Hello Hello!
I was just wondering if there was any information on character creation, especially concerning stats. One of the main things I loved/hated about EQ is how much your starting stat input heavily impacted your characters playstyle. On one hand, it was awesome to feel that control when it came to the character creation, on the other hand, it was highly annoying to possibly gimp your character and find out 30 levels in.
Alexander said: Especially so for stat thresholds, like agility in EQ. Needed over 75(?) to cross a threshold which raised armor fairly significantly, and that info was nooot in the character creator. Nice to discover things as we played, but I dont think those thresholds added very much. I doubt VR would be implementing things like them, though.
Yeah, I remember screwing up my ogre warrior by putting too many points into str and dex instead of boosting stamina entirely. I was in the OT (roughly level 30) by the time I found out how gimped I was. A halfing warrior who was in my party had 20% more HP due to his stat increase. I guess if they did go that route, they could add a way to reset your stats. In all honesty, inputing your stats at character creation wasn't that important as there were standardized builds for pretty much every class. Warriors put everything into Sta, Wizards put did a mix of INt and dex (fireballs are not going to aim their selves), enchanters was a healthy mix of CHA and INT etc, etc.
What did make it interesting was how clerics handled stat increases. I remember how High Elves had the most mana of all the Clerics due to their massive WIS, but Halfling had more success in cast rate as well as survivability due to their STA and AGI/DEX.
Also, I am kind of wary of gaining stat increasing equipment so early. I remember getting my first bit of stat increasing equipment at level 25 for my warrior. Up until then, it was a couple of Giant Militia Longswords and banded armor that I bought from a PC smith. Once I got my first bit of decent armor with stats on it, I felt like I had earned it.
We shall see how they handle it. I am super looking forward to this game. I am so going to rez my old Ogre Warrior.
Voss said:
Yeah, I remember screwing up my ogre warrior by putting too many points into str and dex instead of boosting stamina entirely. I was in the OT (roughly level 30) by the time I found out how gimped I was. A halfing warrior who was in my party had 20% more HP due to his stat increase. I guess if they did go that route, they could add a way to reset your stats. In all honesty, inputing your stats at character creation wasn't that important as there were standardized builds for pretty much every class. Warriors put everything into Sta, Wizards put did a mix of INt and dex (fireballs are not going to aim their selves), enchanters was a healthy mix of CHA and INT etc, etc.
Does seem unlikely due to the base stamina of ogres beeing higher than a halfling even with all invested points. I guess thje halfling had more +STA and +HP gear than anything ^^. 20 years after EQ's launch, people have been counseling ogres players to put their point in agility to avoid an AC malus they inherently have due to very low agi, sta is rarely a problem for them.
I am definitely looking forward to attributes actually meaning something. When you get the Rusty Panties of Rat Killing giving +10 to your most important attribute at level 2 for killing 10 rats you know it is downhill the rest of the game.
Yes it is critical to give enough information on the character creation page so that anyone that reads it knows where to put points if they do not want to be gimped.
Voss said:Hello Hello!
I was just wondering if there was any information on character creation, especially concerning stats. One of the main things I loved/hated about EQ is how much your starting stat input heavily impacted your characters playstyle. On one hand, it was awesome to feel that control when it came to the character creation, on the other hand, it was highly annoying to possibly gimp your character and find out 30 levels in.
I haven't heard anything from the Devs on it yet, it's really likely too soon for them to worry about that one way or the other.
My preferable would be that they do it exactly like EQ (and D&D) did it where you roll stats then add a few points where you want. The problem you point out lvl.30 and bad stats does need addressed. I dislike the way most games have done it just by simply eliminating the feature all together (bad form and a lazy fix) a possibility to reset would work, by quest I would hope. Or my preference would be Quest of sorts to move, one point at a time. If you were only one point off you ran the gauntlet once, 5 points off 5 times, and you could always go back and change your mind.
The relative value of integer value stat bonuses is relative to the range that the RNG can generate.
A +5 modifier on a d20 is adding 25% to the maximum roll, 50% to the average roll and 500% to the minimum roll.
A +100 on a d1000 adds 10% to the maximum roll, 20% to the average roll and 10000% to the minimum roll.
Now come at it sideways. 1d1024 is going to have similar values to the d1000. If we start shifting progression from value magnitude to value consistency we could shift from d1024 to 2d512 to 4d256 to 8d128 to 16d64. The effectiveness of +100 changes for each even if the maximum possible result never changes.
In a game we are not limited to a regular polyhedron RNG range. So there are a lot of interesting things that can be done on the back end. Once that is done you have a lot more room to make incremental changes without drastically changing the final outcome and so keep the power curve much shallower.
How effective abilities are and with what stats/gear combination is something that can easily be done throughout alpha and early beta. The biggest issue will be the need to go back and modify itemization to represent the final math formula that was settled upon.
SoWplz said: If this is the case I will be pretty upset. I hope that after al these years we have learned that a warrior is more then just dumping points into 1 stat or 2 stats. There should be multiple paths to making a good toon. Not you didnt do this, now your character is less the everyone other warrior. I hope to see multiple skills use every stat.
