and dodging/blocking/parrying/missing the DL's abysal strikes (and other self heals) their self healing does nothing to offset their low mitigation.  Lets not forget, the Paladin has self healing too... as well as both the Pal and Warrior can block/reflect spells with shields.  The DL's role will likely be to supplement the other tanks with things like Dire Mark as was mentioned and canopy of blood while NOT actually tanking.

    • 61 posts
    November 6, 2019 6:53 PM PST

    Darch said:

     

    I promise players will be 1-shot at some point.  There is already pre-alpha footage of a DL being 1-shot by a trashmob because they used canopy of blood to sacrifice 25% of their HP at the same time the mob spiked on them (albeit pre-alpha).  Point being, when Bosses start quad hitting while simultaneously riposting and dodging/blocking/parrying/missing the DL's abysal strikes (and other self heals) their self healing does nothing to offset their low mitigation.  Lets not forget, the Paladin has self healing too... as well as both the Pal and Warrior can block/reflect spells with shields.  The DL's role will likely be to supplement the other tanks with things like Dire Mark as was mentioned and canopy of blood while NOT actually tanking.

     

    You're speaking of something that would happen so infrequently, as if it is going to happen all the time and make Dire Lords useless.  I would also love to know the circumstances of said "1-shot."  How much mitigation do you think you're going to lose over 1 less armor class and not having a shield? 

    You bring up Paladin's ability to "self heal also".  But fail to recognize that them self healing will make them unable to block, dodge or parry while casting said heals.  So you lose huge damage reduction right there.  Also, of the heals on the Paladin class healing page, they all, baring one that specifically states, "small amount of healing" - heal the defensive target.  Not themselves.  So no.  Paladin's do not have NEAR the same amount of self-healing that a Dire Lord will have.  

    EDIT:  I also forgot the mention the below listed ability.  If you're in that much fear for your life that you need your Abyssal Strke to land - there  you have it.

    Baleful Severing

    You sever your enemy's will and command them to be still. In this helpless state, the next attack against them will not miss and cannot be dodged, parried, blocked, riposted or resisted. When the attack lands, fills your Essence Vial to full.


    This post was edited by Talint at November 6, 2019 7:00 PM PST
  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    November 7, 2019 1:02 AM PST
    VR will make some mob encounters DL friendly and some not. So, a warrior being one shot by an encounter suitable for a DLs magic mitigation is just as possible as a DL being one shot by a heavy hitting crushing blow that would have been mitigated my a warriors AC.
    • 61 posts
    November 7, 2019 1:25 AM PST

    That goes against everything VR has stated...  So let's assume this.  You're a Wizard.  You spend 35 minutes making a group for "insert dungeon here".  You clear half the dungeon with a Dire Lord and get to a boss that does mostly physical damage.  In your scenerio, you spend 20 minutes wiping, not because the Dire Lord is bad, but because he "cannot Tank this."  So now you have to go looking for a Warrior Tank.  So you spend another 15 minutes finding a Warrior Tank.  Then you have to back track and RE-CLEAR everything you just cleared, without a Tank, because I can assure you that the Dire Lord won't stick around to help out.  So then after all that crap, you finally get back into the dungeon and were you where and kill the boss.  But then you get to the end and the final boss is all magic damage.  So you repeat the entire scenerio finding a Dire Lord Tank.  VR has said time and time again that if you only have an hour to play, they want that to be meaningful.  They're not going to make this game where you have to min/max everything so specifically.  It just won't happen.

  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    November 7, 2019 6:21 AM PST
    I mean VR has said that they are building boss encounters with all three tanks in mind, it’s been quoted that some fights you’ll want a DL over and Warrior and vice versa. I think a mixture of a tough encounter with boss abilities the tank can’t counter properly will end up being waaaay harder than with the correct tank. How I see it in my head (and how I believe it should be) is that in a normal 6 man dungeon group, any tank can tank every encounter as long as they are geared properly. But for raids, I believe it will be different..more tactical. Say you have a raid with 3 bosses, one is undead (pally tank), one has high physical damage (war tank),one has high magic damage (DL tank)...all three tanks will be needed. This game is about specializing each class with strengths and weaknesses.
    • 2475 posts
    November 7, 2019 10:39 AM PST

    It's not worth arguing Talint, too many sky is falling types here that really refuse to believe there can be any way DL will be able to stand even with the other two tanks despite having nothing to really back their claims, just fear mongering. Saying things like "their self healing does nothing to offset their low mitigation" when we have no idea what their mitigation will be, let alone how much of a difference plate vs mail actually makes. 

