Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Would You Rather - Inflation or Starvation

    • 1019 posts
    August 14, 2019 4:43 AM PDT

    Logged into EQ2 the other day.  Level 21 rare armor.  200 plat!

    Someone was talking in another thread about how in EQ they couldn't afford all their spells at early levels.

    Would you Rather inflation and over saturation of money be the problem, or would you like to see that at level 1 a Plat is worth A LOT and at level 50 a Plat is worth A LOT?

     

    I lean towards the starvation side.  I'd rather money be scare and valuable.  I'd like to see money sinks EveRyWHerE!  Housing would be a great money sink, what would be some others?

    • 839 posts
    August 14, 2019 5:07 AM PDT
    Starvation for sure, I think scratching around trying to make up enough money to get the next upgrade is great and maybe a real underrated part of the difficulty of eq, if you could afford decent stuff early on in EQ then a lot of the gameplay becomes simplified and less dangerous. Second time around, sure we twink it up a bit, but that 1st run through should be a struggle to balance finances (of course the exception is some one who is a Pantheon entrepreneur who primarily plays to build wealth from trading etc)
    • 116 posts
    August 14, 2019 5:49 AM PDT

    I would prefer that class abilities NOT be a commodity, c’mon- are melee skills gonna be that way?

     

    But, to answer the OP, I choose the starvation route. 

    • 2756 posts
    August 14, 2019 6:23 AM PDT

    I (and I think most people here) would prefer starvation. We *want* the struggle to make the game worthwhile.

    That doesn't have to mean everything has to have a platinum price tag, though.  There are better ways to measure 'worth' and to 'earn' things.

    • 297 posts
    August 14, 2019 6:39 AM PDT

    The thing about modern EQ and its economy is, outside of buying spells/discs, plat is completely unnecessary. Things are ridiculously expensive, but you don't need to buy things from other players unless you want to. You can play the game entirely without worrying about it.

    At the end of the day, the player economy is really only about twinking alts and skipping content. If the server is flooded with millions of plat because of a runaway inflated economy, it really doesn't matter very much.

    I would prefer to see plat inflation kept in check so that when I do want conveniences like buying tradeskill materials from other players instead of farming it myself, it's reasonable to assume I could earn enough plat to do so. 

    I don't think things like spells and melee abilities should be difficult to acquire if they are class-defining and end up being essentially required for you to have in order to find a group that wants you to come along. That just creates a playerbase of haves and have nots for no compelling purpose.

    • 2138 posts
    August 14, 2019 6:50 AM PDT

    starvation.

    I would like to see the only reason a player is selling stuff, for alot less than what a merchant will sell it, is because they are overladen with TS mats or whatever and want to unload and not have to go back into town and bonus that another player is there to buy it.

    I liked having to decide which spells I could afford, did I want damage over shields? could I back fill later? and with spells every four levels I could go back and back-fill and experiment. tbh some of the Ae's were not used.

     

     

     

     

    • 1921 posts
    August 14, 2019 7:41 AM PDT

    I'd prefer starvation, given these choices.  But to elaborate..

    An escrow-barter forced-temporal-delay economy between players for non-commodities, and infinite NPC demand for crafted items (without currency rewards) would be a good starting point.
    However, they have made it clear that mobs will drop both equippable items and currency, directly.  As long as that's true, inflation/MUDflation/currency devaluation is guaranteed.
    Sure would be nice to see a document, podcast, video, or a single line of text from their on-staff Economist.

    • 2419 posts
    August 14, 2019 8:41 AM PDT

    I think that the concept of starvation vs inflation (though more accurately it should be undersupply and oversupply) is a bit too simplistic because it does not address the issue of to what degree is a pleyer required to purchase from an NPC throughout their progression?  Typically, only in the early levels are you wholly dependent upon NPCs to provide you goods: Spells, Food, Drink representing the vast majority of purchases.  But quite quickly, NPCs no longer provide Spells and you can switch from buying their Food/Drink to either making it on your own or buying from other players.

    I'd hazard to guess that by level 10 or so the frequency at which an NPC is the sole supplier of a given resource will be minimal.  So yes, you starve in the early levels because your ability to earn income is limited and the costs of necessary goods represent a very high percentage of your income.  Later on that balance falls the other way.

