Forums » Off-Topic and Casual Chatter

A look into the future. Grave Concern

    • 1428 posts
    July 16, 2019 6:34 PM PDT

    fancy said:

    There are plenty of other games out there that allow gold sellers. Pantheon does not need to be one of them simply for the possibility/assumption that they are trying to feed their families. Honestly, not many people know what's happening on the other end. You could be helping fund a very bad activity. You'll really never know...

    Also stellar, you kind of pull numbers out of your a$$. a video card to play on VR doesn't cost $1k. And a decent VR set doesn't cost $2k. You could definitely spend that much, but you could also spend $10k on a computer. That's not really the point. Sure people have money to spend and invest. And they choose to invest in a game and a company they believe in based off promises, prototypes/demos, etc. When someone goes back on that promise, even in the slightest, trust is lost. And then when they start changing more and more and they start to make their own rules along the way... it's fraudulent. You can't just change your mind when you've already sold investors and backers an idea. The only reason you got their money was because of the first idea. Sure, some people might be okay with the changes, and sure some people might even be inclined to support it. You can almost guarantee some are also wanting to back out and should have every right to do so. It's no longer the game/idea they chose to invest in the first place.

    However, legalities come into play with wording of ToS and other crap. Which only helps them stay fraudulent, but this world is mostly just capitalism at this point, so you can't expect for there to be any Justice served until it's received enough attention.

    i gotta be sensational XD

    let me clarify a bit.

    gofundme and patreon have rules for agreement.  a company wanting x amount of money and we deliever this product.  it's very very strict and down to the letter.  what happened was after star citizen hit way over their first target goal, i think it was just a couple of million like 8? i don't remember exactly,  but they delievered a concept per patreon agreement.

    after said and done, they start their own website DIRECTLY contributing donations to the company.

     

    we could even draw a comparsion to vr studios too.

    they started on patreon too and at some point started their own pledge system.

    that's why other forums like on wow or ff are saying that portf is just another scam.

     

    anyways, i agree with what you are saying, but cloud imperium has no legal binds after patreon separation to uphold anything via direct donation.

    • 245 posts
    July 17, 2019 12:06 AM PDT

    fancy said:

    People who dedicated their lives to mobile games found PC... They wanted a game to dump their cash into and they found some.

    It's like an artist that creates a one hit wonder and then you never see them again. They create this catchy song, everyone digs it for a short time, but there's no REALLLL talent (like writing their own songs) behind it - especially no drive to do more or better. They could make more money in the long run, but why do that? Less effort and time invested in a one hit wonder, no stress when things don't go your way, and more money generated. 

    People started valuing talks of ideas rather than actual proof in games. In some cases this can work. Pantheon wouldn't be where it is today if people didn't believe the words VR was saying like; we are working on the graphics, we plan to do this, we want this game to be this, etc. I didn't believe right away, but some people did. And if they hadn't, we might not be this much closer to a release.

    But then you have games like Star Citizen. I mean, sure it's playable... but what they are doing to those poor people is borderline illegal. They make all these promises from the start and people buy into these promises and ideas. Then they change their TOS (which in legal terms they can do), and that screws over the people who initially believed in them. Gotta love the legalities of things where you can invest thousands of dollars in a game and then they can just change a few words so they can keep your funds but completely change their scope of work as well as not guaranteeing a fully released playable game that they originally sold to you in the first place.

    Forbes: Exclusive: The Saga Of 'Star Citizen,' A Video Game That Raised $300 Million—But May Never Be Ready To Play

    This actually pisses me off and I didn't even back the game... Imagine all those other smaller games with small teams that had so much potential but couldn't be what it was meant to be because of funding. People allowed him to do this though. He literally invested TONS of his fans/backers money into Squadron 42 to generate even more money on a game that doesn't have a release date. 

    adljfal;dkjfaldjf -End Rant-

     

    That Forbes article is full of lies and inaccuracies.

    Everyone that has backed Star Citizen knows that it includes Squadron 42, that they are backing the crowdfunded development of a single player space simulation and a massively multiplayer space simulation being built in parallel in the same game universe.

    The Forbes article is a sorry excuse for 'journalism' if they wrote about Pantheon they would probably spend half the article bashing Brad for Vanguard mistakes.

