Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Some thoughts and questions after the September Newsletter

    • 3237 posts
    September 19, 2019 8:26 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Personally, I think it would be best if teleport gateways worked like a boat or wagon service, but were obviously quicker in the actual transport.  Still on a schedule (every 30/60 minutes maybe?) and still from a terminal/gateway/whatever, but without the hours of staring at the sea/road.

    I agree with this.  If a gateway has 8 different portal destinations, let them rotate every 5 minutes, on a schedule.

     

    • 3852 posts
    September 19, 2019 8:44 AM PDT

    I agree with much that was said above.

    One thing that jumped out at me was the indication that druids and wizards will *not* be able to teleport others until a fairly high level. This strikes me as a very significant limitation initially.

    It will be a significant limitation more permanently if the level limitation applies to all group members. So that a level 50 druid cannot transport level 10 friends or customers around the world letting them bypass content and level-up a lot more quickly than would be the case without the teleportation. In other words let the teleportation benefit people doing "endgame" or late game things but not let it be used to bypass the core game design philosophy for how new characters (who may well be new players) interact with Terminus.

    I find the repeated use of "endgame" in the discussion of class skills a bit disquieting. Many of us hope for a game with the focus on the journey not the destination, and devices like horizontal increases in character abilities to reduce the pool of characters stagnating at maximum level with nothing to do but the same raids or dailies over and over. Discussion of character design planning for how things will work in the "endgame" somewhat contradicts previous statements that Pantheon will not be concerned with an "endgame: and that is a term best not used.

    • 65 posts
    September 19, 2019 9:31 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    disposalist said: ... What is the balancing downside to Wizards and Druids that they should get such an amazing travel ability? ...
    It's interesting you should bring that up.
    Historically, Druids and Wizards combat value was balanced around their non-combat teleportation.  It was included in every "combat adjustment" effort to balance them as a class.
    Unfortunately, it shouldn't be.  Class value in combat should look at combat abilities, spells, and similar, only.
    If you think of it in the reverse, you can see how it's illogical:  Let's balance non-combat abilities based on what a class can do in combat?  Woah, no. stop, why would you do that?
    Yet: Let's balance combat abilities based on what a class can do out of combat: Ok, sounds good!

    Objectively the two should be separate, yet emotionally and practically, they never are.
    In my opinion, if teleportation as a concept is going to be in the game, and you want the most flexibility in content generation, then EQ1's Origin ability is the end result.  You can return to your point of origin before you login, and while in-game once every 15-20 minutes.  Doesn't matter what you class is.  As long as you're out of combat, you can do that.  Eliminates all /stuck tickets, completely. 
    Coupled with your items never leaving your body, the burden on CS is reduced to zero for more than half of the typical tickets.  When you're forced to pay actual humans minimum wage 24x7, you start to re-consider in-game GM's and ticket burden starts to become a very high priority.

    Otherwise, disposalist, as you've correctly pointed out, Wizards & Druids will forever be considered a "pocket" class, and druids in Pantheon even more, since they get a rez.  A max level Druid will be an expectation, after the first one reaches max level.  Dual boxing a Druid is what most of the players in my guild are planning, as their first run through.  It will then be used to ease or remove all of the typical penalties of the leveling process.  Do I wish it was this way?  No.  But, this is the public design goal for Pantheon, today, so we're planning on using it.

    Personally, I don't see any reason why teleportation scrolls couldn't completely replace the ability of druids and wizards to move groups or individuals around the world, in addition to an "Origin" type ability for all classes to alleviate the CS burden. 
    Using consumables for fast travel, to me, seems like a great tuning knob to put in place.  I would also use evac scrolls for the same reason.  Anyone could have one, and anyone could use it to evac their entire group. 
    Permit half of the PC crafters to make evac effect objects, or allow it to be a clicky effect imbued on arbitrary crafted items with a respectable cooldown.. 
    Or have them be rechargeable items, and you have to use faction credit to recharge them. 
    Or put all the scrolls/charged-items (personal teleport, group teleport, evac) on NPC faction vendors, and make them expensive, so players have to donate, sacrifice, or similar from their adventuring to obtain them.

    I simply see it as a solved problem, once VR decided to have teleportation of any kind in the game.  There are many ways to solve the problem elegantly, they're just (currently) going with the traditional EQ1 route, with all it's known problems.  At some point, playing the game has to be fun.  The last thing I want is to have Pantheon be a running simulator like PFO.

