Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The Look of Loot

    • 1019 posts
    August 19, 2019 5:49 PM PDT

    Good video from Baz if you haven't seen it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXDyf38jluo&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1pxkDKwFj6VZ7JIaNFizc0uWDw33hvgH1BlKJvm2jQLMjgmE9M_03hfpI

    But aside from what he's saying, most of which I knew already but still fun to listen too, the comment about rags to riches is what caught my ear.  I hope we all look like struggling hog farmers until we are earning end game raid items.

    As much as everyone wants to say, I just want to take it slow, enjoy the journey, fish and enjoy the quite life this will still be an end game focused raid based game.  That (raiding) will be the ultimate challenge and eventual goal of many many of the players.

    What could make that an even more enticing objective, is to make us all look like drunken tavern wenches until we've earned a few peices of the most elite gear in the game.  I'm not saying stats need to remain crap, but the look should be, or I guess shouldn't be, impressive unless it's truely a rare peice.

    To add to that idea (this is more of a wish list idea) is that the raid peices you get from raid bosses, need to be forged by a master blacksmith.  The dropped peice of gear you get from a raid boss needs some TLC.  Take it to a blacksmith and they can "repair" it for you.  And while doing this "repair" they can customize it in a few different visual ways.  Red, blue, shiney, matte etc...  

    All in all, everything VR is discribing with their loot seems like a good direction other than I have a feeling we'll be seeing level 13 toons with gear that not even kings could have hoped to afford.  If I run past a Warrior standing AFK on the docks and he has something shiney on, I know he's worked his ass off for it, he didnt' just get it from a random drop in some dungeon.

    • 2419 posts
    August 19, 2019 6:17 PM PDT

     'Struggling hog farmers' is a bit too much, even for early levels.  Sure, if you loot A Moldy Leather Tunic off some wretched mob, sure, you're gonna look terrible. But A Simple Leather Tunic off an NPC should look plain, yes, but not raggedy or filthy.  Mundane items, those things purchased from NPCs or are the initial items in a given tradeskill tree, should be plain and functional with little embelishment or adornment.  Higher skilled items, loot off mid to high level named mobs and definitely raid mobs should increase in visual flair and be more grandiose.

    • 542 posts
    August 20, 2019 3:08 AM PDT

    interesting Vid about item appearance.
    Don't know if the aim for high lvl players should be a matching set.
    Cause what is a mismatched ensemble of gear? In many games the so called matching
    gear has mismatching elements;like oversized shoulder-or hip pads.
    Some people might like that ,some don't.
    As Bazgrim says "art direction is just a matter of opinion"
    But what a mismatching set is ,is also a matter of opinion.
    A realistic fantasy aesthetic is a good choice though.

    Would one say "if you wear a mismatching set ,you don't care you look like a fool?"
    or "you wear unique pieces that each have a story to tell"
    I think with the unrealistic sized gear ,looking like a fool might sooner be the case.

    But im not sure if a " mismatched ensemble" should indicate a player is low lvl.
    Player could wear all kinds of different style artifacts & still look pretty cool i think
    in high levels.
    Sounds like they will decide for the player what a "matching set" and "mismatching set"
    is by the quote in that vid.
    While I think allowing the player to mix and match their own final look could
    be more exciting for them.
    At least,since the game will have realistic fantasy aesthetics,
    chances are way smaller that the character will look like a fool if it
    decides to mix & match stuff.

    I somehow like the idea that items would gain different upgrade options
    depending on the climate you spend most time in or so.Facing the weather conditions
    and the circumstances there.
    Or the monsters you slay often;like if the player slays many dragons ,dragon ornaments
    might unlock for weapon and gear alike,so  you become what you are ,a dragon slayer.


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 20, 2019 3:12 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    August 20, 2019 3:36 AM PDT

    I'm all for items being basic and 'gritty' (though yeah we don't have to start like beggars) but I'd like to add I really don't want items to become too 'special' as we get to high levels.  VR is with this idea, it seems, so I'm just agreeing.

