Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Some thoughts and questions after the September Newsletter

    • 1785 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:49 AM PDT

    I wanted to express some thoughts and concerns I have after reading the September newsletter, especially the "Burning Questions" section.  This thread isn't intended to be negative or a dumping ground for people to complain about a perceived lack of information.  What I'm aiming for is simply to talk about some of the things that worry me for long-term balance in Pantheon, and some interesting takeaways I found in the newsletter.  It's my hope that this will generate good discussion in the community, and maybe we'll see some followup from VR in response to that.

    Anyway, here are the things that stuck out to me or that I am concerned about:

    Druid and Wizard Teleports

    It was nice to get more information about how Druids and Wizards earn their teleports, but I am still very concerned that over time, druid and wizard teleports will contribute to the death of meaningful travel in Terminus.  The reason for this is that I don't see a requirement that group members have to have visited the location first - only the caster of the teleport.

    If this is the case, what I see happening is that initially when the game launches, finding a druid or wizard to teleport you will be a very rare occurrence.  But as the first wave of those druids and wizards get their teleports unlocked, it will become more and more common.  With the best of intentions, those first druids and wizards will likely help other druids and wizards get their unlocks.  As more and more druids and wizards gain the ability, travel by "taxi" will become a normal and accepted thing.

    The point of meaningful travel is to make the size of the world matter - in terms of where you base your character, where you buy and sell goods, where you choose to adventure in any given play session.  When you can type something in a chat channel or a discord, meet up with another player, and get whisked halfway around the world to a place you have never been before in 10 minutes, it works against that.  It may take a few years before it becomes a big problem, but eventually, travel by 'port' will be the norm, and much of the world outside of cities, dungeons, and various points of interest will simply not be used by many players.

    I don't think this is an unsolvable problem and I don't think that we have to throw out the concept of group teleports entirely either.  But I think there needs to be something more to mitigate this and keep travel meaningful, even 3-4 years after launch.

    Warriors and Shields

    I like seeing that warriors will have abilities based on using shields both offensively and defensively.  However, I also think warriors should get the choice NOT to use a shield.

    I am a big fan of diversity within classes, and when it comes to martial classes like warriors, I feel like weapon selection is a great way to accomplish that.  In my mind, I imagine the warrior who has specialized in learning how to use their shield, and that's awesome.  But I also imagine the warrior who has specialized in wielding two weapons, or in using a spear.  I feel that ALL of these styles should be viable choices for a warrior.  They should ALL take effort and time to learn, but reward the warrior with increased combat effectiveness in different ways.  Otherwise, we wind up in a situation where all warriors feel a bit more one-dimensional.  "Yup, they're the sword and board tank".  I would like Pantheon to avoid that for every class.

    It should go without saying that I feel this way for other classes as well.  So for example, I wouldn't want to see every paladin running around with a big two-handed blade.  I'd want to see variety and diversity there as well - including shields.

    Rogues and Stealth

    I'm excited to hear that stealth has been reworked but I really want to know more about it now too.  Stealth is one of those things that is really hard to balance in MMOs - it can either end up being super-powerful or end up being relatively useless for the rogue.  This may be the sort of thing that we have to wait to see in action in Alpha or Beta, but it would be nice to hear more about it how they plan to keep stealth useful in many places without making it a way for rogues to do things like sneak down to the bottom of the dungeon to just before the boss room and then arrange to summon their group in.

    Monks and Feign Death

    I was really glad to see Joppa try to approach this question since it's been hotly debated in the community.  I think using dispositions as counters to feign death is a good first step, but I still worry that the ability is going to make monks effectively invincible in some areas.  I would really like to see Feign Death have a detection mechanic in the same way that it appears Stealth will.  Maybe it does, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I think relying on dispositions alone is going to result in things like "For these dungeons, you can have a monk pull, but in these other dungeons you want to have a rogue do it instead because of the dispositions that spawn".  Instead of it always being a sure thing that Feign Death works or that it fails, I'd rather see it have a *chance* to be seen through by any mob, and those dispositions make that chance higher - again, similar to how I think stealth detection will work.  Maybe this is already the plan and I'm worried for nothing, but I still feel like Feign Death is either going to be either overpowered or useless depending on where the monk is, based on what I know right now.