    I think you have some interesting ideas about eliminating painful corpse recovery, people getting stuck places, decreasing the need for GM intervention, and possibly making druids and wizards more rounded in their combat skills. I am not apposed to those ideas in general. The concept of druid and wizard combat skills being mitigated by their non combat skills, should not exist. I agree that combat skills should be balanced for combat only. Corpse recovery is such a staple of EQ that people seem to want it.  I don't see that changing. Consumables for transport is interesting, as it would be a gold sink, but people seem to want druids and wizards to have that niche. Perhaps the other classes need more out of combat utility(like my future DL). I'm not a fan of "pocket classes," but your point about druids seems valid. I can see people abusing them for dual boxing and power leveling at this point. 

    • 752 posts
    September 19, 2019 9:50 AM PDT

    Eventually every portal will be unlocked by every player. Thats how these types of systems work. You can delay it by requiring components or quests to gain access. If you don't want it that way you have to go with a completely different system - Say a mass transit or NPC ran system. I would prefer a taxi system over a hub world as it increases social interaction and promotes player driven economies. 

     

    And i love the fact that monks will not be all powerful. I wish other games would have improved on FD previously. I was always more cautious than others about my FD anyway. I utilized sneak a lot more than others did as i also played a rogue and was used to that.

     

    I know people do not like the idea of a warrior having a shield. I am right there with you. But if my DPS or utility is higher with a shield i am going to use one. If i can get a really good stun or a damage boost from bash that would be cool. Lets add in some other shield skills like face-slam or gut-jab. Lets really get into this shield damage skill line. Lets not forget items like a unicorn shield that can add actual dmg/dly to a shield.


    This post was edited by kreed99 at September 19, 2019 9:52 AM PDT
    • 73 posts
    September 19, 2019 11:22 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Elki said:

    each class will have to quest their own skills
    it is absurd that a class has to do a quest to be helped by the ability of another class
    would it be logical for classes that use mana to have to make a quest for an enchanter to give them a buff of mana regen? (in case it has one)
    Or that the other classes have to do a quest to receive an AC HP buff or a clerical REZ?

    It's actually not absurd at all.  Trying to compare fast travel to buffs is a serious stretch.  From the FAQ:

    19.0 What can you tell me about travel in Pantheon? Will there be teleportation? Will there be any limits or restrictions?

    Pantheon will have meaningful travel -- players will need to travel to new areas and face the dangers that come with such a journey.  That said, there will be spells like 'Call of the Hero', which summons an ally to your side if they are grouped with you.  There will also be a caravan-like system, where a player can log out whilst in a group and then log back in and still be with the group, even if that group has moved.  There will also be additional ways to help groups come together and stay together.  But it's also important to note that this doesn't mean people will be able to travel as they please, to anywhere in the world, at a whim; especially if they haven't traveled there by foot or horse at least once (e.g. players will need to unlock certain regions by traveling there first).  More details to come as we get closer to beta and launch.

    Kittik said:

    I think it is logical reasoning that the Gatekeeper of the Stones (or whatever he was called) would require anyone that uses the stone to complete a quest first.

    Perfectly logical, IMO.

    yes Kittik in my logic too
    I guess where we differ is that the one who uses the stone (or whatever they call it) will be the druid or the wizard not the rest of the group

    OneADseven I don't understand your point very well if it can be more explicit

    • 2752 posts
    September 19, 2019 11:23 AM PDT

    Raidil said: ...they can make a spell components for teleportation and make a different one for single person or multi-person and make those components expensive meaning there'll be less people using wizards for travel because of the cost. List of limit The taxi issue because of the cost and the level they've have to be. Also they can make the group components more rare to find

    That doesn't do too much to curb players actually using teleports, it just changes the use from "porting to x, donations accepted" to "porting to x for (y+compenent cost)." If the components are rare then ports will just be very expensive, almost exclusively sold to desperate players, and otherwise mostly useless.

    disposalist said:

    For something as fundamental as being able to easily travel the world, I'm still concerned that two classes get 'control' of this for seemingly no other reason than traditional class definitions.

    What is the balancing downside to Wizards and Druids that they should get such an amazing travel ability?

    This seems a little hyper focused on the immediate effect of a teleport.

    A teleport is an ability that saves a player some measure of time getting from one place to another. If we really wanted to dissect every class to point fingers at stand out abilities I would argue we could just as easily point fingers at the resurrection spells for almost the same reasons. Resurrect returns some measure of experience (at least clerics do) which can end up being massive amounts of saved time, it also teleports a player directly to their body from anywhere in the world also saving possibly massive amounts of time. If you really want to dig into it you can look at even less obvious time savers like enchanters mana regen/return spells and how much downtime they shave off every group. 