    Seeing high level characters walking around looking like Christmas tree ornaments is a total turn off to me.  Looks ridiculous and gawdy.  Even the hallowed Everquest suffered from that somewhat (mostly due to the jester motley effect of mismatched pieces though) and, of course, games like WoW were totally over-the-top silly (the shoulder pieces were just a joke, as Bazgrim mentions).

    I'm hoping the jester's motley won't be too bad in Pantheon, though. Joppa has hinted that mis-matched pieces will be a thing and that you won't be getting complete sets until high level.  Even then, if you prize stats over aesthetic, you are going to be mis-matched probably.  I know they are going to have much more subtle armor design than Everquest (not hard!) but even then I hope they also have some kind of wardrobe or transmog so those hard-to-obtain items that you've managed to obtain can be used for your look.

    LotRO had a good handle on this - in it's early years anyway.  There was a great variety of looks, but they were carefully and soberly designed.  Sparkles and weirdities were rare.  I would travel the world collecting different sets and 'saving' them in my wardrobe for later use, often overriding the look of new 'stat' piece that, to me, looked bad, gawdy or just too mis-matched with the look I was going for.

    Unfortunately they eventually relaxed those rules (or design controls) and you ended up with glowing, glittering warriors fighting in formal dresses, but *shrug* that's the decline of the genre for you, not a necessary or inevitable upshot of the wardrobe system.

    I don't think VR have been clear over this issue.  The quote over 'cosmetic' gear which can be toggled sounds much more like it's intended for role-playing in cities and not for controlling the look of your character's gear.  For what *I* want from wardrobe/transmogs, if other players can toggle it off, it's utterly pointless.  *I* want to have control over what my character looks like in the same way I have control over what it says and does.  It's important for the role-playing and immersion aspect.  If other players might look straight through cosmetics, I don't see any point in them except for mutually consented organised role-playing events (which I'm not into).

    It's a whole think that's been discussed before at great length.  I don't want to start another argument here - I know some hate 'cosmetics' and some love them, so it causes argument.  I would just say that my idea of being able to 'store' items that you have previously worn by consuming them into a 'wardrobe' of looks you can then use as an override on items of the same type is hardly like the outlandish cash-shop cosmetics of other games.  Mostly I just want to be able to keep the look of an item I was already wearing and liked the look of if the next upgrade doesn't look good to me.

    It's an ideal.  I won't be heart-broken if wardrobe/transmog is not in the game, but the whole toggle-able cosmetics thing sounds like a waste of time to me.  You end up in the bizarre situation where some people don't see what others want to look like and that those people don't even know what they look like to half other players.  They will have carefully chosen a cosmetic outfit and paid no attention to their adveturing look and you end up with loads of characters in the world looking more mismatched than they would if there was no cosmetics option.  And you can switch back and forth as needed... So you never quite get used to what certain races or classes or even your regular friends look like.  The idea is literally a mess.  I would prefer to have no cosmetics than have them switchable.

    One other thing...  PLEASE no repairing...  At least if there is please don't make it too severe to be 'damaged'...  Sorry, but to me there's little more depressing, dreary and irritating than to have gear in a gear-centric game be degraded or ruined by normal use.  Maybe have non-magical stuff do that?  But even that would be annoying.  It's not a satisfying, fun or particularly tactical mechanic.  Complex crafting, customising, etc?  Great!  Damage and repairs?  Ugh.


    This post was edited by disposalist at August 20, 2019 3:43 AM PDT
    • 1019 posts
    August 20, 2019 4:54 AM PDT

    Well, I wonder what they mean by "matching sets of armor".  Like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 out of 5.  Where the more of those set pieces you have match and give a bonus when set together?  

    Because I'm sure we can finding matching pieces of plain old chain armor that when worn together will look fine and will match.  So I wondering if this "matching peices of armor" is meant as set piece bonuses.

    • 297 posts
    August 20, 2019 4:54 AM PDT

    I am all for your gear having some level of prestige in its appearance but the idea that it should be all-or-nothing raid gear is good, everything else is bad...

     

    that's just silly.

