Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

I hate QoL Features

    • 949 posts
    July 16, 2019 8:25 AM PDT

    @dorotea

    I was working on a multi-player crafting system idea over on Pantheoncrafters.com.  It would not require you to group to craft except on special recipes otherwise it could just be a benefit. 

    The jist of it is as follows:

    1)      Crafters have crafting energy (maybe of multiple types)

    2)      Each stage of the crafty process requires an action to be selected and those actions take energy at different efficiencies and final product impacts.

    3)      Crafters gain crafting energy pool through items and crafting levels

    4)      There are many different crafting actions and not all classes have access to the “best” response actions to their craft.

    5)      Item level dictates the total amount of energy required to make the item

    6)      Items have progression points that must be reached or the item is ruined/doesn’t change.

    7)      The skill of the lead crafter dictates a multiplier on the total energy cost to create.

    8)      Energy regenerates when not crafting or regenerates faster with deliberate actions.

    9)      Players can join together to pool their energy and skills in order to make an item that would be otherwise outside of their skill.

    10)   Masters could work with apprentices to make better items than they would be able to solo.

    11)   Some truly mythic items will require some truly huge group work to complete.  Creating an artifact level item might require some raid boss drops, a special crafting station and a grand master crafter from each crafting class in order to have all the skills for a perfect crafting.

    P.S. all threads are potential crafting threads


    This post was edited by Trasak at July 16, 2019 8:28 AM PDT
    • 1181 posts
    July 16, 2019 9:30 AM PDT

    dorotea said some good stuff: ... vjek I took the liberty of trying to rephrase your points in a slightly different way to facilitate agreement and collegiality (chuckles) - if I got any of them wrong you are more than welcome to correct me. ...

    All good, and a fine further explanation.

    • 1418 posts
    July 16, 2019 9:52 AM PDT

    I confess that I've not really been paying attention to this thread recently but I wanted to say that I generally agree with dorotea and vjek here.

    I also think it's important that we keep context in mind when talking about interdependence in crafting.

    I am absolutely fine with requiring a small level of interdependence for crafters making individual items.  One should not need all of the crafting professions just to create a sword or suit of armor, but needing components from a few of them is entirely reasonable.

    However, larger projects, such as building a wagon or a ship, a house or a castle, should come with appropriately higher levels of interdependence.  The largest projects may even have a requirement that work be performed in parallel by multiple crafters, rather than individually and asynchronously.

     

    For basic equipment and consumable crafting however, we should insure that interdependence does not prevent players from being able to craft when they have time to do so, assuming that they have planned ahead appropriately.


    This post was edited by Nephele at July 16, 2019 9:53 AM PDT
    • 2510 posts
    July 16, 2019 10:33 AM PDT

    Nephele I agree - good examples being (as you perhaps had in mind) ships and houses and guild houses in Vanguard.

    Trasak I also agree. To this day I remember group harvesting as one of the good features of Vanguard. Group crafting could be a huge plus as long as it is limited as you suggest and doesn't require a group to do any useful crafting as Pantheon seems likely to require a group to do any but the most trivial adventuring.

    • 1283 posts
    July 16, 2019 12:00 PM PDT

    I'm fine with most of the items you can create within blacksmithing being done with just blacksmithing, I've never had a problem with this, but I think that if you still are able to master all tradeskills within an account than in the tradeskilling world of crafters nothing has really changed, they will still master all crafts eventually, and most probably wouldn't even talk in trade chat anymore cept to sell high end products or buy a  particular material they don't feel like farming.  But that would be it, they almost disappear once they get there, it's happened so many times, and that a problem, the crafters should always have to rely on the gathers and crafters alike to make high end products and not be completely self efficent.

    Now the system up above sounds interesting and I do like what it brings to the table, but I believe a combination of both would be a great system, as it one would make multi-boxing very hard so making multiple account to master all tradeskills have a little less meaning when it comes to be self efficent if you can't preform the actions good enough to a me the particular item at its best.

    • 828 posts
    July 16, 2019 2:48 PM PDT

    Just imagine if you played Chess and all you ever had control of was the Queen.  

    To me, this is what many QoL features do.  They are gearing towards and are changing the core of games to take away every part of "Playing" the game except the most fun part.  But if you were to play chess and the only piece you controlled was the Queen, would it be fun?  