    Why should anyone have such time saving abilities? Stealth/invis capable classes able to move past mobs, movespeed buffing classes able to move faster than others to save time, etc?

    phil85 said:

    Raidil said: I think the DL in pantheon will be the highest DPS tank and we have a mark to help the tank and reduce damage to anyone in group. The DL may have more base hp to combat the lower mitigation of not having the extra ac. It's possible it just takes more skill to tank well with an DL over the other tanks who knows tell the come out with the game.. so guess will see how it is in 2022

    The DL may(or may not) be a higher DPS tank, but VR did mention that tanks will not be able to compete with the DPS classes in damage output. So I wonder if the DL will be able to function as main tank for most encounters, or will it always need a paly or warrior around to help. Or, will the DL need extra healing to stay alive, requiring more downtime or an extra healer in group? I hope that it's only the raid encounters where the DL needs help and not the majority of group encounters. We'll see in 2022 I guess. 

    There is no reason DL wouldn't be able to stand next to warriors or paladins when it comes to tanking just because they wear chain. Unless VR ditches the idea of slower paced combat and mobs are routinely one-two shotting tanks then it stands to reason the DL's tools can more than make up for whatever (potentialy small) percentage mitigation difference there is between chain and plate, most notably with their massive lifestealing potential. 

    • 2756 posts
    September 19, 2019 1:56 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    disposalist said:

    For something as fundamental as being able to easily travel the world, I'm still concerned that two classes get 'control' of this for seemingly no other reason than traditional class definitions.

    What is the balancing downside to Wizards and Druids that they should get such an amazing travel ability?

    This seems a little hyper focused on the immediate effect of a teleport.

    A teleport is an ability that saves a player some measure of time getting from one place to another. If we really wanted to dissect every class to point fingers at stand out abilities I would argue we could just as easily point fingers at the resurrection spells for almost the same reasons. Resurrect returns some measure of experience (at least clerics do) which can end up being massive amounts of saved time, it also teleports a player directly to their body from anywhere in the world also saving possibly massive amounts of time. If you really want to dig into it you can look at even less obvious time savers like enchanters mana regen/return spells and how much downtime they shave off every group. 

    Why should anyone have such time saving abilities? Stealth/invis capable classes able to move past mobs, movespeed buffing classes able to move faster than others to save time, etc?

    Teleporting, if anything like EQ (which is what it sounds like in the newsletter - a little easier, even), is a massive time save and a huge content skip.

    Resurrection is also a huge time save, yes, I agree, and perhaps clerics shouldn't be able to resurrect themselves only others?  I also don't think resurrection should return anything like the high level spells in EQ.  96% made a mockery of death and in combination with evacs and teleports made a raid wipe nothing special.

    Clarity and the like is very impactful too.  I do think it shouldn't be as simple as a hit-and-run buff.  In EQ it lead to people sitting around until they got Clarity and only then going adventuring because it was such a relative boost it made adventuring without it seem frustrating.  I would tone that kind of thing down - at least restrict it to an in-party only buff (and if you leave the enchanter's party, you lose the buff).

    SoW was quite a limited buff.  You would save some time but were still in serious danger if you went through higher level zones.  The same for invisibility.  I wouldn't put them on the same convenience level as cross-continent teleportation.  They also don't have economy wrecking potential.

    *shrug* Every ability is a time saver to some extent.  If you use your warrior abilities well you get through a fight quicker.

    The point is, teleportation has *relatively* huge impact and for the benefit of the game world and the game economy, it should be limited, but should be fair across classes/races.

    Other less impactful stuff can be included, sprinkled through the classes for colour and balanced without major impact.

    I just hope VR really think through the impact of things like this - we've had 20 years to see how some things work out - and don't include some EQ/VG mechanics 'just because'.


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 19, 2019 1:59 PM PDT
    • 52 posts
    September 19, 2019 6:32 PM PDT

    Well, we all have a choice of how we want to play the game.  I played a druid in EQ and never thought I lost something from the ability to teleport or gate.  It allows the group to get to areas to explore and or dungeons.  As an adult player with a job and family if, I have 1-2 hours to play I do not want to spend 30 just getting someplace.  Also earning your gate spells is an important part of leveling your class for me as a druid it was a big deal every time I got another gate spell, and the utility I brought to my group or guild was meaningful.  

    Also, I am sure there will be some level of fast travel in the game like the Plane of Knowledge or some type of gate people can use, that said I do not see people upset over Mages in WOW getting gates and or  Warlocks being able to summon.  To me, it is part of their class and not one I played so we all have the ability to play classes based on what they can do. 

    I want classes to be defined and to have specific roles, so you have to learn to be good at your class and be able to fill your role in the group, Warriors should not be DPS, they are tanks. If you want to be a melee DPS class then be a Ranger or Monk.

    Warriors and shield, if this game is like EQ, then every class has a role and not every class can fill every role. I for one am fine with the shield aspect, if you have a ton of diversity within classes then it starts to kill the role that class was meant for.  Its like an enchanter trying to be heavy DPS, they are for buffs/debuffs and most importantly CC.  