    Shamans and Walk the Ages

    "Another great aspect of this ability is that it will clear the Shaman’s aggro when used."

    A group with a shaman healing is preparing to fight a boss in a dungeon.  The shaman uses Walk the Ages at a safe spot just outside the door to the boss's room.  The fight is going poorly, and the Shaman activates Walk the Ages and pops up in the safe spot, all his aggro cleared.  He then resurrects the rest of the group via other abilities and they try again.

    Does this ability allow groups with shamans to effectively bypass the requirement to fight their way back to a location if they take on a fight and it doesn't go well?  I feel like it might.

    This might be a small thing but if we assume that these sorts of fights are going to be somewhat contested by players, it just feels a little too powerful.  To be clear, I don't have a problem in principle with a shaman being able to essentially self-evac to somewhere in the zone.  What I'm worried about is that without some kind of minimum distance for the aggro wipe, it essentially allows the party to hit the reset button on a fight with very little penalty other than the time spent to get everyone back up.

    Weapons of Terminus

    It was neat to see all the weapon concept art and I love a variety of weapons.  I just wanted to say that it would be great to see some examples of these different weapons shown on character models so we could get a sense of how they might look in game.

    Janis Sova's Story

    Apart from all the juicy lore, I was intrigued by the repeated references to human settlements outside Thronefast.  Please please please please can we get a new world atlas graphic sometime soon?  I love the idea of races having multiple settlements in different regions of Terminus, and the home city just happens to be one of those settlements - maybe the largest, maybe not. :)


    This post was edited by Nephele at September 18, 2019 9:52 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:04 AM PDT

    i'll repost and refine this here since it was straying a bit from the og thread

     

    there's alot of simple ways to solve the gateway/stone deal.

     

    start with less gates/stones.

    like cooking you can always add seasoning, but you can't remove it.

     

    change group gateway/stone usage have a reagent only obtained via endgame raids or dungeons that is not transferable.

     

    druid/wizard then wouldn't want to nor would use gate/stone willy nilly.  if a guild invested in that then more power to them.

    • 34 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:23 AM PDT

    In regards to the Wizard gates and Druid stones, from the way I’m reading anyways, it seems that characters will have to run to gateways or wandering stones in order to be able to port (minus the wizards and druids themselves who look like they will get a quick jump there). I think this is one great step to keeping meaningful travel in the game without crippling travel time. If you’ve finished with a dungeon group and want to go to town to sell, you won’t be able to just ask a wiz/Druid in your current zone to port you, you will have to prepare yourself to travel to the nearest gateway / stones, which may be a couple of zones away. You will constantly be seeing people in your travels going to and from these locations which will be great to see. For added measure, they can make group teleports not be available until higher level, with certain locations requiring a druid or wizard be of a certain level to utilize. I will say though, I would like to see cross-ocean teleporting be a max level skill, with maybe even a quest component to achieve it, to preserve boat and gnome air travel between continents.


    This post was edited by Mentira at September 18, 2019 10:26 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:27 AM PDT

    poof*


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at September 18, 2019 10:31 AM PDT
    • 34 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:32 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    Mentira said: In regards to the Wizard gates and Druid stones, from the way I’m reading anyways, it seems that characters will have to run to gateways or wandering stones in order to be able to port (minus the wizards and druids themselves who look like they will get a quick jump there). I think this is one great step to keeping meaningful travel in the game without crippling travel time. If you’ve finished with a dungeon group and want to go to town to sell, you won’t be able to just ask a wiz/Druid in your current zone to port you, you will have to prepare yourself to travel to the nearest gateway / stones, which may be a couple of zones away. You will constantly be seeing people in your travels going to and from these locations which will be great to see. For added measure, they can make group teleports not be available until higher level, with certain locations requiring a druid or wizard be of a certain level to utilize. I will say though, I would like to see cross-ocean teleporting be a max level skill, with maybe even a quest component to achieve it, to preserve boat and gnome air travel between continents.

