I kind of like the idea of a separate server for FTP trial accounts. Make it so that characters can only be played for 30-60 days then the character locks. At that point you can pay to unlock the character and move it to one of the different subscription servers or just start fresh on a subscription server. None of your items would copy over with the character though. This way trial players can play with each other on a basic rules server and actually get to experience the game play without the restrictions of a newbie island.
If subscribers can also make characters that can only exist for 30-60 days then it could be an interesting Esport environment where you set a character creation date then see how far people can get on the server. As characters are constantly being removed from the system there will be almost no high level items feeding into lower level play.
This is a real online virtual world with integrity. There's no reason to have some fake spinoff tutorial zone. If they decide to allow a week/2 week/1 month 5 levels/10 levels trial, cool, whatever, but it should be in the world with everybody else, because that's the point of a game like this. Why design some encapsulated, sequestered zone or server with all the same game mechanics when you can just, you know, play the game.
They could pay streamers to showcase the FTP model, the showcase it on the new players area so they can see first hand what it is like. Otherwise nothing wrong with 20 lvls on a seperate server to showcase the game.
Wise to have it at the start? sure is, but on a seperate server to avoid any spam, cheating etc.. but also pay and its copied to the server of choice.
For gawd sakes please do not give us popups even if the game uses the model from EQ silver free accounts or whatever that drove me nuts. I liked playing with my main group and had extras. But this was way late in the game.
((Why design some encapsulated, sequestered zone or server with all the same game mechanics when you can just, you know, play the game. ))
From the point of view of people trying the game out this is manifestly correct. But free play, even temporary free play billed as a test of the game, attracts griefers and trolls and very immature people who can destroy the experience for everyone else if not severely restricted. I am not saying that all or even most people using a free trial will be griefers or trolls or very immature. I am not even saying most of them. But enough to make life miserable for everyone else without those severe limitations.
Assuming that severe restrictions are needed - and I think this is by far the prevailing opinion among both serious players and developers in the industry - the question becomes how to do it. Perhaps the three most obvious possibilities are:
1. The starter island approach. Full access to all game mechanics and communications but only in a limited part of the game world. An area that subscribers can choose to start in but are not required to. Thus, subscribers can avoid the trolls and griefers but people using the free trial can, you know, play the game. Just not all of the game.
2. A separate server. Much like the starter island in concept. Advantages - it gives free trial players access to more content and it may be easier for the developers to simply have another server identical to the "real" servers than to create a full starter island that is good enough to actually attract people. Disadvantage - people that subscribe - and that *is* the purpose - will have to transfer to a "real" server or start a new character. Transfer may involve loss of name.
3. What you advocate - being on a "real" server with everyone else. Advantage - they will be with everyone else in the real game - I agree this is a plus. Disadvantage - with a high level of probability VR will severely restrict them in terms of access to communications channels and perhaps guilds, trading, and other things. These restrictions will mean they will not be able to, you know, play the game, with anywhere nearly the freedom of the rest of us.
I express no opinion between these options but note merely that letting them play the game in the same manner as everyone else is only possible under options 1 and 2 whereas option 3 gives them the chance to play with the rest of us but takes away access to important game mechanics.
Option 4 - fully free play with no restictions whatsoever other than time and level limits - would be a nightmare.
Keno Monster said:
This is a real online virtual world with integrity. There's no reason to have some fake spinoff tutorial zone. If they decide to allow a week/2 week/1 month 5 levels/10 levels trial, cool, whatever, but it should be in the world with everybody else, because that's the point of a game like this. Why design some encapsulated, sequestered zone or server with all the same game mechanics when you can just, you know, play the game.
If all people actually had integrity then there would be no need for separate servers.
(I personally still am in favor of an optional tutorial walk through to ease new players into the controls and game concepts. I hate when software help files are not linked directly within the software and likewise I think all important information should be accessible or introduced within the game world and not requiring reading 3rd party sites or external resources. But this is a different argument.)
The truth of the matter though is that anything that is FTP is a tool for trolls, cheaters and griefers to do their dirty deeds in anonymous ways. Having FTP characters on my server WILL damage my play experience. Trial options are a great marketing tool but will always introduce significant detractors to the game environment. Even if only 1 in 100 FTP players behaved badly damage the game environment and the ratio is sadly much higher than that.