    • 542 posts
    August 20, 2019 5:29 AM PDT

    Such set items would be like in eso,Kittik
    And with my experience playing that game
    I don't know if such set items are that good for the game to be honest.
    Cause all people in the end will go for the same ,or select few sets(those that are meta & just the best of best)
    So you could have a very large pool of all kinds of cool & awesome armors and weapons
    ,a select few would be used if such sets and looks go hand in hand
    And I think that might be a shame
    But not sure if they meant "matching armor sets" like that either.

    Maybe it would be healthy to break free of the idea "raidgear is endgear" idea
    Instead find ways to keep all content relevant and viable.
    I heard an interesting quote about life a while back and i think it could apply to gaming as well
    "it was a musical thing & you were supposed to sing and dance while the music was playing"
    while people always chase goals (live for the future)to retire eventually but still with a feeling they cheated themselves
    down the whole line cause they didn't enjoy the present.
    I think it might be like that as well; players race to endgame & then feel like they cheated themselves
    down the whole line as they forgot to enjoy the journey along the way.

     


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 20, 2019 5:54 AM PDT
    • 297 posts
    August 20, 2019 6:27 AM PDT

    I've always felt raiding should be something fun and challenging to do along with any other progression instead of the end point of progression.

    • 1992 posts
    August 20, 2019 8:29 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    As much as everyone wants to say, I just want to take it slow, enjoy the journey, fish and enjoy the quite life this will still be an end game focused raid based game.  That (raiding) will be the ultimate challenge and eventual goal of many many of the players.

    What could make that an even more enticing objective, is to make us all look like drunken tavern wenches until we've earned a few peices of the most elite gear in the game.  I'm not saying stats need to remain crap, but the look should be, or I guess shouldn't be, impressive unless it's truely a rare peice.

    To add to that idea (this is more of a wish list idea) is that the raid peices you get from raid bosses, need to be forged by a master blacksmith.  The dropped peice of gear you get from a raid boss needs some TLC.  Take it to a blacksmith and they can "repair" it for you.  And while doing this "repair" they can customize it in a few different visual ways.  Red, blue, shiney, matte etc... 

    As much as you would like the game to be exactly as you prefer, this will still be the game the devs intend it to be. While there will clearly be raiding, the devs have said many times that they DON'T want it to be "an end game focused raid based game". And that is also the goal of many players.

    So no I don't support designing loot drops to keep us looking like circus clowns, just to encourage us to hurry our way through the levels to "get to the good stuff".

    As far as the other, I'm all in favor of higher-quality loot drops being upgradable by armor crafters. Not limited to raid pieces, but making many quest rewards and rare random drops upgradable.

    • 1019 posts
    August 20, 2019 9:10 AM PDT

    Jothany said:

    As much as you would like the game to be exactly as you prefer, this will still be the game the devs intend it to be. While there will clearly be raiding, the devs have said many times that they DON'T want it to be "an end game focused raid based game". And that is also the goal of many players.

     

    I'm not trying to force the game to be what only I want.  I offer what I feel would be neat twists to an old and aging cut and paste mechanic of the genre if no one likes it fine, but at least I put myself out there and offer ideas.  Maybe one day, one will stick.

    As for the part of this will be a raid focused game.  It will be.  Plain and simple.  Do I want it to be?  Ehh, not really, I don't have that type of time anymore, but are there raid mobs?  Then this is a raid focused game.  At launch?  In 4 months?  In one year? Maybe not, but as soon as the first expansion comes out, and probably a few months before that, everyone will know this is a raid focued game.

    • 2752 posts
    August 20, 2019 9:26 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    As for the part of this will be a raid focused game.  It will be.  Plain and simple.  Do I want it to be?  Ehh, not really, I don't have that type of time anymore, but are there raid mobs?  Then this is a raid focused game.  At launch?  In 4 months?  In one year? Maybe not, but as soon as the first expansion comes out, and probably a few months before that, everyone will know this is a raid focued game.

    That's only true if the vast majority of the best/top loot comes from raids and if most equipment slots can be filled by raids. Raiding being THE end-game in most MMOs is by design not necessity or inevitability. 

    • 2756 posts
    August 20, 2019 1:33 PM PDT

    Yeah raiding doesn't have to be the zenith of an MMORPG experience.  At least not traditional raiding (ie. something that means you *must* be in a powerful guild with a huge roster of players and be able to dedicate masses of time to the organisation of- and the actual playing of- encounters that you repeat over and over in order to be able to get to the next similar raid cycle).

