Forums » Developer's Journal

Requiring Crowd Control

    • 60 posts
    July 21, 2019 6:08 PM PDT
    Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included.

    My concern is that the game only has two designated Crowd Control classes Enchanter and Bard that the desire or need for the classes may offset gameplay.

    I don’t mind this for raids or prestige zones but normal grouping I would like to avoid required crowd controller.

    I have had issues where only one or two classes can fulfil a role causing groups wither and break up while waiting for that specific class.
    • 1635 posts
    July 21, 2019 6:13 PM PDT

    Like every other role, other classes do have abilities that can fill in for missing roles, just less effectively.  For example, there are classes that aren't healers that can heal, there are classes that aren't tanks that can stand in in a pinch, there are classes that can CC that aren't crowd control classes.

    Plus we don't know what the necromancer is going to be either, it may end up being a crowd control class, or at least be very capable of doing so.

    • 469 posts
    July 21, 2019 11:51 PM PDT

    Tahoe said: Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included. My concern is that the game only has two designated Crowd Control classes Enchanter and Bard that the desire or need for the classes may offset gameplay. I don’t mind this for raids or prestige zones but normal grouping I would like to avoid required crowd controller. I have had issues where only one or two classes can fulfil a role causing groups wither and break up while waiting for that specific class.

    If you've watched some of the streams they've noted that you can go without crowd control by being careful and utilizing other skills to avoid pulling trains. But CC will make life easier. Given the fact groups are 6 players again (thank the gods), you can bring along more classes to help in different ways if you don't bring dedicated crowd control classes.

    • 1331 posts
    July 22, 2019 8:05 PM PDT

    Tahoe said: Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included.

    Just fyi, that isn't a change.  The "holy trinity" originated in eq and was always tank, healer, cc.

    It is only later that games began to minimize the difficulty level and not require, or even barely offer, cc as an option that people started thinking that the trinity included dps.

    There was a post 4 or 5 years back from brad where he discussed the shift in what some people believe the holy trinity is and how Pantheon is going back to the original definition of the trinity.

     


    This post was edited by philo at July 22, 2019 8:06 PM PDT
    • 235 posts
    July 23, 2019 1:22 PM PDT

    philo said:

    Tahoe said: Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included.

    Just fyi, that isn't a change.  The "holy trinity" originated in eq and was always tank, healer, cc.

    It is only later that games began to minimize the difficulty level and not require, or even barely offer, cc as an option that people started thinking that the trinity included dps.

    There was a post 4 or 5 years back from brad where he discussed the shift in what some people believe the holy trinity is and how Pantheon is going back to the original definition of the trinity.

     

    I, for one, am very glad. DPS has devolved into an e-peen competition and a pseudo-measure of how 'good' you are. It will be nice to have a game that focuses on learning your class and how it meshes with the others.

    • 674 posts
    July 27, 2019 10:22 PM PDT

    As someone who pretty much exclusively played casters in EQ, anytime we were missing a CC specific role from our group I would bring enough CC to get by in the forms of roots, snares & pacify etc and of course if i was playing the necro we got a mez, fear and pet as well as the above mentioned..

     

    Pantheon looks like it will give us the same flexability within the caster roles and even a bit from some mele classes too.

     

    The flexability in the toolset of non CC specific casters (without actually making another CC class less desired because of it) was done beautifully in EQ I thought, any caster worth their weight could come up with a clever CC solution for most situations if they made sure to carry some utilities on their bar, unless your talking about a pull that only a AOE CC or a constant re application of single target mez on multiple mobs could deal with then you could be very successful with other non enchanter / bard CC's to get yourself out of a tricky pull or a few adds.

     

    I look forward to the hodge podge groups in Pantheon, defying the odds of making it through an encounter and making people say... "Who was locking down all those mobs!?!.... ooh, nice... i didnt realise a (insert class here) could do that" as you save everyones butts was always a nice lil pat on the back for being prepared to go outside the box and think fast and save a wipe / zone run

    • 695 posts
    August 4, 2019 1:50 PM PDT

    Having Tank/Healer/CC is ideal in a group, but not absolutely necessary.  You will see groups without a designated CC class often, and you will even see groups without one of the three tank classes as well.  