The more I think about this topic the better I think it is the idea of having a server for the trials
from the point of view of the subscribed player, he has no problem or intake from the trials
from the point of view of the developer, you do not have to create special zones or restrictions and you are controlling the possible malicious abuse of the trials
from the point of view of a trial it has no restrictions that do not allow you to try the real game and know if you like it or not
a game largely based on exploration that doesn't allow you to leave an initial island
or as someone said on the server with others but you can't leave the first noob zone
an exploration game with a test that does not allow you to explore
chat and trade restinctions in a group-based game and socialize
limitation at level 10 I don't know what the pantheon will be like but I think about the old EQ I played a ranger my first spells got them at level 9
for me the line of spells representative of the rangers was the snare if the memory does not fail me you get the first version at level 15 and I would say that I did not start using it correctly until the mid 20's
thought of the pantheon streams that showed us the game none of the characters that were played was less than lvl 10
Can playing up to level 10 be really repetitive of what the game is?
honestly alone I would use a test that restrictive if my only doubt about the game is that my computer could make it work
the only problem that I can see in a special server for trials is that there was not enough population
it occurs to me to solve that in case the population were low that they could do a kind of seasons in the style of games like DIABLO3 or POE where the subcription players could become alters and if they completed a series of objectives
(reaching a certain level, uploading a trade skill, there are not several things) At the end of the season that alter would be transferred to the server of his main character with some kind of bonus as a special title `` rookie master '' or a color of the special name plate or a backpack with a 25% weight reduction linked to the character or account
This way it would be possible to promote a way for the trial server to have a healthy population and join the new ones with a kind part of the community that could guide them better.
I want to apologize because English is not my mother tongue this is a very long post and the google translator may play tricks
PS: the idea is as Trasak said a server with standard rules without any restriction that after a set time the characters are deleted
I am a little disturbed by the amount of people asking for detailed tutorials and walkthroughs build into the game. Part of the reason I am interested in this game is because its systems are going to be obscured. To me, the act of discovery in an MMO is the most enjoyable part. Whether that comes from my own tinkering with things, or another player giving advice. It should be organically learned instead of blasting you in the face with it.
I feel that the basics of MMOs most people know already. If they dont, they are probably young, and thus more able to learn things lol.
Someone further back in the thread mentioned not knowing that a particular crafting skill was available and had wasted a ton of time on acquiring a piece of gear a different way. Why is this a bad thing? Not knowing the optimal or most efficient way to do something is an opportunity to improve. Its an opportunity to discover and learn. You will sigh, maybe curse under your breath, but you will know the better way to do it next time. That information you can pass on to other players or friends.
I'm sure VR will do market and data research to determine actual facts without personal conjecture about what a trial does or doesn't do to the sales of a game. If people are afraid of RMT and the like, the simple solution is to have no trial. Research the game, see if you think you'll like it, and then spend $60. If you get banned for RMT, good. Thanks for the $60.
No trial at all is a bit harsh. I could watch streams for hours and have no idea if the game supports things I consider critical such as a camera angle that doesn't hurt my neck and options to increase font size and move UI elements to convenient locations on the screen. Things having nothing to do with actual gameplay.
In the unlikely event that VR doesn't want to allow trials in the conventional sense, would it bother you (the anti-trial people) if they had an introductory tutorial for non-subscribers? And any subscriber that wanted it. Letting people test drive the character creation system and the basics of how the game works. But if they subscribed they would have the same level 1 character with the same starting gear (or none at all) in the same starting area as anyone else. No gear or experience retained from the tutorial.
dorotea said:No trial at all is a bit harsh. I could watch streams for hours and have no idea if the game supports things I consider critical such as a camera angle that doesn't hurt my neck and options to increase font size and move UI elements to convenient locations on the screen. Things having nothing to do with actual gameplay.
In the unlikely event that VR doesn't want to allow trials in the conventional sense, would it bother you (the anti-trial people) if they had an introductory tutorial for non-subscribers? And any subscriber that wanted it. Letting people test drive the character creation system and the basics of how the game works. But if they subscribed they would have the same level 1 character with the same starting gear (or none at all) in the same starting area as anyone else. No gear or experience retained from the tutorial.