    • 245 posts
    July 17, 2019 12:10 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    fancy said:

     

    adljfal;dkjfaldjf -End Rant-

    star citizen isn't even close to being playable, they don't even have a working concept.  it isn't illegal.  you donated money in good faith, kind of like how people give money to a bum out of the goodness of their hearts.  then i'll sit there and watch that same bum run to a local booze market to get liquored up or see them on the side streets to get a hit.

    most people that have a big interest in space sims have quite a bit of money.  a decent hotas is minimum $150 and they can go up to thousands of dollars.  on top of that i'd want a vr headset in hd quality that's another $2k.  you'd need a serious video card costing another $1k.  there isn't anything wrong.  it's targeting the gamers that have serious money: astronomers, technological engineers, etc...

     

     

    This is pure ignorance, which is what I've come to expect from your posting. But, it's still pure ignorance.

     

    The Star Citizen project is for both a massive MMO and massive single player campaign game being built in parallel with unprecedented levels of fidelity and have had more open communication and community engagement than any game in history throughout their development.

    There are hundreds of development videos showcasing:

    • What has been done
    • What is being done
    • What will be done
    • How things are done
    • How things are fixed
    • What's causing issues currently
    • What needs to be overcome to move a certain feature forward.

    There are multiple monthly newsletters showcasing details, monthly lore newsletters and videos building the world, videos showcasing the development of a new language just for NPCs in the game.

    It has had an ever evolving alpha client with a multiplayer system, multiple planets, moons and stations for the past several years which sees updates every 3 months and any backer can log in to and play at any time they like, no downtime.

    • There's a single player AI arena
    • Multiplayer FPS
    • And a racing sim

    There are roadmaps on the website which see weekly updates to show current progress on different tasks, the roadmaps are based upon quarterly features and projected for several quarters in advance for both the multiplayer and single player game.

    Development is slow-paced, and the scale of development is absolutely massive to match it. The features being developed are in many cases groundbreaking and completely unique with levels of fidelity that put dedicated FPS games with tiny maps to shame.

     

    Pantheon by comparison has a few videos from about 12 streams for the past 3 years and a monthly newsletter which doesn't give much information each time.

     

    They are very diffierent games with very different scales of scope and teams to match.

    However, they have both grown from nothing and both faced development setbacks over the years, they are both being built by people that care and people that don't want to rush a game and want to do their game absolute justice.


    This post was edited by Ezrael at July 17, 2019 3:08 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    July 17, 2019 8:51 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    stellarmind said:

    fancy said:

     

    adljfal;dkjfaldjf -End Rant-

    star citizen isn't even close to being playable, they don't even have a working concept.  it isn't illegal.  you donated money in good faith, kind of like how people give money to a bum out of the goodness of their hearts.  then i'll sit there and watch that same bum run to a local booze market to get liquored up or see them on the side streets to get a hit.

    most people that have a big interest in space sims have quite a bit of money.  a decent hotas is minimum $150 and they can go up to thousands of dollars.  on top of that i'd want a vr headset in hd quality that's another $2k.  you'd need a serious video card costing another $1k.  there isn't anything wrong.  it's targeting the gamers that have serious money: astronomers, technological engineers, etc...

     

     

    This is pure ignorance, which is what I've come to expect from your posting. But, it's still pure ignorance.

     

    The Star Citizen project is for both a massive MMO and massive single player campaign game being built in parallel with unprecedented levels of fidelity and have had more open communication and community engagement than any game in history throughout their development.

    There are hundreds of development videos showcasing:

    • What has been done
    • What is being done
    • What will be done
    • How things are done
    • How things are fixed
    • What's causing issues currently
    • What needs to be overcome to move a certain feature forward.

    There are multiple monthly newsletters showcasing details, monthly lore newsletters and videos building the world, videos showcasing the development of a new language just for NPCs in the game.

    It has had an ever evolving alpha client with a multiplayer system, multiple planets, moons and stations for the past several years which sees updates every 3 months and any backer can log in to and play at any time they like, no downtime.

    • There's a single player AI arena
    • Multiplayer FPS
    • And a racing sim

    There are roadmaps on the website which see weekly updates to show current progress on different tasks, the roadmaps are based upon quarterly features and projected for several quarters in advance for both the multiplayer and single player game.