A careful look at the streams, paying particular attention to the tool-tips for various spells and abilities shows that multiple stats have effects upon those things. A particular attack may show STR and CON as modifiers and depending upon how each stat affects the ability, it could very well be better for you to have a balance of those two stats than maximing out only one. I, for one, am going to be paying special attention to this when Alpha comes around.
Vandraad said:SoWplz said: If this is the case I will be pretty upset. I hope that after al these years we have learned that a warrior is more then just dumping points into 1 stat or 2 stats. There should be multiple paths to making a good toon. Not you didnt do this, now your character is less the everyone other warrior. I hope to see multiple skills use every stat.A careful look at the streams, paying particular attention to the tool-tips for various spells and abilities shows that multiple stats have effects upon those things. A particular attack may show STR and CON as modifiers and depending upon how each stat affects the ability, it could very well be better for you to have a balance of those two stats than maximing out only one. I, for one, am going to be paying special attention to this when Alpha comes around.
i think the concept its going to be something similar to this(keep in mind it'll probably be unique to each spell type):
Applies intense pressure to your target’s brain, causing Magic damage over time. While active, your target’s Magic Resistance will decrease by X every Y seconds.
strength increases damage
intellegence increases duration
constitution increases pentration
i remember somewhere they were talking about strength increasing the damage of fireballs for wizard XD gandolf the swoll.
SoWplz said: I do recall certain skills using different stats and that looks good. I understand some stats are more important then others, but I dont think any one stats is useless. D&D did this pretty well in their rules with checks/saves. Maybe cha...no one needs cha. Hah. But to the OP I also enjoy the stat reallocation at the character creation. Just dont hope these will gimp your toon in the long run of the game. Look at GoT... Bronn was not the biggest strongest ( I would say warrior ) but his other stats made him a fabulous fighter.
i really think it depends on what you want to do. i mean intelligence on a warrior increases the duration or effects of their banners? buff bot warriors XD
sorcerers for dnd use charisma!
stellarmind said:i think the concept its going to be something similar to this(keep in mind it'll probably be unique to each spell type):
Malison’s Crushing Grip
Applies intense pressure to your target’s brain, causing Magic damage over time. While active, your target’s Magic Resistance will decrease by X every Y seconds.
strength increases damage
intellegence increases duration
constitution increases pentration
i remember somewhere they were talking about strength increasing the damage of fireballs for wizard XD gandolf the swoll.
Currently it doesn't work like that. There is what I would call a moderating stat, modifying stat and a tertiary stat.
Moderating Stat = A stat used overwhelmingly on all abilities unanimously. Used to moderate the disparity as so you aren't drastically reducing the funcationality of a list of abilities in favor of a stat build for other abilities. For the Enchanter for instance, Constitution appears to be the moderating stat.
Modifying Stat = A stat used to modify the potency of an ability where you have a variability in use of said stats based on the ability type. Wizard in your example where Strength was used for Fire spells, Dexterity for Ice spells and Wisdom for Arcane spells would modify those for specific schools or ability lines.
Tertiary Stat = Used to contribute via another means to the specialization within an ability. This could allow for more fine tuning. For instance, where Wizard Fire Spells may use Strength and Constitution for the Modifying and Moderating Stat, the Tertiary Stat may be different for the different types of Fire Spells.
Here's an Enchanter spells to use an example that uses Moderating, Modifying and Tertiary stat lineup.
Now, the percentages would mean one thing, that they aren't going with a hidden per ability coefficient. Instead it appears the coefficient will be visible through the percentages in that they tell you at what peercentage that stat applies towards an ability. Now, they can create a hidden coefficient where that applied value is then adjusted for a valueset within the ability, but we'll have to see as currently, only VIP have that information. I would unfortunately have to wait for Alpha before I can do my quick breakdown and assesment on the relationship.
The system is interesting. It can be complicated and as much as it appears not to be the case, it's actually easiesr to design than people think. However, balancing it is complicated. With Pantheon not looking for perfect balance, that could be favorable to the system. It also has a unique function by design to not just make min/maxing very difficult to near impossible but would actually work against them. The more they try to min/max, the more they try to min/max, the less valuable they become and yet being nominal across the board is also detrimental. That plays into the more organic methodology of a player who builds by feel of how they play.
Janus said:stellarmind said:i think the concept its going to be something similar to this(keep in mind it'll probably be unique to each spell type):
Malison’s Crushing Grip
Applies intense pressure to your target’s brain, causing Magic damage over time. While active, your target’s Magic Resistance will decrease by X every Y seconds.
strength increases damage
intellegence increases duration
constitution increases pentration
i remember somewhere they were talking about strength increasing the damage of fireballs for wizard XD gandolf the swoll.
Currently it doesn't work like that. There is what I would call a moderating stat, modifying stat and a tertiary stat.
Moderating Stat = A stat used overwhelmingly on all abilities unanimously. Used to moderate the disparity as so you aren't drastically reducing the funcationality of a list of abilities in favor of a stat build for other abilities. For the Enchanter for instance, Constitution appears to be the moderating stat.