    I would like to see dungeons that a single 'normal' group, as long as they are skilled and experienced, could do and get 'the best' gear in the game.

    Also, I'd like to see having 'the best' gear in the game not matter so much.  I'd like to be able, if I am a skilled and experienced player, to take part in the most challenging combat without having to have 'the best' gear in the game.

    The 'end game' (whatever that is) doesn't have to be an endless cycle of higher and higher 'tiers' of raids as long as the modern exponential power/gear progression pattern is avoided.

    • 388 posts
    August 20, 2019 4:23 PM PDT

     

     

    I think what they are shooting for here is what they did with EQ and Plane armor. 

    If you saw a cleric run past you in full (or mostly full) Purple Gorgeous Plate from head to toe, you knew, he went to Hate to get that. and Hate was very dangerous. 

    I remember having all the purple but replaced the boots with GeBs, and then as new loots came, I changed out pieces. I remember the Emerald Dragonscale BP that was BRIGHT green, it was awesome looking (velious) so I had a Bright Green BP, Purple Legs, Gold Boots, Purple helm, silver wrist, and red arms. I looked like a Christmas tree when Velious hit, but everyone knew my stuff was the best in the game. and i loved it even tho hardly any of it matched. I really hated it when armor dye became a thing.  Ruined armor in EQ. 

    I also love love love the fact that I can toggle off cosmetics and not see it. Brilliant solution. I don't have to see it. but those that like it, can see it. win win for both. I will hardly ever turn on cosmetics, but maybe while we are medding or something I might flick it on and see what things look like then switch it back off.  hopefully it can be hotbuttoned. on/off 

    all in all, i get the matchy matchy "sets", just please pantheon, be creative here. not everything has to match. 

    • 1019 posts
    August 20, 2019 4:50 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    The 'end game' (whatever that is) doesn't have to be an endless cycle of higher and higher 'tiers' of raids as long as the modern exponential power/gear progression pattern is avoided.

     

    But how? It's a level based game, eventually, even the slowest progression adverse people are going to get max level.  So that means the developers will always be making the next exp pack with the next set of gear that will have better stats.

    • 438 posts
    August 20, 2019 5:06 PM PDT
    That’s to say items have a level requirement? Very rare group gear could drop to compete against raid gear. Not saying that’s good or bad. Also a lot of crafters would love the gear they can make later on compete on a level of raid gear
    • 116 posts
    August 20, 2019 6:00 PM PDT

    Kittik said:

    disposalist said:

    The 'end game' (whatever that is) doesn't have to be an endless cycle of higher and higher 'tiers' of raids as long as the modern exponential power/gear progression pattern is avoided.

     

    But how? It's a level based game, eventually, even the slowest progression adverse people are going to get max level.  So that means the developers will always be making the next exp pack with the next set of gear that will have better stats.

    You are referring to Vertical progression (ever onward and upward) and Pantheon has stated they also want Horizontal progression (let’s take things sideways).

    What if gear (set items) also require efforts of crafters, or questing, or trading, or exploration?  How gear is acquired is really only limited by imagination (and some appropriate code).

     

    • 388 posts
    August 20, 2019 7:11 PM PDT

     

    You are referring to Vertical progression (ever onward and upward) and Pantheon has stated they also want Horizontal progression (let’s take things sideways).

    What if gear (set items) also require efforts of crafters, or questing, or trading, or exploration?  How gear is acquired is really only limited by imagination (and some appropriate code).

     

    That's actually a really interesting idea. What if you could get Hate like armor, but later instead of having to replace it entirely, maybe crafters could add stats later with the right ingredients, or you could quest to add an Aura or ability or stat etc, Some other way to expland whatever armor you Have. If you never get more than a leather tunic with +1 str. maybe later you can add stats in alternative way vs raiding. hmm maybe cap stats on "Epic" level gear? 


