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The September Newsletter is here!

    • 25 posts
    September 21, 2019 5:23 AM PDT

    The more of these newsletters that are released, and the more of these reactions I see, the more I begin to side with the people that says "gamers" and the gaming community have changed too much in the last 20 years for a game like this to ever realize its intent. I expected this community to be different, but this whole thread is pretty sad, seeing Joppa and VR's good efforts to give us information without spoiling anything be met with acrimony and doubt.

    Keep up the good work guys, at least to some of us it is clear the game is progressing, and excellence doesn't happen overnight. Can't wait to see it all in action soon.

    • 37 posts
    September 21, 2019 8:59 AM PDT

    Great newsletter, guys and gals. I really like the new feature. Always love the lore section, too. Keep 'em coming! 


    This post was edited by Eriugena at September 21, 2019 9:02 AM PDT
    • 326 posts
    September 21, 2019 4:20 PM PDT

    Grime said:

     

     

     

    prices are high, to make it worth taking time from the game to slap some high res bran spankin new character painting on a tee shirt is worth that much.

    Watch VR take the store down after the sale is over b/c of feedback and never offer these designs again.

    Bet you’ll be kicking yourself for not getting that “original first edition limited janis sofa” tee shirt.

     

    fine, you win. I bought the shirt. Black. Janis Sofa and all. :)


    This post was edited by Flapp at September 21, 2019 4:23 PM PDT
    • 683 posts
    September 21, 2019 5:39 PM PDT

    Grime said:

    Darch said:

     

    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pledge

    @Grime - You are correct, we pledged, that is what I stated.  My post was in no way a "Rost of VR!" but instead a simple statement that we did not "donate" our money, but we "pledged" (view above link to understand what that is) and people that are concerned with feedback have every right to their concerns.  Simply stating that "you donated so shut up" is the absolute wrong response.

    Goodness my dude how long did you search independent dictionary sites to find that definition? It’s not ever on the first page of google search for “pledge definition.

    Here is man unarguable definition:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pledge

    You're talking about the noun pledge, I’m pretty sure VR  is using the verb pledge. However it could be the noun.

    So let’s say it is the noun, it was disclosed on facebook a long time ago that its funded to completion so they did an addition drive to raise money to expand the team- and they did.

    Thats a record of keeping pledges. 

    As far as your impatience goes:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/aradune/status/419213075472842752

    I really wish you would stop putting words into my mouth... calling me impatient and making other derogatory comments toward others when I was simply making a legal correction to one person's comment (Iksar's comment) about the "legal" difference between a pledge and a donation.  

    Law students don't use webster's dictionary to litigate contractural disputes... Our monetary contribution could be related to "a record of keeping" (although it isn't) that will be taxed because it is being used to pay salaries.  This was not a donation, but an exchange of monies for a service/promise i.e. "pledge".  You do not receive rewards for donations, and donations are tax deductable, this money will be or has been taxed or is generating interest somewhere.

    i.e. Nowhere on this site does it mention anything about a "donation": https://pantheonmmo.com/join/Pantheon+Rise+of+the+Fallen+The+9+Races+of+TerminusWe ; One of many specific lines to take note of is "Your contributions directly support the development of the game and you receive the Rewards of the Faithful!"  

    With that said, (as I have said before) VR did not put any timelines/dates on their end of the pledge so people have no choice but to wait for their day in the sun.  If VR did commit to a hard date (without stating the caviats like they already have with statements like "we maintain the right to change dates at any time) and missed that deadline , THEN they would be under pressure.  But they are doing everything fine.  That still doesn't mean that people won't want or don't deserve tangible feedback on progress being made.

    Add:  If people want to complain on these forums, they literally paid for the right to, as long as they are cordial about it.

    Add #2:  Also, some of the people on these forums are literal investors: http://visionaryrealms.com/company/investors/ ;(one of the options through the pledge link above).