I am more than fine with a trial - VR has already expressed that they are going to do something like this. I am against a tutorial.
This is how I'm defining them:
Trial - A limited exposure to Pantheon for free to see if its the right game for you. Limitations may be level, time, or zone locked. It may include some anti bot or RMT tech to help prevent abuse of the system. This would have to be carefully implemented to not limit real trial players too heavily.
Tutorial - A guide or explanation of how to play Pantheon. "Hit the 'I' key to open your inventory" type of thing. Usually this is explaining basic mechanics of a video game and are super basic. Sometimes they are more interesting, involving some quests or scripted events to get you used to the system.
For a game like Pantheon, I think that any sort of tutorial isn't needed and actually hurts the new player experience. Its immersion breaking, going over mechanics that a majority of players already understand, and if it goes further than that it may remove some of the discovery aspects of the game. If a tutorial is added, I would want it to be the bare minimum.
As for the trial, I think VR should strive for it to be as close to the real game as possible. That means I disagree with the whole "tutorial island" thing. Give them full access to character creation, have them start in the real game, have them progression locked but otherwise full access to the game. When they convert to a subscriber, they keep their character and their gear and move on just like anyone else.
The caveat here is that so protections would have to be in place to avoid bots/gold spammers/etc. I don't know what that looks like, but I expect there are some technologies out there that can help combat that.
dorotea said:
No trial at all is a bit harsh. I could watch streams for hours and have no idea if the game supports things I consider critical such as a camera angle that doesn't hurt my neck and options to increase font size and move UI elements to convenient locations on the screen. Things having nothing to do with actual gameplay.
Ask the streamer or on the forums. Problem solved. Also, how does the in game camera have any effect on your real life ergonomics?
Primalpat said:Trial - A limited exposure to Pantheon for free to see if its the right game for you. Limitations may be level, time, or zone locked. It may include some anti bot or RMT tech to help prevent abuse of the system. This would have to be carefully implemented to not limit real trial players too heavily.
Tutorial - A guide or explanation of how to play Pantheon. "Hit the 'I' key to open your inventory" type of thing. Usually this is explaining basic mechanics of a video game and are super basic. Sometimes they are more interesting, involving some quests or scripted events to get you used to the system.
Your examples can, as you say, be accomplished quite easily within the actual game itself, not with some idiotic set-aside tutorial server garbage. You first log in and you're standing right next to your #%@!% class trainer. In your inventory are several notes, each of which explains many basic things like what a class trainer does, what a tradeskill trainer does, etc. The class trainer can not only sell you spells, but teaches you combat explaining what keys do what. The tradeskill trainer does the same thing. Once you accomplish those things, you can get more notes that have you to talk to the captain of the guard to learn about faction, to go talk to the local merchant guild representative to learn about buying/selling, to go talk to the banker to learn about where to keep all your #%@%.
Nothing else is needed. Besides, it is 2019, long before this game goes live, we'll have streams, Youtube vidoes, dozens of Pantheon Wiki's ('official' and otherwise) so that it would be nigh impossible to not be able to learn everything you needed to know about gameplay, mechanics, etc before you decided to buy.
The last thing I want is VR wasting their time on some tutorial server when there will always be far more important #%$@#% they need to be working before, upto and after release.
Vandraad said:good stuff
Also, we're living in the computer and internet generation. My friend's 1 year old can FLY through both and andorid and IOS controls. If a 1 year old can figure out half a dozen buttons and swipes, do we really need to tell people that "i" is inventory anymore? Are people going to quit because they have to find out how to open the *gasp* menu and adjust settings and controls? Do we need to tell people to right click on a bag in their inventory to open it? That's the type of crap that people ignore, skip, and disable.
Iksar said:A little ironic, no?
Wanting the game to explicitly show new players all the different things they can get into like crafting, diplomacy, whatever else... sounds a little spoon feedy, like something that would go against a "world not game" feel that people who like to figure things out their own way might not like?
I never said anything about spoon feeding people on a trial island. The trial shouldn't be any different than the game is. And Vanguards trial was exactly like the rest of the game. The trial is only so people can get a taste of the game without paying. There are a variety of ways to have a trial area and have it fit the rest of the game. It shouldn't feel any different moving from the trial area to the real game other than a box popping up asking for a subscription.