    I also played a monk and pulled for many years, when FD fails it usually means your dead, just because you can FD doesn't mean your safe, what if the mob camps your FD spot then your stuck, maybe you can flop and try to move away or maybe you die trying but I hope it works like EQ and you get to level your FD abilities.  I never thought it was overpowered, only really misused was when used to train a group of mobs out of an area, but then why is that not a valid strategy? Especially for corpse retrieval.  The monk flop was my goto for pulling corpses out of dangerous areas, so it should for sure have failure rate but it should be low and we should be able to progress that ability.  Same with Rogues, stealth is their thing then can not take hits, so it should be a powerful tool that takes skill to use.

    With Shamans, I feel what you described is a valid way to use the skill, if a group is gonna wipe and a Monk can not FD to pull bodies, a Shaman hitting their evac so they can return and res seems like a valid use of the skill. I do not think every fight should require long and difficult corpse retrievals, they should give us skills and classes that afford us the chance to avoid it.  Doesn't mean you will pull it off every time. Maybe the monk was trying to peel the healer and dies so the healer can get one more heal off, or maybe the Shaman is trying to help a Cleric keep the main tank up and gets aggro and dies.

    In early EQ remember spending 5 hours and losing large amount of experience to corpse retrievals, it sucked, and I would not want to play like that again.  I like the idea of being able to plan against a wipe, and having a class that can evac out then come back to res a monk/rogue to pull bodies and get the group or raid back up for another try, hopefully before things start to respawn.  This ain't WOW!

    We will figure all this out in Alpha and Beta while we play to test and find bugs and balance issues to make the game great for launch.  I, however, like the way things are laid out they make sense to me relative to the gameplay.  

     


    This post was edited by Albe at September 19, 2019 6:51 PM PDT
    • 11 posts
    September 19, 2019 10:19 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Raidil said: ...they can make a spell components for teleportation and make a different one for single person or multi-person and make those components expensive meaning there'll be less people using wizards for travel because of the cost. List of limit The taxi issue because of the cost and the level they've have to be. Also they can make the group components more rare to find

    That doesn't do too much to curb players actually using teleports, it just changes the use from "porting to x, donations accepted" to "porting to x for (y+compenent cost)." If the components are rare then ports will just be very expensive, almost exclusively sold to desperate players, and otherwise mostly useless.

    disposalist said:

    For something as fundamental as being able to easily travel the world, I'm still concerned that two classes get 'control' of this for seemingly no other reason than traditional class definitions.

    What is the balancing downside to Wizards and Druids that they should get such an amazing travel ability?

    This seems a little hyper focused on the immediate effect of a teleport.

    A teleport is an ability that saves a player some measure of time getting from one place to another. If we really wanted to dissect every class to point fingers at stand out abilities I would argue we could just as easily point fingers at the resurrection spells for almost the same reasons. Resurrect returns some measure of experience (at least clerics do) which can end up being massive amounts of saved time, it also teleports a player directly to their body from anywhere in the world also saving possibly massive amounts of time. If you really want to dig into it you can look at even less obvious time savers like enchanters mana regen/return spells and how much downtime they shave off every group. 

    Why should anyone have such time saving abilities? Stealth/invis capable classes able to move past mobs, movespeed buffing classes able to move faster than others to save time, etc?

    phil85 said:

    Raidil said: I think the DL in pantheon will be the highest DPS tank and we have a mark to help the tank and reduce damage to anyone in group. The DL may have more base hp to combat the lower mitigation of not having the extra ac. It's possible it just takes more skill to tank well with an DL over the other tanks who knows tell the come out with the game.. so guess will see how it is in 2022

    The DL may(or may not) be a higher DPS tank, but VR did mention that tanks will not be able to compete with the DPS classes in damage output. So I wonder if the DL will be able to function as main tank for most encounters, or will it always need a paly or warrior around to help. Or, will the DL need extra healing to stay alive, requiring more downtime or an extra healer in group? I hope that it's only the raid encounters where the DL needs help and not the majority of group encounters. We'll see in 2022 I guess. 

    There is no reason DL wouldn't be able to stand next to warriors or paladins when it comes to tanking just because they wear chain. Unless VR ditches the idea of slower paced combat and mobs are routinely one-two shotting tanks then it stands to reason the DL's tools can more than make up for whatever (potentialy small) percentage mitigation difference there is between chain and plate, most notably with their massive lifestealing potential. 

     

    I completely agree with you. I'm actually surprised by the amount of people against Druid/Wizard teleports. I never played a druid in EQ but I loved them. I loved having them around, and each time some class joined your group you were excited for the "kit they bring". I was a Wizard and though I could port, the Druid ports were often to "better" locations, and it was awesome. That's what made games like that so good. Each class uniquly overpowered. In modern MMOs everyone is homogenoues and "balanced" so as to have nearly no flavor or "fun" at all. Everything has to be equivilient, counter-balanced. I say that it doesn't. It shouldn't. And I hope it isn't.