    • 61 posts
    November 7, 2019 11:09 AM PST

    Wig said: How I see it in my head (and how I believe it should be) is that in a normal 6 man dungeon group, any tank can tank every encounter as long as they are geared properly. But for raids, I believe it will be different..more tactical. Say you have a raid with 3 bosses, one is undead (pally tank), one has high physical damage (war tank),one has high magic damage (DL tank)...all three tanks will be needed. This game is about specializing each class with strengths and weaknesses.

    And that is fine.  In raids you will have that luxery of being able to bring along multiple tanks.  But people like Darch are constantly screaming that Dire Lords are going to have no place anywhere in the game "because of a low armor class."  That is asinine.  I agree with you in terms of raids.  Raids are supposed to be challenging.  Raids are supposed to require a min/max approach.  But when people are constantly bitching that "Dire Lords will be a supplement to a Tank everywhere because they will not be able to take a hit" - it's crazy.

    EDIT:  As an after-thought.  Who remembers when Death Knights were introduced to WoW.  This exact same topic garnished hundreds of pages of discussion on the forums.  "What!  How can Death Knights actually Tank content.  They don't have a shield!  They'll just get hit a few times and die!"  It's all about how you build them - not about what you think may happen.


    This post was edited by Talint at November 7, 2019 11:12 AM PST
    • 1652 posts
    November 7, 2019 11:11 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Talint said:

    There is absolutely no way VR would allow a Tank in same level content to be one shot...  Absolutely not. 

    I promise players will be 1-shot at some point.  There is already pre-alpha footage of a DL being 1-shot by a trashmob because they used canopy of blood to sacrifice 25% of their HP at the same time the mob spiked on them (albeit pre-alpha).  Point being, when Bosses start quad hitting while simultaneously riposting and dodging/blocking/parrying/missing the DL's abysal strikes (and other self heals) their self healing does nothing to offset their low mitigation.  Lets not forget, the Paladin has self healing too... as well as both the Pal and Warrior can block/reflect spells with shields.  The DL's role will likely be to supplement the other tanks with things like Dire Mark as was mentioned and canopy of blood while NOT actually tanking.

     

    Don't you feel hypocritical because a player died of a bug multiplying chemical damage instead of having no effect to use it as an argument for "Direlord are oneshotted" ?

     

    Would a warrior have been hit by a similar bug, you wouldn't even have talked about it, because it's easier to strip something out of context for the pure sake of looking informed and ranting on the same subject for years.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at November 7, 2019 11:12 AM PST
    • 61 posts
    November 7, 2019 11:14 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Don't you feel hypocritical because a player died of a bug multiplying chemical damage instead of having no effect to use it as an argument for "Direlord are oneshotted" ?

     

    Would a warrior have been hit by a similar bug, you wouldn't even have talked about it, because it's easier to strip something out of context for the pure sake of looking informed and ranting on the same subject for years.

    Oh I love this.  Thank you MauvaisOeil!  I knew there was something fishy about this.  Hence why I asked him for context - which of course he didn't provide.

    • 195 posts
    November 7, 2019 11:17 AM PST

    Darch said:

    There is already pre-alpha footage of a DL being 1-shot by a trashmob because they used canopy of blood to sacrifice 25% of their HP at the same time the mob spiked on them (albeit pre-alpha).

    You have conveniently re-defined "1-shot". In all the games I've played, "1-shot" means being taken from FULL health to dead in 'One Shot'.

    If one doesn't have to be at full health to be 1-shot, then by definition every death in combat by every player in history was a '1-shot'. It simply may have been the first shot, the 10th shot, or the 162nd shot.

  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    November 7, 2019 11:44 AM PST
    @Talint
    Yes, correct, which brings me back to why I believe the main stat for DLs will be stamina/hp. Also, we don’t know the armor value difference between plate and heavy mail, it could be so small that it really doesn’t make much of a difference. It may be something VR thought would be a good idea for variation among the tanks, so you don’t see all tanks running around with plate armor.
  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    November 7, 2019 11:50 AM PST
    I would also add that warriors and paladins can wear shields which increases their AC immensely, so even more so will a DL want to stack hp. DL will possibly be hit harder than warriors and paladins, so they need to take the hit by having more stam.
    • 61 posts
    November 7, 2019 1:10 PM PST

    Wig said: @Talint Yes, correct, which brings me back to why I believe the main stat for DLs will be stamina/hp. Also, we don’t know the armor value difference between plate and heavy mail, it could be so small that it really doesn’t make much of a difference. It may be something VR thought would be a good idea for variation among the tanks, so you don’t see all tanks running around with plate armor.

     

    @Wig

    Who here has been arguing about what stats a Dire Lord will run.  Darch and some others have been trying to say that Dire Lords will be useless.  I don't care what stat I stack.  I'm telling you that Dire Lord will not be, "a useless, supporting, DPS/Off Tank" like Darch claims.