Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Crafting, economics, and materials

    • 2752 posts
    September 17, 2019 10:37 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    ((The more I read this thread and think about it the more I want wizard and druid ports to die in a fire))

    In my mind wizard and druid ports are generally inconsistant with core principles of the game and would never even have been considered in development if not for the desire to take many gameplay approaches from Everquest. Basically what they represent is "Slow travel helping to create a large and challenging world - other than for two classes and anyone else that they provide services for".

    Meaningful travel and teleports aren't mutually exclusive, and gameplay wise it is much to the benefit of both players and devs that players have a means of getting to different general parts of the world they have been to before in relatively short order (~30 min). 

    • 2756 posts
    September 18, 2019 4:09 AM PDT

    Meaningful travel and *the concept of* teleports aren't mutually exclusive.  EQ-style wizard and druid taxi services do damage the principal.  Adding in some classes being able to Gate/Evac to near a wizard/druid portal and you have all but completely by-passed meaningful travel.

    I really hope Pantheon have a better handle on it than EQ did.

    Teleports *can* be 'a thing' and travel still be meaningful.  If teleportation is effectively like a boat trip from a dock to a dock on a schedule and requiring a 'fee' (which might be something you have to 'do' (resource gathering, killing for drops, etc) rather than simple cash payment) but without the staring at the sea for hours in the middle, then I'm all for it.  The dock locations and the schedule and fee can be tuned and controlled.

    It also doesn't have to be certain classes having the monopoly on fast travel.  Travel is too fundamental to everyone's experience for certain classes only to control it.  Or maybe wizards and druids could make unscheduled trips?  Something less exclusive.

    EQ was great.  Pantheon doesn't have to copy it to be excellent.  It could be even better.

    LOTRO had an excellent system, in my opinion.  It had horse routes.  You physically had to discover stables and you could then pay to open routes between stables you knew and pay to travel each time.  Some routes were 'fast travel' where the horse would run a few seconds along the route and then you would 'teleport' to complete the last part of the route.  Some were slow routes where you travelled on the horse for the whole route at horse speed but without needing to steer (still faster than a horse 'mount') but could get off at any point (jumping off mid-route was an excellent tactical option).

    Of course, later in the life of the game they made more and more routes 'fast' and allowed you to pay in the cash shop to unlock routes remotely... *sigh*

    TL;DR: Travel is so fundamental to adventuring and, yes, to economics, that it should be very carefully controlled.  There are so many fun and tunable options that would be both immersive and controllable.  Wizard and druid taxi services a la EQ aren't the ideal just "because EQ".


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 18, 2019 4:12 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 18, 2019 8:54 AM PDT

    Regarding Druid/Wizard teleports, from The september 2019 newsletter, today:

    Druid/Wizard

    How will Druid and Wizard teleportation be handled?

    When a Wizard approaches a Gateway for the first time, they will be able to “discover” it. Part of that process includes speaking with the NPC Gatewalker who oversees that portal. Whether through conversation or quest, the Wizard will gain access to that Gateway as part of their network. Every Gateway they discover in this manner will become part of their ever-increasing network of Gateways. Druids will encounter an identical process, utilizing Wandering Stones.

    Our plan is for the Wandering Stones and Gateways to become increasingly available to Druids and Wizards as part of a growing, interconnected network. Wizards/Druids will then be able to access all of their discovered portal locations through a UI window.

    At higher levels, Druids/Wizards will be able to teleport themselves to the primary Gateway or Wandering Stone in order to access the network more quickly. In addition, they’ll eventually be able to bring their group members with them through the Gateway/Wandering Stone network.

    It certainly seems like "they’ll eventually be able to bring their group members with them through the Gateway/Wandering Stone network" is the same as it was in EQ1. 
    Group teleport from anywhere to any point in the network.  The points in the network closest to a bank, and/or those at the most convenient max-level zone or, as in EQ1 today, nearest the closest place you can make an alt (with character-to-character traiding-through-the-bank in place) will end up being the trading points, when most people or guilds have access to pocket porters, given the approval of multi-boxing.

    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:02 AM PDT

    edit vjek beat me XD

    At higher levels, Druids/Wizards will be able to teleport themselves to the primary Gateway or Wandering Stone in order to access the network more quickly. In addition, they’ll eventually be able to bring their group members with them through the Gateway/Wandering Stone network.

     

    slap the gateway usage so it's major city to major city and slap wandering stones town to town i'll be happy.  as long as the druid/wizard networks are separate i'll be content.

    from reading this, druids and wizards have to be higher level or unlock some stuff to teleport people?

    @disopolist

    i think it'll be fine.  it's not like the devs are copy paste from eq XD  arachu have evolved into uwuchu!

    @vjek i think the teleporters will need to fulfill certain requirements to tp groups so i wouldn't be able to make a lowbie and tp around.  it's probably going to involve some type of attunement.


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at September 18, 2019 9:05 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:04 AM PDT

    Yeah I would kill off the spell that gets you to the primary Gateway or Wandering stone.  That spell isn't needed and shrinks the world.  Otherwise it sounds like you need to be at a point in the network to move to another point in the network that you have already unlocked.

    • 1785 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:05 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

     

    from reading this, druids and wizards have to be higher level or unlock some stuff to teleport people?

    This was the case in EQ as well.  The unlocking requirement per location is a new-ish concept, but if the only requirement is that the *caster* has visited the location before, it becomes trivialized very quickly.

    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:10 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    stellarmind said:

     

    from reading this, druids and wizards have to be higher level or unlock some stuff to teleport people?