    Long live unique and powerful abilities that bring flavor and fantastical fun to the different classes!


    This post was edited by TomParker350 at September 19, 2019 10:27 PM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    September 19, 2019 10:42 PM PDT

    I haven't read this whole thread, haven't had time but I will, what I have read is pretty interesting. 

    There is one thing I want to inject until I can get back for more detail. And that based on the OP and his comments on the Wizard Druid portals. And how they effect "meaningful travel" 

    I don't think you guys are interpreting Meaningful Travel correctly. It's not just running past mobs, or taking the long route or running to a place first, before you port to it... all that is BARELY  meaningful. If thats all it was then run speed buffs would also destroy meaningful travel. Meaningful travel is any travel that adds something to this social MMO. Things that cause players to interact with each other have FAR more meaning than things that don't, like simply getting to a location by foot first. Player teleports do this, the non porting player needs to interact with a porting class, or a run speed buffing class or both to help with his travel, or he can make the long slow meaningless run.

    portal stones destroy meaningful travel, running down a long boring road is not meaningful travel, and I don't belive that solely is what the devs intend to be meaningful travel,

    I could be wrong... but just my thoughts on it.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at September 20, 2019 5:06 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    September 20, 2019 2:11 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    I haven't read this whole thread, haven't had time but I will, what I have read is pretty interesting. 

    There is one thing I want to inject until I can get back for more detail. And that based on the OP and his comments on the Wizard Druid portals. And how they effect "meaningful travel" 

    I don't think you guys are interpreting Meaningful Travel correctly. It's not just running past mobs, or taking the long route or running to a place first, before you port to it... all that is BARELY  meaninfull. If thats all it was then run speed buffs would also destroy meningfull travel. Meaningful travel is any travel that adds something to this social MMO. Things that cause players to interact with each other have FAR more meaning than things that don't, like simply getting to a location by foot first. Player teleports do this, the non porting player needs to interact with a porting class, or a run speed buffing class or both to help with his travel, or he can make the long slow meaningless run.

    portal stones do not meaningful travel, running down a long boring road is not meaningful travel, and I don't belive that solely is what the devs intend to be meaningful travel,

    I could be wrong... but just my thoughts on it.

    I agree, which is why I suggest teleport portals should be very much like boat/caravan ports/hubs.  People would turn up there before the scheduled time and would have the opportunity to talk to others doing the same thing maybe going the same way.  Crafters and vendors might spring up there or they might be placed in places where there are other things to do while you wait.

    If Wizards and Druids can just teleport themselves from anywhere to a portal hub then instantly on to a portal destination then take a group to another all you do is create an instant Taxi service for Wizards and Druids to profit from and everyone else with the money to treat like a convenience service.

    • 3852 posts
    September 20, 2019 6:25 AM PDT

    ((I don't think you guys are interpreting Meaningful Travel correctly.))

     

     

    I disagree. I think the purpose of slow travel is indeed to make the world seem larger by making it more slow and difficult to get from one place to another. I don't think it has a social aspect at all - it is inherently anti-social in that it makes grouping more difficult because it takes more time to get from where you are to where the group is or wishes to be.

    The developers, of course, recognize this and understand the conflict between a very large and slow world and the emphasis on being social in groups and guilds. 

    One compromise is the druid/wizard teleport ability. There are really only two reasons for this. One is that it was in EQ (not a bad reason as long as it makes sense to have it in Pantheon). One is that it adds social aspects.

    There will be other means of faster travel as well because of the same need to balance large world against social aspects. Perhaps caravans. Perhaps teleports that let you get to a dungeon where your group is adventuring but that return you where you started without letting you leave the dungeon - so they cannot be used to skip parts of the landscape. Teleports that avoid the worst aspect of modern "groupfinders" - the automated creating of "balanced" groups rather than letting players put groups together themselves after the game does no more than put them in contact with each other.


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 20, 2019 6:26 AM PDT
    • 73 posts
    September 20, 2019 6:51 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    There will be other means of faster travel as well because of the same need to balance large world against social aspects. Perhaps caravans. Perhaps teleports that let you get to a dungeon where your group is adventuring but that return you where you started without letting you leave the dungeon - so they cannot be used to skip parts of the landscape. Teleports that avoid the worst aspect of modern "groupfinders" - the automated creating of "balanced" groups rather than letting players put groups together themselves after the game does no more than put them in contact with each other.

    in my opinion that is practically the worst part of the modern group finders

    • 470 posts
    September 20, 2019 5:06 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    disposalist said:

    Personally, I think it would be best if teleport gateways worked like a boat or wagon service, but were obviously quicker in the actual transport.  Still on a schedule (every 30/60 minutes maybe?) and still from a terminal/gateway/whatever, but without the hours of staring at the sea/road.