    Development is slow-paced, and the scale of development is absolutely massive to match it. The features being developed are in many cases groundbreaking and completely unique with levels of fidelity that put dedicated FPS games with tiny maps to shame.

     

    Pantheon by comparison has a few videos from about 12 streams for the past 3 years and a monthly newsletter which doesn't give much information each time.

     

    They are very diffierent games with very different scales of scope and teams to match.

    However, they have both grown from nothing and both faced development setbacks over the years, they are both being built by people that care and people that don't want to rush a game and want to do their game absolute justice.

     

     

    care to enlighten instead of slinging insults?  i'm invested in space sims.  i'm currently playing elite dangerous casually exploring a place way out the hub called the void.  to give some context been playing for 6 years.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz-brDXSQok

    you call this a working concept?  i've watch alot of gameplay videos like this where people die for no apparent reason, falling through planet surfaces, network loads blowing up, etc. etc.

    i can understand optimization issues.  i've been following the game since 2011 and paid money on patreon, but i didn't touch their donation system.

    can you even blame me for being salty?  the game was suppose to be out already.  they are in still in alpha after 3 years.

     

    look what im saying is, i can add a whole bunch of features in, but if it doesn't work properly of course im going to be slinging some hate if your base game is glitched into oblivion.

    fix the core issues then work on the features.

    that's the same if i told you hey check out this new shiny ferrari.  the engine backfires from time to time and the transmission randomly locks up, but we added some nice 24kt cup holders.

     

    • 844 posts
    July 17, 2019 3:34 PM PDT

    back in 95, I started as one of the only first alpha players in UO and walked a world empty of items, players and houses.

    As that game progressed through beta and eventually went live, an IRL friend started playing. He was very much into the market aspect and started to sell in-game resources online.

    This would have been circa 97. I jumped early to the EQ beta in 98 never going back to the hot mess that was UO, but my IRL friend kept his toons farming and selling for years and made thousands of $$ of supplemental income.

    The point being, the selling of pixels has always been and always will be a thing for some people. Just as the buying of pixels will always be a thing, for some people.

    • 844 posts
    July 17, 2019 3:37 PM PDT

    VicNuggets said:

    They are called whales. People with money and willing to part with it easily. In my opinion I think it's best to find a way to give them something to spend their money on while not allowing it to affect the game. Which isn't an easy task. 

    They are called a lot more than just whales. We had classifications of them at my studio.

    We had Narwhales, Blue whales, etc. They paid my salary for a few years.

    With small FTP games and small indy studio's, whales make the difference between financial viability and not existing.

    Over a period of about 3+ years, our largest whale spent almost $500,000.

    • Moderator
    • 9115 posts
    July 17, 2019 3:55 PM PDT

    Moved to Off-Topic - We have had an off-topic subforum since the forum was created ;)

    Please keep it civil, there is no need for personal attacks or speaking to others rudely, no matter how much your opinions differ.

    Respect your fellow community members, please.

    • 245 posts
    July 17, 2019 5:27 PM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    Ezrael said:

    stellarmind said:

    fancy said:

     

    adljfal;dkjfaldjf -End Rant-

    star citizen isn't even close to being playable, they don't even have a working concept.  it isn't illegal.  you donated money in good faith, kind of like how people give money to a bum out of the goodness of their hearts.  then i'll sit there and watch that same bum run to a local booze market to get liquored up or see them on the side streets to get a hit.

    most people that have a big interest in space sims have quite a bit of money.  a decent hotas is minimum $150 and they can go up to thousands of dollars.  on top of that i'd want a vr headset in hd quality that's another $2k.  you'd need a serious video card costing another $1k.  there isn't anything wrong.  it's targeting the gamers that have serious money: astronomers, technological engineers, etc...

     

     

    This is pure ignorance, which is what I've come to expect from your posting. But, it's still pure ignorance.

     

    The Star Citizen project is for both a massive MMO and massive single player campaign game being built in parallel with unprecedented levels of fidelity and have had more open communication and community engagement than any game in history throughout their development.

    There are hundreds of development videos showcasing:

    • What has been done
    • What is being done
    • What will be done
    • How things are done
    • How things are fixed
    • What's causing issues currently
    • What needs to be overcome to move a certain feature forward.

