Everyone likes buffs and a part of mana management is to keep them alive, so i was wondering how the durations on them could or should be possible to increase ??
Like what would be the factor for it like your level/skill/ability scores/AA points/ or a mix of above ??
And how mutch can you increase the duration 10/25/50/100% or perhaps a dynamic approatch like that buff just cant be increasead and another like 25% and another 100%
what do you all think ?
Should the durations increase as you level? Yes, but (there is always a but), they cannot be increased to such a duration that you can just run to a common meeting place, get all the buffs then go adventuring for hours. Now what that duration might be is up for debate. Personally I think 1 hour maximum.
I think they should start smaller and increase as you level and then potentially be augmented by gear and potentially an AA system should we ever get one. Can't really say the max/min durations. Until we know all of what's what it's best to wait til the testing to tweak those numbers.
I've been back playing p99 (just started playing) and I'm still liking the duration of most buffs, generally about 30 minutes. They last long enough to spend time adventuring, but you still need to pay attention to them. Also, if someone high level comes by and hits you with buffs, generally it's a nicety for a while.
One thing I'd like to see, is that buffs have a minimum level. This level isn't the minimum to cast it on that person, but more so the minimum you can be to get maximum duration of the buff. So for example, a level 44 comes along and casts a 30 minute buff on a level 1, it may last for only 5 minutes, 10 minutes on a level 20, and the full 30 minutes on anyone high enough level to group with a level 44 person (the level required to get the spell) and get xp.
I actually like the idea of the buff scaling with the receiver. They should be better than normal, but not the same as if they were the high level.
It fits with VR's idea of everything being usable but nothing being overpowered. They previously talked about a low level character being able to use a very powerful sword, but not to its full effect due to their skill levels being low.
In EQ people would hang around trading areas waiting for the chance of high-level buffs rather than actually playing because the boost was so enormous that playing without them seemed relatively pointless.
It also spoiled the group experience when someone with high level buffs would come along, join in and trivialise the content for everyone. You'd end up with players getting to mid level not knowing how to properly play because they'd so often played with super buffs they didn't know how to survive on their own skills.
I do however like the idea of buffs geting better with the caster level too. Adds some interest and feeling of progression even if there is just a small enhancement as you level (or if you specialise or enhance them in some other way). Some sort of ability mastery if you use them a lot would be nice.
As the game evolves around camping instead of constantly moving, i don't think its a very bad idea to have buffs get a longer duration as you level or get gear to improve this. Also i do think a lower level should get the full duration of the buff compared to the caster. It should however be mitigated to be more suited to their level.
It should be stronger than a lower level version, but it should not double or tripple hitpoints for example if it doesn't do the exact same for a higher level. Something being stronger can also relate to other features like, it is far less likely to be dispelled by lower level mobs. In this case it could even have only a 5% bonus compared to on par buffs, but still be worth a lot as you take away a concern to a degree but a degree only. It could also carry other benefits instead of the sole purpose it would have on an equal level character. Like increase resists or add 5% to gear bonusses the player already has, maybe even skill bonusses. Maybe even give infravision if it normally wouldn't.
I think there is a balance to be struck where buffs are the benefit a specific class should bring to your group, but if that class brings nothing other than constantly refreshing their buffs, that is not fun to play, nor is it even necessarily needed to be full-time paid attention to.
Perhaps in-group buffs should be permanent as long as that character remains in the group. This frees the character up to contribute to the group in other ways while still maintaining that preference for having the character actually with you (rather than hitting up the social hub, collecting buffs, and leaving them behind).
Out of the group, the buffs should have a limited duration, say 30 minutes or an hour, so that interaction with that class still needs to happen frequently.
Multiple classes could have some overlap with the buffs they provide, so you don't end up with a situation where a group requires you having a Cleric, a Shaman, an Enchanter, and a Druid (as an example) to get all the buffs a group would want to have.
Dark Age of Camelot had buffing classes that had a set number of buffs they could have active at once and anyone in their party received them but no one outside their group did. It was abused by putting a boxed character in a faraway safe point and otherwise boosting a solo characters power level. I would add a max radius to the buff auras to combat it.
Otherwise I am a big believer in active synergistic support. Different classes should be able to perform actions that both directly do something but also benefit other characters ability to perform actions. Refreshing a buff every 1-10 minutes is kinda dumb and not very interactive unless it is intended to be a resource burning buff such that you only are intended to use it at key tactical points.