    I agree with this.  If a gateway has 8 different portal destinations, let them rotate every 5 minutes, on a schedule.

    I get the sentiment here. But I have this feeling you're going to have a hard time finding a wizard or druid willing to port you if they've got to wait an hour to do it.

    If this is about like Nexus wizard time things kind of like the Nexus spire, just ignore me for not reading all the way back. =p


    This post was edited by Kratuk at September 20, 2019 5:09 PM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    September 21, 2019 12:09 AM PDT

    Kratuk said:

    oneADseven said:

    disposalist said:

    Personally, I think it would be best if teleport gateways worked like a boat or wagon service, but were obviously quicker in the actual transport.  Still on a schedule (every 30/60 minutes maybe?) and still from a terminal/gateway/whatever, but without the hours of staring at the sea/road.

    I agree with this.  If a gateway has 8 different portal destinations, let them rotate every 5 minutes, on a schedule.

    I get the sentiment here. But I have this feeling you're going to have a hard time finding a wizard or druid willing to port you if they've got to wait an hour to do it.

    If this is about like Nexus wizard time things kind of like the Nexus spire, just ignore me for not reading all the way back. =p

    The point is, if it works like a boat port, you don't need a wizard or a druid to teleport you.  Much fairer.  Much more meaningful.

    • 1479 posts
    September 21, 2019 1:43 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    ((I don't think you guys are interpreting Meaningful Travel correctly.))

     

     

    I disagree. I think the purpose of slow travel is indeed to make the world seem larger by making it more slow and difficult to get from one place to another. I don't think it has a social aspect at all - it is inherently anti-social in that it makes grouping more difficult because it takes more time to get from where you are to where the group is or wishes to be.

    The developers, of course, recognize this and understand the conflict between a very large and slow world and the emphasis on being social in groups and guilds. 

    One compromise is the druid/wizard teleport ability. There are really only two reasons for this. One is that it was in EQ (not a bad reason as long as it makes sense to have it in Pantheon). One is that it adds social aspects.

    There will be other means of faster travel as well because of the same need to balance large world against social aspects. Perhaps caravans. Perhaps teleports that let you get to a dungeon where your group is adventuring but that return you where you started without letting you leave the dungeon - so they cannot be used to skip parts of the landscape. Teleports that avoid the worst aspect of modern "groupfinders" - the automated creating of "balanced" groups rather than letting players put groups together themselves after the game does no more than put them in contact with each other.

     

    I don't think  dungeons should be considered as "a disconnected play session" like you hop in then out in the glimpse of an eye. I also think they should be reasonnably close to relative xp area so it doesn't feel completely unrelated.

    • 125 posts
    September 21, 2019 2:35 AM PDT

    You’ve all brought up some really good points,

    I’m not an avid RP nessessarly- but there is definitely a story going on in my head that contributes greatly to the immersion factor. The perils of travel has always been the backbone for my internal dialogue.

    PORTING: Even though not having an innate gate ability for every class is a QOL quarrel- it definitely contributes to the risks of travel. The story of your character being stranded amplifies the danger of traveling far in search of loot. It also helps alchemists gate potions be lucrative, bolstering the viability of tradeskills. I agree that all classes should have to do the port quest’s for each location- it makes sense from a lore standpoint too: a Druid or Wizard can only open the gate to space time and try to hold your hand as you go, but ultimately it’s just as much if not more so your effort to maintain the image of your destination and not get dragged into the void of time-space.

    Its worth sacing QOL to increase the risk/reward in my opinion- 

    SHIELD WARRIORS: I’ve always felt that the shield was as useless to the warrior as the bow was for ranger. I also kinda liked how certain SK/pally only OP 1h made using the shield viable to the two knights, as did OP war only shields-I really just like the idea and papper/rock/sissors of the design itself, how it made sure warriors wouldn’t dual wield op 1h. I like that there’s an effort being made to make sword n board incorporated into the warriors design. On the wall with this one.

    DL TANKING ROLE: Really like where VR going with the DL. I’ve always felt that even though the two knights have completly different spells they still fill the same gap, with a somewhat minor opportunity to either side heal or dps. I just imagine some wild encounters unfolding where a quick to acquire aggro tank is required. If a hard dps/high aggro tank wears chain, well it makes sense to me. Nobody likes a nerf though and most def if it’s your class.

    I just see the SK as some occult knight that was once a paladin or always at odd with them, a cut and dry counter part. Now that the DL wears chain I really see it as a new thing. More of a savage from a harsh environment who worships the violent reality of the world, vice another religous man who prays and makes pacts with celestial entities. 