I dont see anything wrong with trial periods. Forcing people to buy a game to gather a feel for it is archaic.
I agree the trial period should just be a limited version of the game. Allowing you to experience the basic mechanics and ideals.
Having a seperate area, or a separate server doesnt really make sense. If the game is a social game, isolating people is just silly. Especially if someone rolls on in 6 months after release and ends up being on some weird trial island with 2 other people, would just make for a poor game experience.
I know (cause it's my concern too) that trial accounts just make it easy for Gold Spammers etc. But there are other ways to deal with that other than just NOT having a trial.
As for the "study" showing that trials actually reduce profits... well yes. Ofcourse they do. Cause you're not forcing people to buy a game they ultimately wont play lol. That's just an absolutely ridiculous statistic lol.
disposalist said:The problem with a tutorial/trial area (or even server) is one huge draw of Pantheon is community. Impossible to get a feel for that if you are just in a noob zone (which is possibly, later in the game life cycle, very empty).
It would be very different to what VR want (different character levels and player experience levels mixing is hugely important for community and an open world feel).
Yes, there are many issues with trial users mixing in the live game world, but hopefully the experienced VR team can mitigate those.
I don't see another way of properly 'trialing' Pantheon than joining in with the main game.
This is a great point. One could easily argue that a trial would hinder the immersion of the game for sure. If there was a trial in EQ1 I would have missed the ooh and ahh of Crushbone orcs and that nasty Ambassador Dvinn lol they haunted me so much starting out that every character I made went there to shed orc blood.
About the only way to avoid this with a trial is to make the trial characters only trials and have to start over when you subscribe. But that too doesn't aleviate what you're saying. It only side steps it so to speak. Excellent point I hadn't really thought about that. When VG released the trial it did up the subscriber base by quite a bit. I noticed a lot of new faces when they released it. But that was a time in a game when it was on it's last leg just trying to keep things rolling. It inetivably didn't work in the end or the game would still be going I suppose.
Ask the streamer or on the forums. Problem solved. Also, how does the in game camera have any effect on your real life ergonomics? ))
Sorry but I strongly disagree. There is no substitute for getting the feel of the interface and mechanics. Five minutes of moving a character around and experimenting with the interface and the options is worth hours of questions - especially since not all questions actually get answered and not all answers are correct.
Spouse and I both tried SWG long ago. Neither of us could get a camera angle we were really comfortable with so we left after an hour. An aching neck mattered a lot more to us than whether the game was good or bad. Those things do happen.
The thing is also, how many new players do we really have now a days? most of us engaged in MMO's have played them before, so who are we really going to teach now?
A simple game play videos would probally do much better getting you involved and a 20 lvl server to try it out. Putting too much effort and resources into this when we are lucky to teach 1000 new players is just way to much effort.
WASD pretty much is a standard in all games, do we need a tuturial on that?
Crazzie said:The thing is also, how many new players do we really have now a days? most of us engaged in MMO's have played them before, so who are we really going to teach now?
A simple game play videos would probally do much better getting you involved and a 20 lvl server to try it out. Putting too much effort and resources into this when we are lucky to teach 1000 new players is just way to much effort.
WASD pretty much is a standard in all games, do we need a tuturial on that?
Every year there are tens of thousands of gamers joining the gaming community including MMOs. For the most part they are going to be the younger crowd who have only ever played console games. You have to remember there are people who were born after EQ beta started that can now legally buy alcohol. There will be many who have never played a WASD MMO much less one that expects you to use dozens of keys and typing.
A good click through introduction of all the parts of the UI will go a long way to getting their feet wet and ready to play rather than beat there head against the wall because they cannot seem to get their UI to look the same way as their favorite streamer. If dorotea and spouse had a walk through to set the optimal camera angle and locked it in for their user then maybe they would have played.
Ultimately though a Tutorial is not going to take too much time and its possible benefit to new players who are coming in cold will be of supreme importance. It might take some man hours to create but it will likely be from a team not involved with the content creation pipe line anyway.
Depending on a third party to teach players about your game is just bad business. Just throwing new players into an unfamiliar system with no support is bad business. Catering to a Rose tinted glasses elitist mentality is VERY bad business.
dorotea said:Spouse and I both tried SWG long ago. Neither of us could get a camera angle we were really comfortable with so we left after an hour. An aching neck mattered a lot more to us than whether the game was good or bad. Those things do happen.