     

    i'd still need a wizard/druid to activate teh gateway/stone

     

    Right! So let's say you know a Wondering Stones are located 3 zones away, and the nearest city is 6 zones away. If you head to the stones, you take the chance of no druids being in the vacinity at that time! I think with a few tweaks, this system will be great.

    • 1921 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:34 AM PDT

    Druid and Wizard Teleports
    I fully expect taxis to be a thing, given what they've outlined.
    I think that the economic issues from teleportation can be resolved without holding back the social benefits, but it will require unavoidable temporal delays in whatever marketplace solution they implement.  They have not indicated this will be a thing, so it remains an outstanding concern, for me.
    I have no issue with having to reach a location myself, at least once, before I can port to, or be ported to, that location. Even so, that's a trivial speedbump, although I see the value for a few reasons.
    A combination of other poorly implemented systems might create the desire to have level 1 alts escorted into extraordinarily dangerous areas they have absolutely no intended reason to be there.  I hope that's not the case, but it would address those situations, in that the Alt would have to have visited that area previously, and couldn't simply be ported there to loot a NO-DROP recipe, for example, in a fight they weren't present for, or worse, a NO-DROP epic item, or even worse, an item to MQ.

    Warriors and Shields
    Agreed on the no-shield option.  Also would like to see more information on these "dynamic" abilities they alluded to, for Warriors.  I've seen dynamic abilities done well, and done poorly, so I'm curious what their goals are for this mechanic.  Are these dynamic abilities going to be unique, for Warriors?  If not, then... does everyone get them?

    Rogues and Stealth
    Very short on details here, and what the heck is an "Opportunity"?  I've never seen this upper case word before in reference to Rogues, but it looks like.. maybe? they're intended to use consumables or actions of some kind to allow for special attacks?  If that's tied to endurance.. well, I hope it's more a synergy thing with other classes rather than just a two step combat-chain system.
    I'm also not a fan of requiring expensive or limited consumables for melee combat, but I've been burned badly by playing a Rogue in EQ1 from launch, so my bias is showing.
    Regarding stealth, the detection thing is interesting.  Hopefully it will lead to distraction, luring, and tempting, and more abilities like Pressurized Flask, but for all classes via craftable consumables, plus uniques/effectives per enemy race.  Also would be nice to see different types of detection, other than stealth.

    Monks and Feign Death
    Nothing new here, same issues as previously.  Malicious training still permitted, and it appears their current design goal is to continue to allow FD to be a pulling tool, first, rather than a chance to escape death, sometimes.  Until they significantly adjust this ability, all the dispositions in the world won't stop it from being used for unavoidable/no-opt-out PvP in a PvE game.  Honestly, I wish they would just remove the ability and give Monks more distraction, luring, and tempting abilities as skills if they want them to be pullers.  It's one of a very short list of abilities that can be used to kill off an entire group with no repercussions, and I hate that it's going to be in the game, because it will be used that way 24x7, as it is in EQ1.

    Shamans and Walk the Ages
    Agreed on all points.  Combine this with the same percentage-based mana regen in or out of combat?  Someone on the dev team REALLY wants Shaman to be overpowered. :)

    Weapons of Terminus
    Agreed on all points.

    Janis Sova's Story
    Agreed on all points.

    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:34 AM PDT

    Mentira said: 

    Right! So let's say you know a Wondering Stones are located 3 zones away, and the nearest city is 6 zones away. If you head to the stones, you take the chance of no druids being in the vacinity at that time! I think with a few tweaks, this system will be great.

    XD yea i had to read what you were saying a couple of times.  it was translating into my head weird lol.  totally fine with this ^.^


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at September 18, 2019 10:35 AM PDT
    • 411 posts
    September 18, 2019 11:35 AM PDT

    I have been hoping for some time that the teleportion gateways would be A-B rather than A-anywhere. After reading the description I still don't know what direction they're going in, but I would imagine it's A-anywhere. If that's the approach, then I think that's sad since over time playing a game you lose all sense of world-scale geographic regionality. If teleportation becomes the norm, then that drives how the world is seen.