    Other games included CC, but just like in EQ (the originator of the "holy trinity" phrase) the role of CC was not as required as the role of DPS at end game.  It was more of a "very-nice-to-have" but if you didn't have designated DPS, CC didn't matter because your healers wouldn't be able to keep up the tanks long enough and the CC roles became more of a buff/support role (especially since a lot of end game content was nearly immune to CC).  With that said, PRotF is going for the "quadrinity" as opposed to the "trinity"... the one thing to keep in mind is that all roles can deal damage, so in order for DPS roles to matter, the amount of damage that will be required to kill NPCs will have to be high enough that DPS roles will be needed in groups as well as NPCs will need to be able to be CC'd at end game (unlike most other MMOs I've seen).

    • 18 posts
    August 8, 2019 7:58 PM PDT

    I for one will be EXTREMELY happy to see the default (read easiest setup group) be TANK / CC / HEALER + X DPS, where the game is designed around skillfully playing. Really want to see the CC "need" be prevelant through all levels and content.

    • 1712 posts
    August 15, 2019 2:38 PM PDT

    Enchanter does not represent the sole source of 'crowd control'.  Things such as snares, roots, walls, stuns, etc can, with an appropriate and creative application, could very well function as viable crowd control options.

    • 20 posts
    October 3, 2019 8:12 AM PDT

    Tahoe said: Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included. My concern is that the game only has two designated Crowd Control classes Enchanter and Bard that the desire or need for the classes may offset gameplay. I don’t mind this for raids or prestige zones but normal grouping I would like to avoid required crowd controller. I have had issues where only one or two classes can fulfil a role causing groups wither and break up while waiting for that specific class.

    I think thats when you have to get creative. Sometimes you just have to really work together and use some crowd contol that maybe isnt' the best option but you can make it work. Of course that will not work for major encounters, and it shouldn't. That isn't to say you can't do 70% of leveling and farming with a smaller less effective group that knows what they are doing, but when it comes to major encounters I think You need all the right pieces in order to be effective. 

    • 367 posts
    October 6, 2019 11:01 AM PDT

    "My concern is that the game only has two designated Crowd Control classes Enchanter and Bard that the desire or need for the classes may offset gameplay."

    Think of it as needing a Healer or Tank or needing DPS. While Healer and Tank are vital, Control/Support and DPS is and has been generally less so. In my groups in classic MMORPGs I've played, the Tank and Control/Support was typically the DPS. Even the Healer at times acted as DPS. That worked, but the role is vital, especially with VR's direction on combat dynamics, dispositions and true danger with transient and differential respawn. To want to do without it is really no different than asking why we need Healers and Tanks. As to the number, we only have three Healers or three Tanks to select from. The issue isn't so much about variety but about if there will be enough in-game. Polling through development and to include one conducted yesterday shows that we won't be short of Control/Support numbers, so I really don't see why it's an issue if it won't be difficult getting them for the group.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q06ZAC0Aqd7gAN3m4vXc7CkEIjU-F0N_gzQqVRfShMM/edit?usp=sharing

     

    • 14 posts
    October 25, 2019 5:53 AM PDT

    Janus said:

    "My concern is that the game only has two designated Crowd Control classes Enchanter and Bard that the desire or need for the classes may offset gameplay."

    Think of it as needing a Healer or Tank or needing DPS. While Healer and Tank are vital, Control/Support and DPS is and has been generally less so. In my groups in classic MMORPGs I've played, the Tank and Control/Support was typically the DPS. Even the Healer at times acted as DPS. That worked, but the role is vital, especially with VR's direction on combat dynamics, dispositions and true danger with transient and differential respawn. To want to do without it is really no different than asking why we need Healers and Tanks. As to the number, we only have three Healers or three Tanks to select from. The issue isn't so much about variety but about if there will be enough in-game. Polling through development and to include one conducted yesterday shows that we won't be short of Control/Support numbers, so I really don't see why it's an issue if it won't be difficult getting them for the group.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q06ZAC0Aqd7gAN3m4vXc7CkEIjU-F0N_gzQqVRfShMM/edit?usp=sharing