    This post was edited by Darch at September 21, 2019 6:10 PM PDT
    • 1180 posts
    September 21, 2019 5:44 PM PDT

    Yep, it's unfortunate, to Darch's point, from what I've seen?
    The only thing kickstarter and similar non-studio, non-publisher, non-milestone-funding-driven, independent, small-scale, similar-to-VR-Pantheon endeavors have done is remove all the accountability from software developers, and let them produce (or not) entirely without the slightest shred of legal or financial responsiblity.

    • 107 posts
    September 21, 2019 9:31 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    Grime said:

    Darch said:

     

    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pledge

    @Grime - You are correct, we pledged, that is what I stated.  My post was in no way a "Rost of VR!" but instead a simple statement that we did not "donate" our money, but we "pledged" (view above link to understand what that is) and people that are concerned with feedback have every right to their concerns.  Simply stating that "you donated so shut up" is the absolute wrong response.

    Goodness my dude how long did you search independent dictionary sites to find that definition? It’s not ever on the first page of google search for “pledge definition.

    Here is man unarguable definition:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pledge

    You're talking about the noun pledge, I’m pretty sure VR  is using the verb pledge. However it could be the noun.

    So let’s say it is the noun, it was disclosed on facebook a long time ago that its funded to completion so they did an addition drive to raise money to expand the team- and they did.

    Thats a record of keeping pledges. 

    As far as your impatience goes:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/aradune/status/419213075472842752

    I really wish you would stop putting words into my mouth... calling me impatient and making other derogatory comments toward others when I was simply making a legal correction to one person's comment (Iksar's comment) about the "legal" difference between a pledge and a donation.  

    Law students don't use webster's dictionary to litigate contractural disputes... Our monetary contribution could be related to "a record of keeping" (although it isn't) that will be taxed because it is being used to pay salaries.  This was not a donation, but an exchange of monies for a service/promise i.e. "pledge".  You do not receive rewards for donations, and donations are tax deductable, this money will be or has been taxed or is generating interest somewhere.

    i.e. Nowhere on this site does it mention anything about a "donation": https://pantheonmmo.com/join/Pantheon+Rise+of+the+Fallen+The+9+Races+of+TerminusWe ; One of many specific lines to take note of is "Your contributions directly support the development of the game and you receive the Rewards of the Faithful!"  

    With that said, (as I have said before) VR did not put any timelines/dates on their end of the pledge so people have no choice but to wait for their day in the sun.  If VR did commit to a hard date (without stating the caviats like they already have with statements like "we maintain the right to change dates at any time) and missed that deadline , THEN they would be under pressure.  But they are doing everything fine.  That still doesn't mean that people won't want or don't deserve tangible feedback on progress being made.

    Add:  If people want to complain on these forums, they literally paid for the right to, as long as they are cordial about it.

    Add #2:  Also, some of the people on these forums are literal investors: http://visionaryrealms.com/company/investors/ ;(one of the options through the pledge link above).

    I was gonna let this board go for the 4th time because I don’t feel like researching any of that. Also has absolutly nothing to do with the September newsletter. Then you finished with saying investors are on the supports forum slandering their own investment instead of calling the CEO

    • 107 posts
    September 22, 2019 7:54 AM PDT

    Flapp said:

    Grime said:

     

     

     

    prices are high, to make it worth taking time from the game to slap some high res bran spankin new character painting on a tee shirt is worth that much.

    Watch VR take the store down after the sale is over b/c of feedback and never offer these designs again.

    Bet you’ll be kicking yourself for not getting that “original first edition limited janis sofa” tee shirt.

     

    fine, you win. I bought the shirt. Black. Janis Sofa and all. :)

    Heck yeah flapp!! Glad you came around! You won’t regret it. VR has stated that there’s going to be some radio silence during the dev of PF. I believe that it’s just common marketing techniques, saving up for the really loud firecrackers the whole town can hear vise lighting a bottle rocket off every night sorta situation.


    This post was edited by Grime at September 22, 2019 8:22 AM PDT
    • 510 posts
    September 22, 2019 8:46 AM PDT

    As VR asks for feedback, here is mine on 2 issues : the shop and the newsletter. Of course it engages only me but it is my truthful opinion.