    This post was edited by Flapp at August 20, 2019 7:13 PM PDT
    • 768 posts
    August 21, 2019 3:34 AM PDT

    @Flapp an interesting suggestion there. Check out https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/unlocking-hidden-potential-in-gear.257/ for another related discussion on it.

    Raid encounters might be in the game, however this might not be defining the game as a whole. 

    Raid gear might have it's unique appearances, but then again, so might crafted gear. 

    Allow me to elaborate a bit;

    If you were to find that one master crafter that knows that rare recipe. You have a component and you contact that crafter and are able to meet their "price". Or you just happend to be friends with them. 

    Now this crafter goes at it and constructs this unique piece for you. What this means is, you can now walk around strudding with your rare item. Everyone will know that you were able to obtain the rare components and were able to effort that mastercrafters "price". So there you are.

    Going a bit further now, but still on topic, now you have unique items that can be worn that might be at pace with raid gear or other rare loot from a kill or quest. One is not per se better then the other. They can coexist and might be switched on and off depending on your future encounter requirements/tactics.

    Raiding is still present in the game, but the game isn't raidcentric. Raiding is an option in certain content/parts of Terminus, but it's not defining a high player's abilities to strud. (If you see where I'm going with this.)

    Raiding can be the toughest thing to do when you think about killing a mob. Questing and obtaining crafted gear, might be just as demanding. Each there own. But the appearance of all resulting items, might be equally worth showing off. And in time there might be plenty of occasions where players seek out raid encounters below their max challenge, just for the sake of appearance gear or crafting components.

    I can only hope that VR keeps in mind to design such a thing as "Epic Crafters". Those players could be really rare and seldom seen, but they could offer something more then what killdrops could offer. (I could give you an entire story where an adventuring/high end player, would have a huge hurdle to take if they want to reach another player (him being that epic crafter). This could contain quests, factions, languages, portals, unique crafting stations or components, time of day/year, kills or betrayals etc..all this to actually be able to connect to another (epic crafter-) player and be at the correct spot to get your Epic item made BY A PLAYER.)


    This post was edited by Barin999 at August 21, 2019 3:39 AM PDT
    • 542 posts
    August 21, 2019 3:48 AM PDT

    I have often been wondering about another type of gear progression.Where gear literally progresses with the character
    Gains new properties ,auras or stats depending on the way you play,the areas you visit,strong weather conditions you faced and survived etc.

    But then why would players ever change a piece for another? A certain threshold is needed so players still
    can be excited about other gear they find.
    Maybe the progression you made on a piece of gear is saved in the form of templates in the crafting system.
    And at the point you've outgrown the piece(or find a nicer one),you could either craft a new item like it with the template
    or temper and alter the new gear you find to fit the characteristics of your former gear.
    This way players could really create their own unique blend ,like a unique Flapp's bard tunic with the aura of the former piece.
    Ofourse there would have to be certain choices to be made in the sense that you couldn't pick all the best stats,auras and abilities & pack them together
    but in a way that you have to make difficult choices for what you think is best for you

    This goes for looks too btw,certain new ornaments and upgrade components/styles could unlock as templates based on certain bosses you defeated, x amount of monsters you slew etc


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 21, 2019 3:52 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    August 21, 2019 4:07 AM PDT

    There is always the possibility that VR could split Raid abilities and Group abilities into two categories.  Raid gear gains situational stats to counter raid abilities but the gear is no better for group content then the best of the group gear.

    This way really challenging group content can reward effectively the same as really challenging raid gear but for different purposes.

    Another way could be that group content focuses on each member being as versatile as possible and raid content requires people to be as specialized as possible.  The group gear would have more balanced stats while raid gear would have single stat focuses of high magnitude but at the sacrifice of versatility.

    This would be reflected by a single class that has abilities that primarily utilize 3 different stats.  In a group setting you need that party member to be able to use all 3 interchangeably.  In a raid setting you will want three different characters of that class focused on each of those primary stats so that they can use the ability at raid scale.