    Not that I don’t like the SK/Pally counterparts, I love them. It’s a fresh direction though, a new take. Sofar I like it.

     

    • 128 posts
    September 21, 2019 6:51 AM PDT

    Albe said:

     

    I also played a monk and pulled for many years, when FD fails it usually means your dead, just because you can FD doesn't mean your safe, what if the mob camps your FD spot then your stuck, maybe you can flop and try to move away or maybe you die trying but I hope it works like EQ and you get to level your FD abilities.  I never thought it was overpowered, only really misused was when used to train a group of mobs out of an area, but then why is that not a valid strategy? Especially for corpse retrieval.  The monk flop was my goto for pulling corpses out of dangerous areas, so it should for sure have failure rate but it should be low and we should be able to progress that ability.  Same with Rogues, stealth is their thing then can not take hits, so it should be a powerful tool that takes skill to use.

     

     

    I'm a monk fan, so I'm biased here.

    Clearly you've played a monk, unlike my impression of some others in this thread, as you have identified the many, and serious,  drawbacks of FD.  I completely disagree with Nephels and Vjek's (sp?) assessment of FD being overpowered. The chance of failure even at max skill level made its use very scary, and often in dungeons and raids as puller you had only the one shot to pull it off before death. Even at 1 % failure, you're often pulling hundreds of times on a raid meaning multiple failures, death and exp loss. Lost many a level trying to corpse recovery another class's corpse (Karnor's castle...shiver) and doing a CR naked cuz you died the first time ..truly sucked.

    Stating that the "ability should be removed completely" would destroy the class.  Pretending to be dead is no where near as OP as a druid or wizard teleporting a party thousands of miles, or a cleric raising from the dead.   Just a rediculous suggestion IMHO.   

    • 1584 posts
    September 21, 2019 7:16 AM PDT

    Feign Death is one of the few abilities that is powerful and can directly render other players desire to enjoy the game, unlike clerics rezing and wizards and druids teleporting, these abilities don't hurt other people out of their grp. Though taking it out completely would hurt the class quite a bit, I believe having it even as close to as strong as it was in EQ would be just as big as a mistake.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at September 21, 2019 7:17 AM PDT
    • 34 posts
    September 21, 2019 7:55 AM PDT
    Porting: Reflecting upon this more, with the ideas presented, I still do not think portal type spells should be removed from the Druid / Wizard and given to an NPC entirely. With the expressed valid concerns, I would like to see something along the lines of the following which some of you suggested.

    1. 2-3 portal locations per continent for the wizard and druid. I feel that the limited amount of portal locations will aid in promoting healthy foot traffic around the world as the members travel to their final destinations from their portal arrival point, while at the same time preventing a 3 hour trip to reach your friends that are grouping.
    2. Require that every character do some sort of quest / ritual to become attuned to each wandering stone / gateway location before they can be teleported there. This would prevent druids and wizards from being able to be ported around to extend their available porting network with ease, while at the same time promoting even further foot traffic from characters and their alts as they explore to gain access to these locations.
    3. Give druids and wizards the self porting ability at mid-level range, and group porting at higher level range 40+.


    I understand that this structure would increase the “meeting time” of family and friends who create different races for their characters initially, but I think that is a necessary consequence they should be forced to consider when creating their characters. Additionally, when playing EQ from release through Velious, I never found the word to be small or lacking of people in my travels, and with these added restrictions I only see foot traffic increasing. Coupled with Visionary realms striving for multi-level content in zones as intended and gathering nodes being geographically based rather than tier based by level, I think the fear of the world becoming to small due to portals, while valid, is very premature. The removal of these abilities from players and given just to NPCs seems like the wrong direction to take, in my opinion. For clarification, I intend to main and spend a majority of my time playing an enchanter, as I did in EQ, and never felt that it was unfair that druids or wizards had porting abilities, and certainly never felt the need to have a pocket Druid / wizard. I love the unique utility it provides to these classes that they can share with others, and look forward to non-combat utility that will be provided by the other classes. The individuals that box characters will come up with various reasons for the secondary characters they create to justify their desired play style in a group-based game, and removing portals from wizards and druids will not deter them from it.

    • 128 posts
    September 21, 2019 8:00 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    Feign Death is one of the few abilities that is powerful and can directly render other players desire to enjoy the game, unlike clerics rezing and wizards and druids teleporting, these abilities don't hurt other people out of their grp. Though taking it out completely would hurt the class quite a bit, I believe having it even as close to as strong as it was in EQ would be just as big as a mistake.

     

    You must mean the ability that's been in Everquest 20+ years and is still there?

    The one that was added in Everquest 2 and is still there??

    Or the one Brad McQuaid added to Vanguard Saga of Heroes???

    This ability has tremendous positive influence for other classes.  They include Raid and Group pulling, Mob splitting and tagging, Corpse recovery etc etc.