    This was the case in EQ as well.  The unlocking requirement per location is a new-ish concept, but if the only requirement is that the *caster* has visited the location before, it becomes trivialized very quickly.

    yea i'd be okay with that.  as long as it's not as simple as talking to an npc to unlock that gate. (i'm thinking like wow molten core attunement for each gate/stone)

    i invested the time and means to setup a taxi service that wasn't simple or easy.

    • 1921 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:13 AM PDT

    Agreed, Nephele.
    The whole value of the mechanic is to take your group from anywhere to a particular destination.  I don't see anything in what they've described in the past 5+ years that has deviated from that goal.
    And as far as "higher level", yes, the expectation is, at least in our guild, is that a porter above level 30 or 40 will be required to reach the most desired locations, economically.  But you really only need one porter per 4-6 groups, and every pledge over $100 offers two accounts. 
    The target demographic has enough disposable income that $15 for the convenience of porting from anywhere to any network destination is a default expectation.  At least, that's our expectation.
    Any attunement tasks will be a trivial speedbump to the destinations that are required for economic value, imo.

    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:17 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Agreed, Nephele.
    The whole value of the mechanic is to take your group from anywhere to a particular destination.  I don't see anything in what they've described in the past 5+ years that has deviated from that goal.
    And as far as "higher level", yes, the expectation is, at least in our guild, is that a porter above level 30 or 40 will be required to reach the most desired locations, economically.  But you really only need one porter per 4-6 groups, and every pledge over $100 offers two accounts. 
    The target demographic has enough disposable income that $15 for the convenience of porting from anywhere to any network destination is a default expectation.  At least, that's our expectation.
    Any attunement tasks will be a trivial speedbump to the destinations that are required for economic value, imo.

    say it ain't so!  let's just assume that wizards gateways are more for city to city and druids are going to be city to a dungeon.

    the requirement for wizards is to complete a major long quest chain(higher level stuff) for each city

    the requirement for druids is to complete a dungeon quest chain for each location.

    would this be okay?


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at September 18, 2019 9:18 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:24 AM PDT

    Even if the requirement turns into what you describe, it's still something our guild (and many, many others) as well as individuals would be willing to do to have a pocket porter for all their characters, forever.
    Such is the power of teleportation, stellarmind. 
    I know you know this, it's just.. this has been their public design goal forever, so I don't personally see them changing things drastically in this area.

    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:43 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Even if the requirement turns into what you describe, it's still something our guild (and many, many others) as well as individuals would be willing to do to have a pocket porter for all their characters, forever.
    Such is the power of teleportation, stellarmind. 
    I know you know this, it's just.. this has been their public design goal forever, so I don't personally see them changing things drastically in this area.

    i would be okay with that.  that's a time investment with profitable output.  if the concern is trivalizing travel, then i can just not have the gate/stone in play and only put it in when the content becomes old.

    uhh kind of like how wow lets me fly in past zone but doesn't let me fly in current content zones except scaled down alot more XD

     

    there's alot of simple ways to do it.

    when in doubt, have less not more.  similar to cooking.  seasoning can always be added, but not removed.

    uhh so start with less gates/stones

     

    or i could change have a reagent to activate gates/stone

    i then could make it where said reagent can only be obtained via endgame raids or dungeons and only activates to said location

    make reagent nontransferable

     

    druid/wizard then wouldn't be able to nor would probably not want to use gate/stone willy nilly.  and if a guild invested in that then more power to them.

    just throwing this out there btw.  it really doesn't bother me as a pvper.

     

    to give some context:  i'm the type to mod skyrim where i've disable fast travel, added hazardous weather so i can immerse in the world


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at September 18, 2019 9:51 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    September 18, 2019 11:11 AM PDT

    It would also be interesting to set a maximum range that the network can reach.  In this way you could start at one node and want to go to one on the opposite side of the continent.  To get there though you will actually need to port to 3 other nodes.

    I would also put the nodes in inconvenient locations so that they bridge areas but are not a main form of travel between cities.

    • 2419 posts
    September 18, 2019 11:14 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    It would also be interesting to set a maximum range that the network can reach.  In this way you could start at one node and want to go to one on the opposite side of the continent.  To get there though you will actually need to port to 3 other nodes.

    I would also put the nodes in inconvenient locations so that they bridge areas but are not a main form of travel between cities.

    Add to that the need to always start at a portal to reach another portal, not being able to freely teleport anywhere to any portal in range.  It's a network, to use it you have to first be at an access point to it.

    • 1428 posts
    September 18, 2019 11:32 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Trasak said:

    It would also be interesting to set a maximum range that the network can reach.  In this way you could start at one node and want to go to one on the opposite side of the continent.  To get there though you will actually need to port to 3 other nodes.

    I would also put the nodes in inconvenient locations so that they bridge areas but are not a main form of travel between cities.

    Add to that the need to always start at a portal to reach another portal, not being able to freely teleport anywhere to any portal in range.  It's a network, to use it you have to first be at an access point to it.


    like a bus/train paying and having to transfer at each stop instead uber/lyft?

     

    rp:

    stop right there citizen!!! you've been caught red handed running a full halt gateway/stone crossing!

    you have the right to remain silent!

    you are being detained for reckless teleportation, endangerment of dimensional collapse.  WHAT'S THIS?!  illegal contraband and- is that another person you are transporting?  fined for burdening the system!  mismanagement of quantum magic that causes continental warming directly subverting nature!  you're going away for a long time you criminal!

    choose one:

    bribe

    persuade

    flee

    attack

    turn yourself in