    The gameworld begins to feel like little islands surrounding the local gateway. It won't matter anymore that zone X and Y are on the same continent. They will only feel connected if their nearest gateway is the same. This is clearly a bit of an exaggeration, but in my experience it has kind of felt this way.

    I remain a bit hopeful that it can be A-B style portals given that a UI will be necessary to show their network, but that's probably just me reading into things based on my own desires.

    Even if it is A-anywhere, by forcing people to run to the gateways to use them it's already much better than anywhere-anywhere. The gateways will be hubs where people of all levels will run into one another.

    • 73 posts
    September 18, 2019 12:29 PM PDT

    I love it seems that the game is on the path of balancing with the inequality between classes

    you have to go to a distant dangerous dungeon and you need to hire a healer for your group
    Option A contract to a druid instead of taking 60 minutes to reach the dungeon we will arrive in 20 min and if we wipe we would also return quickly
    Option B contract with a shaman we will have to travel 60 minutes but if we wipe he could be saved and resurrected without return of exp or with a small
    Option C contract to a cleric we will have to travel 60 minutes and if we die we would have to do it again but the cleric will resurrect us with a large portion of the lost experience

    With respect to the tps I see no problem from my point of view in the eq it was not a problem until they started putting Tp portals for everyone

    and the FD I see it well all classes can do malicious training (which are not allowed) has nothing to do with the Fd but with the bad people and percent do not see danger of malicious training with the skill of the shaman that seems to like you so much ( I like it too)

    • 23 posts
    September 18, 2019 5:09 PM PDT
    I'll be honest , I was going to main a warrior because that was my first EQ character and tanking is somthing I enjoy , but now I'll be looking at something else because I don't want to be stuck with a sword and board.
    • 14 posts
    September 18, 2019 5:28 PM PDT

    I would only like to add to what has already been expressed.  There needs to be some diversity within a class.  Getting stuck to just always be the tank for example because you chose to play a war seems very old school, which is fine to a point.  I would like to see a warrior be able to evolove into being a Tanking Warrior vs a DSP Warrior or the option to do both depending on what equipment you gear.  (After all Warriors are battle masters engaged in conflict! not just tank you very much!

     

    Definition of warrior

     

    a person engaged or experienced in warfare
    broadly a person engaged in some struggle or conflict

     


    This post was edited by Bikmer at September 18, 2019 5:31 PM PDT
    • 368 posts
    September 18, 2019 6:57 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I wanted to express some thoughts and concerns I have after reading the September newsletter, especially the "Burning Questions" section.  This thread isn't intended to be negative or a dumping ground for people to complain about a perceived lack of information.  What I'm aiming for is simply to talk about some of the things that worry me for long-term balance in Pantheon, and some interesting takeaways I found in the newsletter.  It's my hope that this will generate good discussion in the community, and maybe we'll see some followup from VR in response to that.

    Anyway, here are the things that stuck out to me or that I am concerned about:

    Druid and Wizard Teleports

    It was nice to get more information about how Druids and Wizards earn their teleports, but I am still very concerned that over time, druid and wizard teleports will contribute to the death of meaningful travel in Terminus.  The reason for this is that I don't see a requirement that group members have to have visited the location first - only the caster of the teleport.

    If this is the case, what I see happening is that initially when the game launches, finding a druid or wizard to teleport you will be a very rare occurrence.  But as the first wave of those druids and wizards get their teleports unlocked, it will become more and more common.  With the best of intentions, those first druids and wizards will likely help other druids and wizards get their unlocks.  As more and more druids and wizards gain the ability, travel by "taxi" will become a normal and accepted thing.

    The point of meaningful travel is to make the size of the world matter - in terms of where you base your character, where you buy and sell goods, where you choose to adventure in any given play session.  When you can type something in a chat channel or a discord, meet up with another player, and get whisked halfway around the world to a place you have never been before in 10 minutes, it works against that.  It may take a few years before it becomes a big problem, but eventually, travel by 'port' will be the norm, and much of the world outside of cities, dungeons, and various points of interest will simply not be used by many players.