Modifying Stat = A stat used to modify the potency of an ability where you have a variability in use of said stats based on the ability type. Wizard in your example where Strength was used for Fire spells, Dexterity for Ice spells and Wisdom for Arcane spells would modify those for specific schools or ability lines.
Tertiary Stat = Used to contribute via another means to the specialization within an ability. This could allow for more fine tuning. For instance, where Wizard Fire Spells may use Strength and Constitution for the Modifying and Moderating Stat, the Tertiary Stat may be different for the different types of Fire Spells.
Here's an Enchanter spells to use an example that uses Moderating, Modifying and Tertiary stat lineup.
Now, the percentages would mean one thing, that they aren't going with a hidden per ability coefficient. Instead it appears the coefficient will be visible through the percentages in that they tell you at what peercentage that stat applies towards an ability. Now, they can create a hidden coefficient where that applied value is then adjusted for a valueset within the ability, but we'll have to see as currently, only VIP have that information. I would unfortunately have to wait for Alpha before I can do my quick breakdown and assesment on the relationship.
The system is interesting. It can be complicated and as much as it appears not to be the case, it's actually easiesr to design than people think. However, balancing it is complicated. With Pantheon not looking for perfect balance, that could be favorable to the system. It also has a unique function by design to not just make min/maxing very difficult to near impossible but would actually work against them. The more they try to min/max, the more they try to min/max, the less valuable they become and yet being nominal across the board is also detrimental. That plays into the more organic methodology of a player who builds by feel of how they play.
hm... so kind of like what ability you would want to specialize in based on equipment?
like a fire wizard is going to want strength, an ice wizard dex, and arcane wiz wanting wisdom.
the end game result being the same allowing unique gearing opportunities depending on what i want to do?
eh to make sure i get what you are saying since we are on enchanter:
cc abilities will have a higher charisma modifiers to increase duration.
damage abilities will have higher intelligence modifiers to increase damage.
if i'm a min maxer, i can prioritize heaps of charisma if i just want to be a cc machine.
Sort of but a bit more detailed.
To use an example, as an Enchanter your unique lines are as follows...
Mesmerizes
Charms (confuse as well lumped in there)
Nukes
Dots
Melee Hastes
Spell Hastes
Mana Regens
Melee Slows
Spell Slows
Flat Rate Damage Reducers
Mana Drains
Silences
PBAE Stuns
Pacifies
Mem Blurs
Runeskin
Faction Adjustment Line
Illusions
etc.
You may want to specialize in a few like Runeskin, Mesmerize and Illusions at the detriment of others. That's how it could play out. Keep in mind, of the spells listed, as of now variable modifying and tertiary stat combinations along with the moderating influence is looking to utilize Strength, Stamina, Agility, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma. It also isn't only stats as detailed but abilities will also utilize AC, Health and even your target's health value and maybe even their stats.
Scene and Video in question. https://youtu.be/qnQD5xoQADE?t=761
Right click picture below and open in new tab (if on Chrome) for full resolution version
stellarmind said:i remember somewhere they were talking about strength increasing the damage of fireballs for wizard XD gandolf the swoll.
I would love to have the option of playing a muscle wizard... Currently doing a sword saint magus fist fighter on pathfinder...
One of my favorite things about old school MMO's is the ability to homebrew unique builds. Back when I was on FFXI, I used to play a galka blink ninja tank. So much fun when you get it right. Maybe the option for unique builds will be available in this game...
Janus said:Scene and Video in question. https://youtu.be/qnQD5xoQADE?t=761
Right click picture below and open in new tab (if on Chrome) for full resolution version
Thanks, I will have a look.
I definitely think that the ideal would be to have all attributes benefit all classes. This gives far more flexibility in creating and rounding out the character and encourages those that really love a class to have more than one of it if they are altoholics. If attributes are really important - as I hope, and cannot simply be gotten by swapping gear - as I also hope - we will *need* two characters if we want to have e.g. a maximum strength warrior and a maximum agility warrior.
For a warrior wisdom, intelligence and charisma aren't quite as obviously critical on first glance but thay *could* be just as important as other attributes. Thus, just making things up out of whole cloth and not even looking at anything VR has done.
Intelligence. The most important attribute for increasing the warrior's ability to strike an enemy, increasing the damage done by each strike and avoiding being hit by the enemy. Also greatly increases critical hits done by the warrior and reduces the chance of critical hits done to the warrior. Attacking and dodging at the *right* time is more important than attacking or dodging with great agility at the *wrong* time. Also allows the warrior to use skills more often and tire more slowly as he or she is more likely to identify safe times to reduce effort.
Wisdom. Much the same as intelligence. VR can and should put some benefits in one and some in the other.
Charisma. Improves the warrior's defence by making the enemy reluctant to hurt the warrior. Also distracts the enemy by making him or her think of physical activities other than fighting. Only applicable to humanoid, living entities. Double the benefit fighting enemies of the same race as the warrior. Benefit is greater for warriors with light armor and greatest for warriors with no helmet.