    1) The shop

    I am not interested at all.

    Tha main reason is that I understood that it is meant as a second funding channel added to the main funding channel which are the pledges. But as somebody who has pledged already more than 1k $, if I wanted to increase my support, I would simply increase my pledge. Why should I buy a cap and a shirt that I don't need anyway to achieve the same result ? This "new" funding channel adresses only people who in their crushing majority are ALREADY pledgers so why do you suppose that they would buy a cap rather than increase their pledge? The added value is at best marginal ( a few tens of k$) because I don't expect that somebody knowing little to nothing about Pantheon would buy a cap with Pantheon on it so it doesn't make much sense from the marketing point of view. Of course I don't exclude that there exist some people who are Pantheon pledgers and who are also fans of caps and shirts and thus would appreciate this shop . But it is definitely not my case.

    2) The newsletter

    Having read the newsletters since 2015 (yeah, it's been already 4 years), I observe that the quality of the information content is steadily decreasing. And that makes me insatisfied . It is not new for september but in september I really had the impression that I was taken for a fool. Why would you feature at length weapon pictures ? What kind of information is this supposed to convey and what "burning questions" does it answer ? If I wanted to see weapon pictures, I'd look at 

    https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRTHhlrxCbbaRPdGW9VKWJlAjydoA:1569163904123&q=sword+picture&tbm=isch&source=univ&sxsrf=ACYBGNRTHhlrxCbbaRPdGW9VKWJlAjydoA:1569163904123&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbyeWI1-TkAhVEz4UKHTMZAAMQsAR6BAgHEAE&biw=1920&bih=967

    There are more swords than you could ever put in a newsletters if I cared for sword pictures what I don't. Do you know that Elder Scrolls on line have some 100 + different styles for every weapon and every piece of equipment yet never communicated about it like if it was something important ? The overwhelming impression I had was that this was just a filler because you didn't know what else you could put in this newsletter . I wish that the information quality would go back to what it was 4 years ago - state of the union, progress in game development , major milestones aimed for (even without dates), major concepts that have been already implemented in a playable form.

    As for the rest, I always read with pleasure the lore part (you have a really talented writer over there) but this doesn't give me any interesting and/or new information about the game .

     

    • 60 posts
    September 22, 2019 9:19 AM PDT

    This was a fantastic News Letter (again). Thank you for the information VR and keep on trucking! Please ignore the shenanigans of a vocal impatient minority. I’ve been waiting 10 years to play an MMORPG and have no problem waiting however long it takes for VR to realize their vision with Pantheon. Cheers!


    This post was edited by Olympeus at September 23, 2019 1:39 AM PDT
    • 71 posts
    September 22, 2019 1:10 PM PDT

    Deadshade said:

    As VR asks for feedback, here is mine on 2 issues : the shop and the newsletter. Of course it engages only me but it is my truthful opinion.

    1) The shop

    I am not interested at all.

    Tha main reason is that I understood that it is meant as a second funding channel added to the main funding channel which are the pledges. But as somebody who has pledged already more than 1k $, if I wanted to increase my support, I would simply increase my pledge. Why should I buy a cap and a shirt that I don't need anyway to achieve the same result ? This "new" funding channel adresses only people who in their crushing majority are ALREADY pledgers so why do you suppose that they would buy a cap rather than increase their pledge? The added value is at best marginal ( a few tens of k$) because I don't expect that somebody knowing little to nothing about Pantheon would buy a cap with Pantheon on it so it doesn't make much sense from the marketing point of view. Of course I don't exclude that there exist some people who are Pantheon pledgers and who are also fans of caps and shirts and thus would appreciate this shop . But it is definitely not my case.