    I don't think this is an unsolvable problem and I don't think that we have to throw out the concept of group teleports entirely either.  But I think there needs to be something more to mitigate this and keep travel meaningful, even 3-4 years after launch.

    I do not see this as an issue. If its anything like EQ it is not like the ports are going to be in every zone. And its not like your going to have ports to all dungeon entrances, cities, pick-a-location etc. 

    • 80 posts
    September 18, 2019 8:47 PM PDT
    I have no problems with anything they outlined especially the ports. They are a thing in these games you had better get used to that now. No one wants to walk for half an hour to get everywhere that gets old fast and did in EQ as well.
    • 247 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:34 PM PDT
    So I was not impressed with the newsletter at all. And as for the wizards and druids on teleport they can take a note from d&d and a note from eq with the cleric And how it can work simple You drew it or wizard can we teleport so much weight has a glove and level they can carry more weight AKA they would only be able to originally carry themselves plus X-Men awake until I get up to the point where they can carry other people. In the note they could take from the clerics from EQ is they had to use different gems for their HP buffs they can make a spell components for teleportation and make a different one for single person or multi-person and make those components expensive meaning there'll be less people using wizards for travel because of the cost. List of limit The taxi issue because of the cost and the level they've have to be. Also they can make the group components more rare to find
    • 65 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:18 PM PDT

    I mained a shadow knight in EQ 1. I am a bit confused about the DL in Pantheon. Clearly they want the DL to be the superior tank for magical defense.  I don't understand why the DL is unable to wear plate and why the paladin will be a better tank than the DL overall. Do they expect the DL to run around the battlefield sheilding squishies from magical attacks, while the paladin and warriors do the real tanking? 


    This post was edited by phil85 at September 19, 2019 7:43 AM PDT
    • 247 posts
    September 18, 2019 11:11 PM PDT
    I think the DL in pantheon will be the highest DPS tank and we have a mark to help the tank and reduce damage to anyone in group. The DL may have more base hp to combat the lower mitigation of not having the extra ac. It's possible it just takes more skill to tank well with an DL over the other tanks who knows tell the come out with the game.. so guess will see how it is in 2022
    • 560 posts
    September 19, 2019 12:03 AM PDT

    Reading most of the posts in here makes me wonder what people want. EQ had enough meaningful travel in my mind even as a wizard. I see no reason to make Pantheon harder to get around than EQ. Everything in the news letter sounded great to me. I am glad the developers are making the game and not the fans.

    I found the complaints about the Warriors being a board and sword fighter to be interesting. I get where people are coming from on this one. But it happens I love a shield and have always been annoyed I could not justify its use in all situations. There description makes me more interested in playing a Warriors.

    • 1019 posts
    September 19, 2019 5:32 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Druid and Wizard Teleports

    It was nice to get more information about how Druids and Wizards earn their teleports, but I am still very concerned that over time, druid and wizard teleports will contribute to the death of meaningful travel in Terminus.  The reason for this is that I don't see a requirement that group members have to have visited the location first - only the caster of the teleport.

    I'm hoping Druids and Wizards aren't the only ones that have to do a quest to use them.  I understand that these two need to do a quest to get access to them and use them, but I'm also hoping that any other class characters that want to be teleported by Wizards or Druids have to do a quest for those locations also.

    • 1019 posts
    September 19, 2019 5:33 AM PDT

    phil85 said:

    I mained a shadow knight in EQ 1. I am a bit confused about the SK in Pantheon. Clearly they want the SK to be the superior tank for magical defense.  I don't understand why the SK is unable to wear plate and why the paladin will be a better tank than the SK overall. Do they expect the SK to run around the battlefield sheilding squishies from magical attacks, while the paladin and warriors do the real tanking? 

    Dire Lord.  Not SK.

    • 73 posts
    September 19, 2019 6:05 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    Nephele said:

    Druid and Wizard Teleports

    It was nice to get more information about how Druids and Wizards earn their teleports, but I am still very concerned that over time, druid and wizard teleports will contribute to the death of meaningful travel in Terminus.  The reason for this is that I don't see a requirement that group members have to have visited the location first - only the caster of the teleport.