    A limted duration, static NPC economy, where the sale price/buy price of any given item remains unchanged, will always excerbate the inflation inherent in the system.

    VR will need to keep NPCs as an unavoidable source for providing goods to players by having some required items/supplies common across all classes/races be only obtainable from NPCs.

    • 945 posts
    August 14, 2019 8:55 AM PDT

    The economy will always be inflated in an MMO (eventually) due to the nature of supply and demand in a virtual world where people can just stop participating in the economy at any time and then come back to it later with more money than they need.  VR would have to make money sinks that would suck the fun out of the game for players that aren't playing to be day traders/stock brokers.  

     

    • 1315 posts
    August 14, 2019 9:02 AM PDT

    Neither

    I want to see floating values on NPC buy/sell prices, NPC cash drops (would be better if mobs did not drop cash at all just things that can be sold for cash), NPC services and Luxury item costs.

    The NPC tagged items will have a relative value to the total server cash such that killing 20 level 5 mobs will give you enough rewards to buy a level 5 skill.  As the total cash value of the server goes up then so do drops and costs.  As the total goes down drops and costs go down.

    Luxury items such as vanity mounts and pets, housing, cosmetics, getting yourself voted Mayor of a town for a week, and player trade sales taxes will be how bulk cash leaves the system.

    • 145 posts
    August 14, 2019 9:25 AM PDT

    I prefer starvation. In my experience with EQ1 and Vanguard both had a limited supply of currency to begin with. EQ had hill giants in rathe mountains which paid handsomely but there was a limited supply of those roaming around. Vanguard was especially hard. I remember harvesting and harvesting and getting good amounts for materials and it still seemed like it took a lot to accumulate a only a couple platinum. Vanguard used housing and later on abilities got more expensive to help get money out of circulation. But the journey to accumulating the wealth was a lot of fun. I'd save up for a ship in VG or spend money on housing materials. 

    Using other methods to get money was nice. I could spend my time harvesting and relaxing and chatting while making some money. Then take that money and buy some things that required more effort and in game skills to do.

    I'm not saying I want currency to be near impossible to get. I would like all aspects of the game to contribute to getting money such as harvesting, crafting, adventuring. But I would like for it to be a struggle to get a good amount of wealth.

    • 1019 posts
    August 14, 2019 9:48 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    I think that the concept of starvation vs inflation (though more accurately it should be undersupply and oversupply) is a bit too simplistic because it does not address the issue of to what degree is a pleyer required to purchase from an NPC throughout their progression?  Typically, only in the early levels are you wholly dependent upon NPCs to provide you goods: Spells, Food, Drink representing the vast majority of purchases.  But quite quickly, NPCs no longer provide Spells and you can switch from buying their Food/Drink to either making it on your own or buying from other players.

    I'd hazard to guess that by level 10 or so the frequency at which an NPC is the sole supplier of a given resource will be minimal.  So yes, you starve in the early levels because your ability to earn income is limited and the costs of necessary goods represent a very high percentage of your income.  Later on that balance falls the other way.

    A limted duration, static NPC economy, where the sale price/buy price of any given item remains unchanged, will always excerbate the inflation inherent in the system.

    VR will need to keep NPCs as an unavoidable source for providing goods to players by having some required items/supplies common across all classes/races be only obtainable from NPCs.

    Do you think a mechanic where at higher levels not only do prices of a recipe go up exponentially, but their availability drops also?

    • 768 posts
    August 14, 2019 1:32 PM PDT

    @Kittik, this topic is too juicy to not sink my teeth in. Starvation.

    I agree that plat (or other high value coin) should always be of the same "hard earned" value for all players.

    It seems to me, that one does not need cash drops from every mobs (animals or ghostlike creatures for example, should not provide you with a bag of coins). 

    Touching the importance of choice- comment of Manouk, I strongly agree there. How and when you spend your coin should be impactful and something to really think twice about.

    One way is to devalue the item drastically after purchase? (combined with the design where purchased NPC items loose 50% of their value and can only be sold back to npc's. AND player made items are the only thing to be sold in broker or auction houses)

    @Trasak, lovely suggestion about fluctuating value of items. I'd like to see that linked to the approach of ESO shops. Where npc's only have limited supply to sell or able to sell things the player sold back to them. (I believe, we already had a nice chat about how items could devalue over time, so I won't go into that here).