    2) The newsletter

    Having read the newsletters since 2015 (yeah, it's been already 4 years), I observe that the quality of the information content is steadily decreasing. And that makes me insatisfied . It is not new for september but in september I really had the impression that I was taken for a fool. Why would you feature at length weapon pictures ? What kind of information is this supposed to convey and what "burning questions" does it answer ? If I wanted to see weapon pictures, I'd look at 

    https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRTHhlrxCbbaRPdGW9VKWJlAjydoA:1569163904123&q=sword+picture&tbm=isch&source=univ&sxsrf=ACYBGNRTHhlrxCbbaRPdGW9VKWJlAjydoA:1569163904123&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbyeWI1-TkAhVEz4UKHTMZAAMQsAR6BAgHEAE&biw=1920&bih=967

    There are more swords than you could ever put in a newsletters if I cared for sword pictures what I don't. Do you know that Elder Scrolls on line have some 100 + different styles for every weapon and every piece of equipment yet never communicated about it like if it was something important ? The overwhelming impression I had was that this was just a filler because you didn't know what else you could put in this newsletter . I wish that the information quality would go back to what it was 4 years ago - state of the union, progress in game development , major milestones aimed for (even without dates), major concepts that have been already implemented in a playable form.

    As for the rest, I always read with pleasure the lore part (you have a really talented writer over there) but this doesn't give me any interesting and/or new information about the game .

     

    Nicely said and as you stated it is your truthful opinion on your ideas with the game. Which is exactly what I was conveying on my posts.

    I do love that *most* (since it would be unfair to catagorize all and wouldn't be anything more than exaggeration) that those here who are saying "great newsletter loved it etc, also need to throw in the subtle punch of those who wish to hear of more than just some swords or that the newsletter is lacking, that we are impatient, whiners, nay-sayers as if it is wrong to critisize. Yet from what I have read I haven't really seen those who say they want to see more throw in a punch on the opposite side saying it's wrong for them to support a lack luster newsletter. 

    Everyone wants a great game and everyone is on the same page about not having an issue with waiting for when it comes out. But the real disconnect is when the criticisms come out on just wanting to hear more about the games state or funds or any of the other concerns brought up. Then it's an issue and "wrong" to have such an opinion.

    Maybe it's different in other newsletters (I'm not going to go back to read comments on all of them, but I've been reading the newsletters since they first started doing it) and I'm sure on both sides things get readdressed time and time again, it's bound to happen with anticipation and excitement. But as far as THIS newsletter has gone I've read:

    1) Wanting to know the state of the game (funds, angel investors)

    2) A better way of handling questions without people feeling blown off

    3) What state PF is in.

    4) The concern for the Merch shop as a secondary funding campaign.

    There's a few others that I think tie into the above, just worded differently

    All valid question in my opinion (again MY opinion)

    Yet people then feel the need to say, it's impatients, it's whining, crying, it's people not getting their way and being entitled. Or it's an attack on Pantheon for the criticisms and thats not fair so people feel the need to stand up and fight in the name of VR. Which is silly. VR employees are all adults, I've never felt that they ignore the fans, Brasse is usually pretty fast to give replies to the best of what she is allowed to disclose. I've seen Joppa and Aradune comment occasionally. So for everyone feeling the need to come in and fight for their honor is beyond me. I'm not sure if it's a "I hope everyone sees how hardcore of a Pantheon fan I am" or "Man I bet VR would be proud of me" attitude, or if it's honestly just a self needed fulfillment to put in their opinion. But the big difference between opinions and just being rude is black and white on this newsletter lol.

    I can promise everyone from both sides Brad is not sitting in his office crying that we throw in criticisms or show our displeasure towards certain things for this game. I am sure he is 100% aware of what pledgers are saying and I'm sure Brasse and all of them sit around the table going over topics that get brought up.

    But thinking that everytime a newsletter is released and the expectation is to recieve 100% positive feedback is detrimental to the game and just a fantasy way of thinking. I've said it before, for a game to thrive it needs both sides of the story. Period, you don't get to argue that (unless you just want to argue for the sake of argueing), it's a well known truth, not just for a game for any product that comes. They can't do a better job and delivering if they don't know what is bugging people. And I dont mean the select few that say its BS that alpha isn't out yet. I haven't read anything in this post about someone saying "I can't believe they aren't releasing alpha this is crap and this game will never do well." A lot of the ideas were can you give us a little more details on what you guys are thinking on the inside of the state of the game other then "PF is doing well and moving along as planned." Great! what is moving on in it that is giving you guys such excitement, we the fans, want to know! That isn't a backward way of thinking and peoples opinions shouldn't be pushed aside for asking.