    There are multiple monthly newsletters showcasing details, monthly lore newsletters and videos building the world, videos showcasing the development of a new language just for NPCs in the game.

    It has had an ever evolving alpha client with a multiplayer system, multiple planets, moons and stations for the past several years which sees updates every 3 months and any backer can log in to and play at any time they like, no downtime.

    • There's a single player AI arena
    • Multiplayer FPS
    • And a racing sim

    There are roadmaps on the website which see weekly updates to show current progress on different tasks, the roadmaps are based upon quarterly features and projected for several quarters in advance for both the multiplayer and single player game.

    Development is slow-paced, and the scale of development is absolutely massive to match it. The features being developed are in many cases groundbreaking and completely unique with levels of fidelity that put dedicated FPS games with tiny maps to shame.

     

    Pantheon by comparison has a few videos from about 12 streams for the past 3 years and a monthly newsletter which doesn't give much information each time.

     

    They are very diffierent games with very different scales of scope and teams to match.

    However, they have both grown from nothing and both faced development setbacks over the years, they are both being built by people that care and people that don't want to rush a game and want to do their game absolute justice.

     

     

    care to enlighten instead of slinging insults?  i'm invested in space sims.  i'm currently playing elite dangerous casually exploring a place way out the hub called the void.  to give some context been playing for 6 years.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz-brDXSQok

    you call this a working concept?  i've watch alot of gameplay videos like this where people die for no apparent reason, falling through planet surfaces, network loads blowing up, etc. etc.

    i can understand optimization issues.  i've been following the game since 2011 and paid money on patreon, but i didn't touch their donation system.

    can you even blame me for being salty?  the game was suppose to be out already.  they are in still in alpha after 3 years.

     

    look what im saying is, i can add a whole bunch of features in, but if it doesn't work properly of course im going to be slinging some hate if your base game is glitched into oblivion.

    fix the core issues then work on the features.

    that's the same if i told you hey check out this new shiny ferrari.  the engine backfires from time to time and the transmission randomly locks up, but we added some nice 24kt cup holders.

     

     

    No insult, just objective evidence based feedback.

    Your posts are either uninformed (ignorant) or immature, full of off-topic memes or that absolute rubbish where you posted the 'Pantheon lore' written like an 8 year old boy.

    You've linked a video with old footage touted as '2019' from an immature Latvian YouTube troll who's heavily invested in Elite Dangerous and completely biased towards it, no surprises there for the kind of content you'd follow.

    That's like linking the Asmongold review of Pantheon from him watching some stream footage.

     

    This is Star Citizen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaMF6ujw3Rk

    If you can grow up and do some of your own research, understand what game development that pushes the limits really means then you will come to understand what is going on to develop Star Citizen and Squadron 42 and you'll see how ignorant and simple-minded all of the naysayers are.


    This post was edited by Ezrael at July 17, 2019 5:37 PM PDT
    • 945 posts
    July 19, 2019 10:56 AM PDT

    There will always be cash transactions - there are entire (successful) companies that dance around EULA and TOS.  Something to do with disclaiming that the sale of an account or item are not involved with intellectual property and only the player's time invested in the use of the account or accquisition of the item, and the account or item is being freely given away as a gift (which every game promotes recruiting a friend with a free account).  I wouldn't be surprised if some of the current Pre-Alpha players work for some of these companies (especially since some packages cost several thousand $).

    • 844 posts
    July 20, 2019 6:40 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    There will always be cash transactions - there are entire (successful) companies that dance around EULA and TOS.  Something to do with disclaiming that the sale of an account or item are not involved with intellectual property and only the player's time invested in the use of the account or accquisition of the item, and the account or item is being freely given away as a gift (which every game promotes recruiting a friend with a free account).  I wouldn't be surprised if some of the current Pre-Alpha players work for some of these companies (especially since some packages cost several thousand $).

    Just because something is in a EULA does not make it legal.

    Plenty of contracts try and claim things that legally can not be justified and will not hold up in court.

    Intuitively most would agree that your account is yours to do with as you please. No matter what any company tries to claim. And I do not know of any game company that would actually try and pursue a legal block to what they know is a losing case. They just go over the top in their agreements to try and claim everything under the sun as a mechanic to scare the vast majority of users. And it works.