So I would divide buffs into three categories; always on group only buff auras, short term reactive situational buffs, and synergistic secondary effects. I don’t believe in long term buffs for people who are not sharing/dividing exp with the caster as it is a form of shortcutting content similar to OP gear twinking (gear should all scale with level up to its maximum level).
I agree with Trasak - not shockingly after my years in DAOC. Buffs that benefit a group or a raid should have strict distance limitations so that they benefit only characters actually with the group or raid.
I further agree that for routine buffs it is neither necessary nor desirable to require them to be refreshed - let them apply as long as the buffer is in the group or raid - but not beyond that. Obviously as Trasak says this does not apply to more powerful short term buffs intended to be cast during or immediately before a difficult fight and with significant cooldown periods.
My first serious attempt at a MMO was Asheron's Call. Back when EQ was still fairly new. It had strong points but what drove me away were all the buffbots. Come to town. Have a bot buff you with a 15 minute or 30 minute buff (I forget the exact period it has been almost 20 years). Go kill things. Return to the bot to get the buff recast. Aaarghhhhh - terrible game design. Left after a month to go to DAOC which I enjoyed far more until the cataclysmically bad Trials of Atlantis expansion. Yes EQ might have been a better choice but not every Pantheon supporter can be an EQ veteran - just most.
I prefer the way EQ1 did it by the level of the caster and the level of the recipient.
The higher the level of the caster the longer the spell would last, but if there was too large of a level range between the caster and recipient then only certain spells would be available as they were low enough for the recipient to receive.
Rint
Rint said:I prefer the way EQ1 did it by the level of the caster and the level of the recipient.
The higher the level of the caster the longer the spell would last, but if there was too large of a level range between the caster and recipient then only certain spells would be available as they were low enough for the recipient to receive.
Is that the way it worked? All I know is I played EQ P99 for a few months recently and every time a high level buff landed on me in East Commons I was suddenly able to solo yellow /con mobs that would have insta-gibbed me before. It was way too much. People just hung out waiting for buffs so they could solo rather than 'waste time' playing without them and having to find a group...
disposalist said:Rint said:I prefer the way EQ1 did it by the level of the caster and the level of the recipient.
The higher the level of the caster the longer the spell would last, but if there was too large of a level range between the caster and recipient then only certain spells would be available as they were low enough for the recipient to receive.
Is that the way it worked? All I know is I played EQ P99 for a few months recently and every time a high level buff landed on me in East Commons I was suddenly able to solo yellow /con mobs that would have insta-gibbed me before. It was way too much. People just hung out waiting for buffs so they could solo rather than 'waste time' playing without them and having to find a group...
They added level restrictions to buffs much later, so P99 likely doesn't reflect that.
Though also any buffs available on P99 should be low enough level to land on any level character regardless.
It depends on what the buffs do and how effective they will be. If mana regen without them is fairly fast then they aren't nearly as important. Ultimately mana regen determines the flow of the group. The healers need mana to constantly heal. If they go to an out of combat situation where the mana regen kicks into high gear as soon as the mob is dead then the mana regen buff becomes much less useful. But if mana regen is like EQ1 then the mana buff gains an entirely new perspective.
If the buff is like clarity in EQ1 then I would like for it to last awhile. At least an hour if it was cast by a higher level. But if there is out of combat regen then any duration works because you regain mana fast enough to keep your group alive between pulls without it. Many little factors should go into determining the length of the buff. Early on in EQ all buffs were not that game changing, but in the end you could grab a 4 hr hp buff that raised your hit points and AC 20-40% that's game changing. It all depends on the severity of the buffs in my opinion.
Buffs that require relatively expensive reagents for that level should also have relatively increased duration. Buying gems as a cleric in EQ could get expensive. Of course it was a personal choice to normally keep everyone in the group buffed to the max, just in case things went south. Quests and harvesting actions that yield spell reagents, instead of only being able to buy them, would be interesting.
a few more things to consider
self buffs/class specific buffs <-> outgoing buffs
For outgoing buffs ,maybe the proximity of the source player of that buff could also play a role
in duration,effectiveness,...