    Indeed Luxury and fluff/cosmetic items should cost a tremendous amount of hard earned cash. This could give the owner a good feeling of high esteem in the community and themselves.

    Another way to 'hinder' gaining an overload on cash, is by decreasing the cash rewards/returns of alts as you play more and more alts to X level. In short this means, if you max out 1 toon and roll an alt, that alt would gain only X% cash (mind you, cash only). The 2nd alt could again drop lower and so on, up to a fix point where any other alt will have the same minimum cash reward. This might not to everyone's liking, but if you have no choice..I wouldn't stumble over that design choice. (I expect Vandraad to really dislike this idea.)

    Finally, some links to other discussions about money sinks in Pantheon @Kittik.

    https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/crafters-roundtable-sinks-no-not-the-kitchen-kind.275/#post-3471

    https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/crafters-roundtable-limits-on-selling-items.242/#post-3262

    The last word hasn't been said, but it's a interesting read.

    As levels go up, the distance to a town, shop or npc might become a factor when it comes to value of purchased resources and obtained gear.

    In case weight becomes of interest, this in turn could be of importance. As gear gets better, heavier, shinier, the consequence might be that npc respond differently towards the value of that item. (just think of a scenario where you try to sell a beautiful granite bathtub to someone at the local marketplace) Npc's might be designed to react differently towards an orc bangle compared to a dwarven bangle, depending on their standing towards that race. This may seem strange, but if distance remains a key factor in Pantheon, this could be a subtle way to 'play around' with the value of items that COULD be sold high, but you're just not in the right region to get that much value of it. (not including the region broker system that pantheon has mentioned before)

    "The more you have, the more you need." Is a saying around here. And this could be applied to the player leveling up. The upkeep of things could be much higher and as a high level the return you get from an outleveled item might be drastically lower, in comparison to someone of a lower level. So in order to get the same amount of return, that high player would have to put in much more time and more of the same item. 

    Lastly, I like your suggestion there Kittik. In case there is such a thing as loot-memory. One might have X% chance on obtaining the item from a drop. This could depend on multiple factors; level, risk, #groupmembers, method of combat, rarity, value, etc. When the player has looted that item, the initial %chance of obtaining the item from a next drop in the same circumstances, might be decreased. And could again be so when that player loots that item for a third time. Up to a point, where the %chance for many players consuming that level content is equalised and very low for all. Making the item again rise in value due to the low input flow on the market by the players. (if you see where I'm going at).

     

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at August 14, 2019 1:37 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    August 14, 2019 2:05 PM PDT

    Kittik said:

    Vandraad said:

    I think that the concept of starvation vs inflation (though more accurately it should be undersupply and oversupply) is a bit too simplistic because it does not address the issue of to what degree is a pleyer required to purchase from an NPC throughout their progression?  Typically, only in the early levels are you wholly dependent upon NPCs to provide you goods: Spells, Food, Drink representing the vast majority of purchases.  But quite quickly, NPCs no longer provide Spells and you can switch from buying their Food/Drink to either making it on your own or buying from other players.

    I'd hazard to guess that by level 10 or so the frequency at which an NPC is the sole supplier of a given resource will be minimal.  So yes, you starve in the early levels because your ability to earn income is limited and the costs of necessary goods represent a very high percentage of your income.  Later on that balance falls the other way.

    A limted duration, static NPC economy, where the sale price/buy price of any given item remains unchanged, will always excerbate the inflation inherent in the system.

    VR will need to keep NPCs as an unavoidable source for providing goods to players by having some required items/supplies common across all classes/races be only obtainable from NPCs.

    Do you think a mechanic where at higher levels not only do prices of a recipe go up exponentially, but their availability drops also?

    A recipe for something, whatever it is, that can be crafted at a low skill level should have a cost commensurate with the 'value' of the item produced.  Whereas a recipe for crafting a very high skilled item should have a much more significant cost. 

    Think about it from the NPC's side of things:  You're a baker and you've developed a recipe for plain white bread.  Simple..easy..cheap.  The recipe has but 3 ingredients and is very easy to make.  To make more money you decide to sell that recipe.  Given how cheap and simple it is the recipe is also cheap.