    • 438 posts
    August 21, 2019 5:13 AM PDT
    “There is always the possibility that VR could split Raid abilities and Group abilities into two categories. Raid gear gains situational stats to counter raid abilities but the gear is no better for group content then the best of the group gear.“

    I really like this idea. Would definitely put a damper and rushing to max and having raid gear be end all be all. (Note: I do love raiding, and seeing people who’ve put in a lot of effort and seeing the rewards of hard content the majority of people won’t get to for whatever reason.)
    • 413 posts
    August 21, 2019 5:16 AM PDT

    I get just excited for a level 10 rare weapon drop from skeleton, as I do for a level 50 weapon.  End game is exactly that "end of game".  Horizontal leveling is what I want delivered in this VR product.  Level 1 - 10 needs to be just as meaningful as 50-60.  No matter where you are hunting, there should always be a chance for some type of rare loot to drop.  If raiding is in the game it should intergraded into all level ranges.  Put a big spin on what raiding is in Panteon, then call it something else.  Remove the concept of "End Game Content" it's an oximoron

     

    My Raiding experience:

    wait an hour for everyone to assemble

    30 peeps beatup on one Mob boss

    30 peeps wipe

    everyone blames everyone else's gear.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Zevlin at August 21, 2019 5:18 AM PDT
    • 1019 posts
    August 21, 2019 5:23 AM PDT

    Caine said:

    30 peeps wipe

    everyone blames everyone else's gear.

    Hahaha, so true.

    • 2756 posts
    August 21, 2019 5:37 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    disposalist said:

    The 'end game' (whatever that is) doesn't have to be an endless cycle of higher and higher 'tiers' of raids as long as the modern exponential power/gear progression pattern is avoided.

     

    But how? It's a level based game, eventually, even the slowest progression adverse people are going to get max level.  So that means the developers will always be making the next exp pack with the next set of gear that will have better stats.

    The important word is "exponential".  Of course, in a level-based game, power will increase as levels go up, but modern MMOs seem to have gone with an exponential model where, with each expansion, the previous 'best' gear is made relatively rubbish and gear becomes almost a 'barrier' to experiencing new content.

    I don't think that's necessary or desireable.  People are going to want to experience the new content because it's a new challenge and it's fun.  New gear my be somewhat more powerful if there was a level range increase in the expansion (and there doesn't even *need* to be a big level increase with each piece of new content, to be honest), but not to such a degree that you *have* to have it to do the new top level content.  More linear than exponential.  Perhaps even more sideways than even linear.

    I'm liking some of the ideas about enhancing existing gear also.  Maybe an expansion enables 'messing around' with existing gear more than replacing it?

    • 413 posts
    August 21, 2019 5:52 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Kittik said:

    disposalist said:

    The 'end game' (whatever that is) doesn't have to be an endless cycle of higher and higher 'tiers' of raids as long as the modern exponential power/gear progression pattern is avoided.

     

    But how? It's a level based game, eventually, even the slowest progression adverse people are going to get max level.  So that means the developers will always be making the next exp pack with the next set of gear that will have better stats.

    The important word is "exponential".  Of course, in a level-based game, power will increase as levels go up, but modern MMOs seem to have gone with an exponential model where, with each expansion, the previous 'best' gear is made relatively rubbish and gear becomes almost a 'barrier' to experiencing new content.

    I don't think that's necessary or desireable.  People are going to want to experience the new content because it's a new challenge and it's fun.  New gear my be somewhat more powerful if there was a level range increase in the expansion (and there doesn't even *need* to be a big level increase with each piece of new content, to be honest), but not to such a degree that you *have* to have it to do the new top level content.  More linear than exponential.  Perhaps even more sideways than even linear.

    I'm liking some of the ideas about enhancing existing gear also.  Maybe an expansion enables 'messing around' with existing gear more than replacing it?

    Gear does not have to be the deciding factor on how powerful your character is.  Thats just how MMOs evovled.

    Atmospheres, Colored Magic and weather should make gear entirely situational.  The perception system and "skills" learned via the "Horizontal Leveling System" could or should have an effect on gear.

    It would be cool if some rare preception ping that I acquired during adventuring during level 11, could have an effect on some gear I looted in an expansion down the road.

    The combination of "Learn Ability or Skill" + Colored Magic + Atmosphere + Gear = Unique awesome situtional gear.


    This post was edited by Zevlin at August 21, 2019 5:53 AM PDT