    *IF* you are worried about malicious training (and I think that IS a legimate concern)  then code can be put in that the pulled mobs don't aggro on anyone but the puller. (Edit: or Monk's group, or Monk's Raid)  That's been done on other games..."you have established ownership" etc.  Other than that I don't see any possible way a pull can hurt another group.  Other classes of course can pull,or kite, root the mob and teleport away so the here- comes-my-bad-pull mechanics exist outside of the monk class.  But no one asks to remove kiting.  I do think Pantheon will enforce civil game conduct (or at least I hope so) and our in game reputations will become extremely important.

    SOE and now DayBreak, and Sigil did not see this FD ability as either overpowered or overly negative to their games, and why all three companies put the ability into game and left it there. They gave it to the Monk for their class defining ability.   Further SOE must have seen this as an overall positive thing, and I back this up by reminding you that other classes (for example Necromancers) ALSO got this ability, albeit in spell format.

    I'm not angry with you at all here, but I think you contention that this somehow ruins the game for other groups doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  I do think you'll find VG will do a superb job with the Monk class and I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.   We can't be class vs class here, or as they used to say "You've ruined your lands, you won't ruin mine!"   :)

    Finally, the absolute MOST important use of FD.  The Potty Pause Button.   I contend (without ANY facts of course) that the #1 use of FD was for Beer-Swilling Monks was as a safety Bio Break.    We are all a LOT older now and likely drink better beer. I know I'm visiting the loo more often nowadays :)

    This feature is a must Aradune!!!!!! 

     


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at September 21, 2019 8:27 AM PDT
    • 87 posts
    September 21, 2019 8:25 AM PDT

    Not sure why people are flaming druids/wizards teleport or monks fd ?? i mean they must have something nice in their sleeve (and yes other classes can ruin a party just look att edict of peace from cleric hmm wonder what will happen if i cast it on the other partys tank mwwhhaaa ) seriusly it is nice if i can get a teleport to my friends instead of walking like 2 hrs (real life time)

    just my opinion /=

    • 3237 posts
    September 21, 2019 8:33 AM PDT

    FD was by far the most broken ability in EQ2 and allowed for some incredibly destructive gameplay.  It allowed monks (fighter archetype) to be the best "scout" (a separate archetype reserved for rangers/assassins/troubadors/dirges/swashbucklers/brigands) in the game.  There were plenty of mobs that could see through invis or stealth but for whatever reason they were consistently fooled by monks/bruisers with FD.  This created a situation where a single monk could navigate (flop) through an entire raid zone faster than a full raid team (24 players) of max-progression players who actually cleared content along the way.  The amount of time that was saved due to FD-based content circumvention was astounding in that game.  These natural counters that Joppa has discussed are absolutely necessary for Pantheon if we want players to respect the environment.  Monks/Bruisers were also notorious for being able to train through zones and cherry-pick bosses, often at the expense of full groups.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 21, 2019 8:36 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 21, 2019 8:34 AM PDT

    Double post, please delete.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 21, 2019 8:34 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 21, 2019 8:44 AM PDT

    Aqua said: ... (and yes other classes can ruin a party just look att edict of peace from cleric hmm wonder what will happen if i cast it on the other partys tank mwwhhaaa ) ...

    Edict of Peace can only be cast on an enemy. "You pacify your enemy’s will for a short time " It's basically a lull/pacify from EQ1, to be used to split up a pull/group.

    FD is currently the only way that is being designed and planned to be maliciously used against other groups.  They have demonstrated training in their videos.
    If FD had already been adjusted in the dozens of ways that have been suggested on these forums, or even if the developers had said, at some point the past 5.5 years "We are going to fix FD, before launch, so it can't be used for malicious training of other groups"? Then no-one would care and there would be none of these concerns.  Similarly, if they hadn't demonstrated it in the videos as being used that way.
    Unfortunately, that's not their public design goal for FD.  Their current public design goals are both that it will be used for pulling (demonstrated in videos) and malicious training (demonstrated in videos).

    And if you're going to say, " vjek, they didn't mean that, they were just joking around about FD and/or training ".  Really?  They burned how many hours of 6 employees time and implemented the skill on the client and server, and scripted the demo, multiple times, and were just joking around, as though it isn't going to be possible?  Why would you put it in the game and make several videos of it, if it wasn't possible, or not their intent?  It's unfortunate that 20+ years have passed, and yet.. they're still going to allow one bored player to trivially kill off another group, with zero risk to themselves, in an entirely PvE game.

    They have had 5.5 years of time to gather and use some of the great ideas from the community to fix FD and/or training.  Nope!  Not going to do it!  It's like they're intentionally coding in social toxicity to spite the community for having better ideas, as ridiculous as that sounds.