     

    I just felt a need to comment here because it's a concern I have too. Look, the devs have stated they want a quaternity of Tank, Healer, CC, DPS. There is only one class dedicated to CC as its main and none are dedicated to it as a secondary. Ah, roots and such are there! Roots suck in terms of crowd control- mobs can still cast/heal/etc while rooted and attack anyone close by so you need a lot of room to use them. Why is there only ONE class that has an effective way of controlling mobs and why can't there be, say a DPS/CC class?

    Summoner for example. Give the summoner some ability(ies) to summon a dummy/lure/etc. that has X hp and the mob will be forced to fight it until it dies or until someone else hits the mob. Maybe they can summon a maze that the mob gets trapped in for a time rendering it unable to attack or move towards the party for a short duration. There. Now you have a DPS class that has a secondary CC function. Necros had a temporary mez and long undead-only mez as well including undead charm in EQ. There's another example of how you can have a DPS class with some actually effective CC. But I feel that the devs NEED to plan either another CC class or a XXX/CC class specifically named as such so that people who want to play a crowd controller but not necessarily an enchanter have options available. Variety is the spice of life and if CC is intended to be part of this Quaternity, then you should dedicate more than 1 of your 12 classes to fill it. 3 tanks, 3 healers, 5 DPS and 1 CC? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense balance wise for this, and while I'm not saying it should be 3/3/3/3, 1CC seems too few out of 12 classes and 2 seems a bit off for 14 (assuming bards and necros even make it in for launch)

    I also worry that Clerics are the only class with an XP res. At higher levels that means you're going to "NEED" that cleric as opposed to a druid or shaman. You could easily give all 3 of them an XP res and have the cleric be the Healer/Support/CC healer, the Druid be the Healer/Support/Teleport healer and the Shaman be the Healer/Support/Damage healer. After all, why do XP reses have to be rare? To make the death penalty sting more? If you wanted that, why have an XP res at all then? I know I am probably in the minority here, but I really feel that having the cleric be effectively the only XP rezzer for so long was one of EQ's biggest mistakes.

     

    • 1635 posts
    October 25, 2019 1:28 PM PDT

    There is a DPS class with CC, the rogue has Smoke and Mirrors.

    • 14 posts
    October 26, 2019 12:09 AM PDT

    kelenin said:

    There is a DPS class with CC, the rogue has Smoke and Mirrors.

    Awesome. Then why is Crowd Control not in one of the flags of the class? Crowd Control is one of the tags they use. It's only used for the Enchanter at the moment. It may seem like a petty criticism, but if I know nothing about these classes and I'm looking for something that specifically has crowd control at a glance, how am I supposed to know that? I'd have to look at a huge list of potential skills and figure out what CC abilities it has. And then, if it only has 1 and exactly 1 ability for crowd control, is it really sufficient to fill that role? (I honestly don't know that answer. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.) I know the game is early and things are constantly being updated and that, but it would be nice for the devs to put the CC tag on some classes and let us know they plan on giving those classes at least a somewhat functional CC suite as opposed to just 1 ability that can help out... does that make sense? 

    My main concern is, as far as I can tell, Enchanter is the only class that has a CC suite that can allow it to totally fill that role. Some classes have an ability to do something in a pinch, but if I want to do CC, I have to play an Enchanter. I'm saying there should be some more variety in there even if I have to sacrifice some of my desire to CC to do something else with some CC ability splashed into my kit. But I'm not sure if 1 ability is enough to cut the proverbial mustard on that.

    It also makes it very clear to people that choose to play rogue that the rouge IS intended to help or even fulfill the role of CC in a group should the group need that ability rather than DPS (which is, admittedly, probably never as killing something is the ultimate form of CC but hey maybe you really need to mez/stop that mob from attacking because the healer doesn't have the MP to keep you alive long enough to kill it and you have that one rogue that's like "Nah bruh, I R DPS. Skr00 dis CC crap.")