    I'm hoping Druids and Wizards aren't the only ones that have to do a quest to use them.  I understand that these two need to do a quest to get access to them and use them, but I'm also hoping that any other class characters that want to be teleported by Wizards or Druids have to do a quest for those locations also.

    each class will have to quest their own skills
    it is absurd that a class has to do a quest to be helped by the ability of another class
    would it be logical for classes that use mana to have to make a quest for an enchanter to give them a buff of mana regen? (in case it has one)
    Or that the other classes have to do a quest to receive an AC HP buff or a clerical REZ?

    • 1019 posts
    September 19, 2019 6:14 AM PDT

    Elki said:

    it is absurd that a class has to do a quest to be helped by the ability of another class would it be logical for classes that use mana to have to make a quest for an enchanter to give them a buff of mana regen? (in case it has one).  Or that the other classes have to do a quest to receive an AC HP buff or a clerical REZ?

    I think it is logical reasoning that the Gatekeeper of the Stones (or whatever he was called) would require anyone that uses the stone to complete a quest first.

    • 3237 posts
    September 19, 2019 6:32 AM PDT

    Elki said:

    each class will have to quest their own skills
    it is absurd that a class has to do a quest to be helped by the ability of another class
    would it be logical for classes that use mana to have to make a quest for an enchanter to give them a buff of mana regen? (in case it has one)
    Or that the other classes have to do a quest to receive an AC HP buff or a clerical REZ?

    It's actually not absurd at all.  Trying to compare fast travel to buffs is a serious stretch.  From the FAQ:

    19.0 What can you tell me about travel in Pantheon? Will there be teleportation? Will there be any limits or restrictions?

    Pantheon will have meaningful travel -- players will need to travel to new areas and face the dangers that come with such a journey.  That said, there will be spells like 'Call of the Hero', which summons an ally to your side if they are grouped with you.  There will also be a caravan-like system, where a player can log out whilst in a group and then log back in and still be with the group, even if that group has moved.  There will also be additional ways to help groups come together and stay together.  But it's also important to note that this doesn't mean people will be able to travel as they please, to anywhere in the world, at a whim; especially if they haven't traveled there by foot or horse at least once (e.g. players will need to unlock certain regions by traveling there first).  More details to come as we get closer to beta and launch.

    Kittik said:

    I think it is logical reasoning that the Gatekeeper of the Stones (or whatever he was called) would require anyone that uses the stone to complete a quest first.

    Perfectly logical, IMO.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 19, 2019 6:32 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    September 19, 2019 6:58 AM PDT

    For something as fundamental as being able to easily travel the world, I'm still concerned that two classes get 'control' of this for seemingly no other reason than traditional class definitions.

    What is the balancing downside to Wizards and Druids that they should get such an amazing travel ability?

    Most people are saying that everyeone who wants to use travel routes should do a quest or at least have to visit them.  I agree.  But then every class should be able to use them without waiting for, begging for or more likely paying for a Wizard or Druid to click a hotbar button.

    An exacerbating point of concern from the newsletter: "At higher levels, Druids/Wizards will be able to teleport themselves to the primary Gateway or Wandering Stone in order to access the network more quickly".  In other words they don't even have to be at a gateway to teleport around the world.  In EQ at least they had to evac to get near a gateway and then do a bit of running, or they had to waste their time sitting at a gateway offering taxi services.  Now TeleTaxis will be able to be at your gateway in seconds no matter what they were doing.

    Sounds like it will be like EQ (which trivialised travel quite badly) but worse.  Instant worldwide taxi service as long as you are a Wizard, Druid or rich enough to tempt one out of a dungeon.

    /whisper MrWizTaxi "100 coins if you abandon your group and TP me now!"