    But a recipe for a Mille-Feuille (aka Napoleon) where you have more ingredients (some of which could be rare and expensive), many more steps in preparation (possibly even multiple sub-combines) all of which requires a very high skill to make.  You would sell that recipe for much more money would you not?

    You then take into account supply and demand.  1 person goes into the bakery to buy the Napoleon recipe and the baker says "that will be 1pp".  A few minutes later another player comes in and buys the recipe.  The baker sells it again for 1pp but starts to think he might be seeing more demand for that recipe.  And a minute later another player some in and wants to buy the recipe but now it is 1pp 4gp.  After that sale nobody comes in to buy the recipe for days, weeks even..so the baker takes the price down below 1pp in hopes of drumming up more sales.

    If you then look at direct commodity purchases, the system should be designed in such a way that the quality of items you need increases as you level. Going back to food as an example, the simple ration you bought for 2cp at level 1 was fine at that level, but at level 40 eating those same ration would be require eating them literally non-stop.  Instead you would need to be buying far more nutritious, larger and consequently, more expensive faire.

    The point in all this is that NPCs must maintain a constant presence in the supply chain.  No matter your race, class, how you play the game, whether you indulge in tradeskills or not, purchasing from (not sellign to) NPCs needs to be a routine thing...unavoidable.  NPCs exist to take money out of the market and they do it by selling routinely used items that cannot be obtained by any other means using a pricing structure that responds to changes in the market.  Accomplishing this does necessitate VR having an actual economist on staff.

    • 2138 posts
    August 14, 2019 2:20 PM PDT

    Barin999 said:

     

    In case weight becomes of interest, this in turn could be of importance. As gear gets better, heavier, shinier, the consequence might be that npc respond differently towards the value of that item. (just think of a scenario where you try to sell a beautiful granite bathtub to someone at the local marketplace) Npc's might be designed to react differently towards an orc bangle compared to a dwarven bangle, depending on their standing towards that race. This may seem strange, but if distance remains a key factor in Pantheon, this could be a subtle way to 'play around' with the value of items that COULD be sold high, but you're just not in the right region to get that much value of it. (not including the region broker system that pantheon has mentioned before)

     

     

    Exactly! The Nice bathtub would be worth a mint in Thronefast the perfect thing to grace a fine home. But in the frontier town of aveandyrs pass? it's just a tub. If I need to make room for provisions or the particular moss that only grows here for a poultice I know I will need, i'm going to have to go for the moss.

    • 3852 posts
    August 15, 2019 7:25 AM PDT

    I much prefer money to be hard to get and for it to mean something. Platinum? No one should have platinum for quite a while!

    Weeks into the game let us have copper and silver and maybe someone that plays 24/7 will have a gold piece. Platinum should be a distant dream.

    • 2419 posts
    August 15, 2019 8:05 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    I much prefer money to be hard to get and for it to mean something. Platinum? No one should have platinum for quite a while!

    Weeks into the game let us have copper and silver and maybe someone that plays 24/7 will have a gold piece. Platinum should be a distant dream.

    The fallacy with the underlined parts is that, given time, platinum still becomes very common and many will have piles of the stuff regardless.  And 'weeks into the game' for a game that should last a decade is an insignificant amount of time.

    • 1479 posts
    August 15, 2019 8:12 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    I'd prefer starvation, given these choices.  But to elaborate..

    An escrow-barter forced-temporal-delay economy between players for non-commodities, and infinite NPC demand for crafted items (without currency rewards) would be a good starting point.
    However, they have made it clear that mobs will drop both equippable items and currency, directly.  As long as that's true, inflation/MUDflation/currency devaluation is guaranteed.
    Sure would be nice to see a document, podcast, video, or a single line of text from their on-staff Economist.

     

    I do think you have opted for a blind opinion about a false problem. Dropping coins and gear is a pointless trouble, if coin don't drop, people will trade items and favours, and will simply stack items instead of money. Wether both drops or not is irrelevant, the true inflation problem comes from the single fact games are designed to be enjoyable and not to have 90% chances you will have trouble maintaining a descent income to continue investing in your characters, with 10% you will simply be overwealthy.

     

    Cut that out of games, and you get a dead game. People don't play to be poor, they play to be heroes, and if they can't : They have enough trouble in real life not to add another layer.