Proximity example ;paladin buff inner fire in a freezing area - the strength of inner fire buff scales based on distance between paladin and other group members
Being grouped or not;
receiving buff of player not in group could only last a few minutes,while grouped with the source player could cause
a buff to have increased duration to up half an hour or so
buffs shouldn't last for more than an encounter.
looking at the skills of each class, it would be ridiculously overpowered if any buff lasted for more than 10 secs at most.
there should be weight in decision making even when it comes to buffs.
i prefer personal player expression and stacking 30 mins buffs shows no skill or decision making ability at all.
stellarmind said:buffs shouldn't last for more than an encounter.
looking at the skills of each class, it would be ridiculously overpowered if any buff lasted for more than 10 secs at most.
there should be weight in decision making even when it comes to buffs.
i prefer personal player expression and stacking 30 mins buffs shows no skill or decision making ability at all.
Are you nuts? Are you really expecting a class to constantly reapply buffs that are needed for every fight? You really want your cleric wasting mana casting the same AC buff every 10 seconds when a fight lasts a minute?
Vandraad said:stellarmind said:buffs shouldn't last for more than an encounter.
looking at the skills of each class, it would be ridiculously overpowered if any buff lasted for more than 10 secs at most.
there should be weight in decision making even when it comes to buffs.
i prefer personal player expression and stacking 30 mins buffs shows no skill or decision making ability at all.
Are you nuts? Are you really expecting a class to constantly reapply buffs that are needed for every fight? You really want your cleric wasting mana casting the same AC buff every 10 seconds when a fight lasts a minute?
take a look at the cleric buffs. any buff lasting more than 10 secs is overpowered.
ethereal armor: increased armor plus glancing hits
awaken bravery: significant hp and armor increase
signet of refreshing: increase on unique class resource
edict of peace: threat reduction
these buffs are encounter changing that can trivalize any fight if it lasts too long.
taking at a look at shaman, enchanter and druids buffs. pantheon buffs are no joke. they are very strong.
Vandraad said:Are you nuts? Are you really expecting a class to constantly reapply buffs that are needed for every fight? You really want your cleric wasting mana casting the same AC buff every 10 seconds when a fight lasts a minute?
LOL this was my thoughts exactly. I wonder if he may be talking about battle buffs that hit a group while in combat. Like using abilities to throw up buffs or someting. Otherwise 10 seconds isn't near long enough. Everyone would be going oom trying to keep buffs up.
I like longer duration buffs it was always a pain when you had to do haste every 12-15 minutes in EQ and clarity/breeze lasted 30m-1hr
Moloka said:Vandraad said:Are you nuts? Are you really expecting a class to constantly reapply buffs that are needed for every fight? You really want your cleric wasting mana casting the same AC buff every 10 seconds when a fight lasts a minute?
LOL this was my thoughts exactly. I wonder if he may be talking about battle buffs that hit a group while in combat. Like using abilities to throw up buffs or someting. Otherwise 10 seconds isn't near long enough. Everyone would be going oom trying to keep buffs up.
I like longer duration buffs it was always a pain when you had to do haste every 12-15 minutes in EQ and clarity/breeze lasted 30m-1hr
all the buffs i've read in the classes are very strong situationally.
it's a personal preference.
mmo classes are like a musical instrument and encounters are the songs.
having a constant note(30 min buff) in my music is mundane if all it does if give me flat stats with no expression.
now if your talking about food buffs or elixirs lasting that long giving flat stats, i'm fine with that. it's a good sink hole and a way to separate the casuals from the hardcore.
Buffs can be balanced, power-wise, to be appropriate howver long they last. Whether you want to have to apply them for every combat, or even multiple times per combat and maybe even per person, per combat multiple times, is not about power it's about the kind of game you want.
Unless you are choosing from a large selection and maybe picking different buffs each fight so that there's some changing tactical choice involved, then having many short duration buffs is just a button pressing chore.
To take forward the musical analogy: Buffs, as used in games like Everquest, are mostly like setting a key, a tempo and a melodic theme for the up-coming sequences of the next part of the show.
The classes are like instruments and each has a toolbar of notes to play. They want to be making meaningful melodies interwoven with the other instruments. They don't want to be hitting some notes over and over in every gap they get just to keep playing.
It's not about 'hardcore' and 'casuals'. Long duration buffs would be in *addition* to a full toolbar of other short term tactical abilities, not instead of. They would be tactical choices that are decided upon and set in advance of a certain section of a dungeon or maybe for a particular raid. In a similar way to selecting which short term abilities you want on your toolbar, you might want to cast some long term buffs, then swap them out for a compliment of per encounter abilities.