    Personally, I think it would be best if teleport gateways worked like a boat or wagon service, but were obviously quicker in the actual transport.  Still on a schedule (every 30/60 minutes maybe?) and still from a terminal/gateway/whatever, but without the hours of staring at the sea/road.  And *all* people/classes should be able to pay/quest/whatever the gateway keeper in order to use them.  If wizards/druids must have some kind of teleport ability (not sure why, but if they must) then perhaps make it so they can teleport *to* particular terminals, but still must use the schedule and pay the keeper.


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 19, 2019 7:15 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 19, 2019 7:26 AM PDT

    disposalist said: ... What is the balancing downside to Wizards and Druids that they should get such an amazing travel ability? ...
    It's interesting you should bring that up.
    Historically, Druids and Wizards combat value was balanced around their non-combat teleportation.  It was included in every "combat adjustment" effort to balance them as a class.
    Unfortunately, it shouldn't be.  Class value in combat should look at combat abilities, spells, and similar, only.
    If you think of it in the reverse, you can see how it's illogical:  Let's balance non-combat abilities based on what a class can do in combat?  Woah, no. stop, why would you do that?
    Yet: Let's balance combat abilities based on what a class can do out of combat: Ok, sounds good!

    Objectively the two should be separate, yet emotionally and practically, they never are.
    In my opinion, if teleportation as a concept is going to be in the game, and you want the most flexibility in content generation, then EQ1's Origin ability is the end result.  You can return to your point of origin before you login, and while in-game once every 15-20 minutes.  Doesn't matter what you class is.  As long as you're out of combat, you can do that.  Eliminates all /stuck tickets, completely. 
    Coupled with your items never leaving your body, the burden on CS is reduced to zero for more than half of the typical tickets.  When you're forced to pay actual humans minimum wage 24x7, you start to re-consider in-game GM's and ticket burden starts to become a very high priority.

    Otherwise, disposalist, as you've correctly pointed out, Wizards & Druids will forever be considered a "pocket" class, and druids in Pantheon even more, since they get a rez.  A max level Druid will be an expectation, after the first one reaches max level.  Dual boxing a Druid is what most of the players in my guild are planning, as their first run through.  It will then be used to ease or remove all of the typical penalties of the leveling process.  Do I wish it was this way?  No.  But, this is the public design goal for Pantheon, today, so we're planning on using it.

    Personally, I don't see any reason why teleportation scrolls couldn't completely replace the ability of druids and wizards to move groups or individuals around the world, in addition to an "Origin" type ability for all classes to alleviate the CS burden. 
    Using consumables for fast travel, to me, seems like a great tuning knob to put in place.  I would also use evac scrolls for the same reason.  Anyone could have one, and anyone could use it to evac their entire group. 
    Permit half of the PC crafters to make evac effect objects, or allow it to be a clicky effect imbued on arbitrary crafted items with a respectable cooldown.. 
    Or have them be rechargeable items, and you have to use faction credit to recharge them. 
    Or put all the scrolls/charged-items (personal teleport, group teleport, evac) on NPC faction vendors, and make them expensive, so players have to donate, sacrifice, or similar from their adventuring to obtain them.

    I simply see it as a solved problem, once VR decided to have teleportation of any kind in the game.  There are many ways to solve the problem elegantly, they're just (currently) going with the traditional EQ1 route, with all it's known problems.  At some point, playing the game has to be fun.  The last thing I want is to have Pantheon be a running simulator like PFO.

    • 65 posts
    September 19, 2019 7:49 AM PDT

    Raidil said: I think the DL in pantheon will be the highest DPS tank and we have a mark to help the tank and reduce damage to anyone in group. The DL may have more base hp to combat the lower mitigation of not having the extra ac. It's possible it just takes more skill to tank well with an DL over the other tanks who knows tell the come out with the game.. so guess will see how it is in 2022

    The DL may(or may not) be a higher DPS tank, but VR did mention that tanks will not be able to compete with the DPS classes in damage output. So I wonder if the DL will be able to function as main tank for most encounters, or will it always need a paly or warrior around to help. Or, will the DL need extra healing to stay alive, requiring more downtime or an extra healer in group? I hope that it's only the raid encounters where the DL needs help and not the majority of group encounters. We'll see in 2022 I guess.