    As far as people (not just this forum a couple others I read) saying "I've done alpha before for x amount of time in x amount of games this is normal", sorry no. That's not to say Pantheon is behind THEIR schedule but generalizing what's been tested in the past is not a factual statement about describing the current state of this game. And vise versa to those saying the same thing but that Pantheon is taking way to long. I myself and I'm sure plenty of others on these forums have PA/Alpha/Beta tested other games. So going off a "timeline" of another game and comparing to how long that game took to how long this one is taking is not an accurate measurement of where VR should be or is with their game.

    I as well as many others posted in the forum to discuss debate and share ideas about Pantheon and what we think. It's not wrong to show discouragment, or critisize about this game. It's also not wrong to show excitement and compliment about this game. What is wrong is to devalue an opinion because it is not what you share or agree with, again from both angles. Discuss what you'd like to share, share those ideas even though you may not 100% agree and let's all support eachother.

    We don't have to agree about everything to understand that when Pantheon comes out it will indeed be a great game. Those that did feel like the game should've been released already are probably not here anymore or are waiting until they hear something and just not watching forums anymore. (or being silent about it).


    This post was edited by OGTomkins at September 22, 2019 1:12 PM PDT
    • 11 posts
    September 23, 2019 5:06 AM PDT

    When i saw the Weapon Vid, i thought, someone is trolling me...

    • 1248 posts
    September 23, 2019 1:15 PM PDT

    EXCELLENT WORK VR!!! You continue to go above and beyond!!! :D

    • 15 posts
    September 23, 2019 5:02 PM PDT

    I think I, like many who read your newsletter monthly and have pledged money years ago, am anxious for information on where we are at with PF?  I took the time to read all three pages on this thread, and while I understand both sides (developers and those who pledged), I will choose to avoid adding more venom to this thread and will simply accept the answer provided - it will happen when we're ready for it to happen.

    I am optimistic that next year (hopefully early in the year) we will get the exciting annoucement we have all been waiting for - definitive information on when the next PA phase(s) or Alpha phase(s) will happen.  Hang tight people, sometimes as a develolpment team you have to take some steps backwards to get yourself back on the correct path which allows you to move forward.  I believe this is the intention of the PF initiative, and the development teams' tight lipped approach.

    In terms of the newsletter, I really enjoyed the 'Burning Questions: Class Design' section.  Perhaps much of this information was already available somewhere, but it was new information to me, and I really enjoyed the answers provided.  Keep up the good work, VR!

    • 1180 posts
    September 24, 2019 6:50 AM PDT

    Chett said:

    When i saw the Weapon Vid, i thought, someone is trolling me...

    It did seem a bit out of place for 5+ years into this process.  It would seem to fit more into something during the first year, based on the development cycle of other games.
    I mean, nothing wrong with adding weapons at any time, but they weren't shown in-game, or held by a player or NPC, or even shown with game-world lighting. 
    Anything more than just "here's the model" would be expected or typical, now. 
    It didn't help that the page layout of the images also stretched/squished them so the circles weren't round.

    • 326 posts
    September 25, 2019 10:36 PM PDT

    Chett said:

    When i saw the Weapon Vid, i thought, someone is trolling me...

    i thought the same thing.

    i was like.... seriously, are you showing me renders a 12 year old could duplicate on an iPad in an hours time.... 

    whatthehell ??

     if this was month 5 of developement, not YEAR 5, it would have made more sense. they keep making BIG deals out of these minor graphics, like the lightning bolt with a splash area... big deal, AE spells  have been in games since EQ days, what are you all excited about here? i don't get it. 

    if this is what they call progress, be ready to wait until 2027 for a release date.