I'm not trying to be rude, but what does this even mean? The camera angle in a game doesn't change your personal real world ergonomics. Tilting your head doesn't make your in game character see something differently.
Trasak said:Every year there are tens of thousands of gamers joining the gaming community including MMOs. For the most part they are going to be the younger crowd who have only ever played console games. You have to remember there are people who were born after EQ beta started that can now legally buy alcohol. There will be many who have never played a WASD MMO much less one that expects you to use dozens of keys and typing.
A good click through introduction of all the parts of the UI will go a long way to getting their feet wet and ready to play rather than beat there head against the wall because they cannot seem to get their UI to look the same way as their favorite streamer. If dorotea and spouse had a walk through to set the optimal camera angle and locked it in for their user then maybe they would have played.
Ultimately though a Tutorial is not going to take too much time and its possible benefit to new players who are coming in cold will be of supreme importance. It might take some man hours to create but it will likely be from a team not involved with the content creation pipe line anyway.
Depending on a third party to teach players about your game is just bad business. Just throwing new players into an unfamiliar system with no support is bad business. Catering to a Rose tinted glasses elitist mentality is VERY bad business.
Some good points in there as well. A tutorial isn't for everyone, it wouldn't have to be mandatory. It could be optional. Another thing that always bothered me that a trial area might benefit is returning players. Let's say someone quits the game for personal reasons and comes back 2 years later and so much has changed. I have thought about returning to Everquest live a couple of times but the thought of the gear and getting caught up with all the add ons through the later expansions makes my head spin. I always feel lost and don't know where to hunt, where to look for groups, how to obtain better gear. It's handy to have a tutorial showing you what certain stats do, and things that are on gear that weren't when a game launched. I'm not an advocate of mercenaries or flying mounts but they have been known to find their way into games. Learning how to use them would be nice for someone who is returning.
((WASD pretty much is a standard in all games, do we need a tuturial on that?))
Yes. Assuming you use the tern tutorial as I do - a small area where the new player can get used to the interface and commands - rather than a full blown starter island or even an area with half a dozen simple quests. It takes very little developer time to create this type of small area and more new people than you may think will appreciate the chance to become familiar with simple things with no pressure at all. No one else talking to them or asking them to join guilds or groups. Just their character, a few things to interact with, an NPC or two, a few trivial enemies and the like. A true tutorial for the basics. Not all games use WASD and not all people trying out Pantheon will have played other MMOs.
By the way I haven't used WASD in well over a decade and sometimes forget that it is even a way to move around. I use the arrow keys on the far right of my keyboard.
((I'm not trying to be rude, but what does this even mean? The camera angle in a game doesn't change your personal real world ergonomics. Tilting your head doesn't make your in game character see something differently. ))
I neither know nor care what caused it. The choice of camera angles was more limited than in some games and the result for both of us was not pleasant. You can poo-poo it but over the years I have seen more than a few people mention that they feel very uncomfortable playing unusually large or unusually small races for similar reason.
On the issue of tutorials - not free trials - why should anyone possibly care whether other people have a chance to experiment with the interface and controls and camera angles? As long as no one that doesn't feel they need this is forced to go through this with every character - or any character.
Debates over whether to have a separate server for free trials are legitimate. Debates over whether to have a starter island are legitimate. Both sides have rational arguments. I see no rational argument against an optional tutorial where people can become familiar with the controls and interface and then emerge with no extra experience or possessions in the same exact place as those who clicked the "skip starter tutorial" option.
dorotea said:((WASD pretty much is a standard in all games, do we need a tuturial on that?))
Yes. Assuming you use the tern tutorial as I do - a small area where the new player can get used to the interface and commands
That will be in the game..it's called their starter city. Humans will have the city of Thronefast to learn the interface and commands, all within the safety of those big walls and guards. No worries about dying to A_Large_Rat_01 while they are trying to figure how to move from point A to point B.
Oh, and the game will have a player's manual with it..you know, that book/PDF with the instructions nobody reads? That is all any semi-intelligent quasi-literate knuckle dragging mouth breathing troglodyte needs to learn the game basics.