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Requiring Crowd Control

    • 58 posts
    July 21, 2019 6:08 PM PDT
    Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included.

    My concern is that the game only has two designated Crowd Control classes Enchanter and Bard that the desire or need for the classes may offset gameplay.

    I don’t mind this for raids or prestige zones but normal grouping I would like to avoid required crowd controller.

    I have had issues where only one or two classes can fulfil a role causing groups wither and break up while waiting for that specific class.
    • 1590 posts
    July 21, 2019 6:13 PM PDT

    Like every other role, other classes do have abilities that can fill in for missing roles, just less effectively.  For example, there are classes that aren't healers that can heal, there are classes that aren't tanks that can stand in in a pinch, there are classes that can CC that aren't crowd control classes.

    Plus we don't know what the necromancer is going to be either, it may end up being a crowd control class, or at least be very capable of doing so.

    • 451 posts
    July 21, 2019 11:51 PM PDT

    Tahoe said: Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included. My concern is that the game only has two designated Crowd Control classes Enchanter and Bard that the desire or need for the classes may offset gameplay. I don’t mind this for raids or prestige zones but normal grouping I would like to avoid required crowd controller. I have had issues where only one or two classes can fulfil a role causing groups wither and break up while waiting for that specific class.

    If you've watched some of the streams they've noted that you can go without crowd control by being careful and utilizing other skills to avoid pulling trains. But CC will make life easier. Given the fact groups are 6 players again (thank the gods), you can bring along more classes to help in different ways if you don't bring dedicated crowd control classes.

    • 1228 posts
    July 22, 2019 8:05 PM PDT

    Tahoe said: Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included.

    Just fyi, that isn't a change.  The "holy trinity" originated in eq and was always tank, healer, cc.

    It is only later that games began to minimize the difficulty level and not require, or even barely offer, cc as an option that people started thinking that the trinity included dps.

    There was a post 4 or 5 years back from brad where he discussed the shift in what some people believe the holy trinity is and how Pantheon is going back to the original definition of the trinity.

     


    This post was edited by philo at July 22, 2019 8:06 PM PDT
    • 219 posts
    July 23, 2019 1:22 PM PDT

    philo said:

    Tahoe said: Looking over some of the content found that instead is the normal trinity of heals/tank/DPS there is proposed a change of Crowd Control being included.

    Just fyi, that isn't a change.  The "holy trinity" originated in eq and was always tank, healer, cc.

    It is only later that games began to minimize the difficulty level and not require, or even barely offer, cc as an option that people started thinking that the trinity included dps.

    There was a post 4 or 5 years back from brad where he discussed the shift in what some people believe the holy trinity is and how Pantheon is going back to the original definition of the trinity.

     

    I, for one, am very glad. DPS has devolved into an e-peen competition and a pseudo-measure of how 'good' you are. It will be nice to have a game that focuses on learning your class and how it meshes with the others.

    • 658 posts
    July 27, 2019 10:22 PM PDT

    As someone who pretty much exclusively played casters in EQ, anytime we were missing a CC specific role from our group I would bring enough CC to get by in the forms of roots, snares & pacify etc and of course if i was playing the necro we got a mez, fear and pet as well as the above mentioned..

     

    Pantheon looks like it will give us the same flexability within the caster roles and even a bit from some mele classes too.

     

    The flexability in the toolset of non CC specific casters (without actually making another CC class less desired because of it) was done beautifully in EQ I thought, any caster worth their weight could come up with a clever CC solution for most situations if they made sure to carry some utilities on their bar, unless your talking about a pull that only a AOE CC or a constant re application of single target mez on multiple mobs could deal with then you could be very successful with other non enchanter / bard CC's to get yourself out of a tricky pull or a few adds.

     

    I look forward to the hodge podge groups in Pantheon, defying the odds of making it through an encounter and making people say... "Who was locking down all those mobs!?!.... ooh, nice... i didnt realise a (insert class here) could do that" as you save everyones butts was always a nice lil pat on the back for being prepared to go outside the box and think fast and save a wipe / zone run

    • 596 posts
    August 4, 2019 1:50 PM PDT

    Having Tank/Healer/CC is ideal in a group, but not absolutely necessary.  You will see groups without a designated CC class often, and you will even see groups without one of the three tank classes as well.  

    Other games included CC, but just like in EQ (the originator of the "holy trinity" phrase) the role of CC was not as required as the role of DPS at end game.  It was more of a "very-nice-to-have" but if you didn't have designated DPS, CC didn't matter because your healers wouldn't be able to keep up the tanks long enough and the CC roles became more of a buff/support role (especially since a lot of end game content was nearly immune to CC).  With that said, PRotF is going for the "quadrinity" as opposed to the "trinity"... the one thing to keep in mind is that all roles can deal damage, so in order for DPS roles to matter, the amount of damage that will be required to kill NPCs will have to be high enough that DPS roles will be needed in groups as well as NPCs will need to be able to be CC'd at end game (unlike most other MMOs I've seen).

    • 9 posts
    August 8, 2019 7:58 PM PDT

    I for one will be EXTREMELY happy to see the default (read easiest setup group) be TANK / CC / HEALER + X DPS, where the game is designed around skillfully playing. Really want to see the CC "need" be prevelant through all levels and content.

    • 1513 posts
    August 15, 2019 2:38 PM PDT

    Enchanter does not represent the sole source of 'crowd control'.  Things such as snares, roots, walls, stuns, etc can, with an appropriate and creative application, could very well function as viable crowd control options.