    Again, IMHO, (almost all) QoL features move every piece of your chess board for you except the Queen, and it's not fun because none of the game is me or my strategy anymore, it's all done with what the AI says is best.


    This post was edited by Kittik at July 16, 2019 7:12 PM PDT
    • 37 posts
    July 19, 2019 6:56 AM PDT

    I agree with Kittik, however, one feature I would really like to see is a comparison window between an item you're inspecting and what you currently have equipt. Trying to flick from one item to another remembering every stat difference to ascertain which one is better was a real pain in the rear end!

    And yes, I also agree that the AI automation trend is really draining the life / fun out of everything!

    • 1260 posts
    July 19, 2019 7:07 AM PDT

    @Kittik

    I agree - that’s precisely the problem. Good example.

    • 136 posts
    July 19, 2019 7:40 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Nephele I agree - good examples being (as you perhaps had in mind) ships and houses and guild houses in Vanguard.

    Trasak I also agree. To this day I remember group harvesting as one of the good features of Vanguard. Group crafting could be a huge plus as long as it is limited as you suggest and doesn't require a group to do any useful crafting as Pantheon seems likely to require a group to do any but the most trivial adventuring.

    Vanguard to me had the ultimate crafting/harvesting system. The way it was set up was nothing short of perfect in my eyes. You could only have one profession, as most crafters and professionals in a real world are. You don't see many woodworkers taking up tailoring and making clothes, they hone their skill their entire life. Sure they can learn to weld and do a few other things that other professions require just to make their profession more efficient, but for the most part It's a labor of love that people don't deviate from. I liked the fact in Vanguard that I had to be friends with other crafters. If not that at least I had to roll another character and craft something that I needed with them to produce high end items to sell.

    As a smither I needed a cloth tailor to produce the bales needed to weave into my armor. I could have bought them on the market, but knowing people and interacting with them got me better deals. The items I was producing was on par or better than what people had for their level so it kept my crafter busy by making more things. Towards the end there was pantheon armor. This armor required a ton of faction grinding and a raid or two, but it also required a crafter and lots of desirable harvested materials. This was such a beautiful implementation of crafting/harvesting and most importantly it was great for the community because other people were buying the items or selling items needed, so it made everyone useful. Crafters were useful in almsot every aspect of Vanguard from start to the end.

    The unfortunate part is anything less than Vanguards system will be a let down to me. I have never been hooked to a crafting profession, by the end of that games day's I had 3 max level crafters and probably would have made more if the game didn't shut down. I also spent an unimaginable amount of hours grinding out harvesting materials. I just can't stress what a beautiful marriage Vanguard had with its system and it's up to them to bring something similar or better to the table. Hopefully better because you want developers to reach for more all the time, but even something similar would make me a happy guy.

     


    This post was edited by Moloka at July 19, 2019 7:45 AM PDT
    • 235 posts
    July 19, 2019 8:07 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    Just imagine if you played Chess and all you ever had control of was the Queen.  

    To me, this is what many QoL features do.  They are gearing towards and are changing the core of games to take away every part of "Playing" the game except the most fun part.  But if you were to play chess and the only piece you controlled was the Queen, would it be fun?  

    Again, IMHO, (almost all) QoL features move every piece of your chess board for you except the Queen, and it's not fun because none of the game is me or my strategy anymore, it's all done with what the AI says is best.

    To me, it's just the opposite. The right QoL features make the game better. Using your example, QoL things also give you access to a rook, bishop and knight. They allow for alterate ways of doing and managing things instead of just having the queen option.

    • 59 posts
    July 19, 2019 8:11 AM PDT

      You all have got to stop writing books. Start practicing the acronmy k.i.s.s.. These forums have turned into your typical social media junk. People wanting to write books arguing their opinion(s) and attacking any person that doesn't agree. I normally see a post & click on it. Scroll down to see how long it is if needed and if to long I ignore it all together. I'm not going down that path of misery.  Learn how to compromise while maintaining checks and balances. Do that and everything will be just peachy.

    • 2510 posts
    July 19, 2019 8:24 AM PDT

    Moloka - I totally agree. Couldn't have said it better and maybe not as well.

    Vander - sorry if three or four paragraphs seems like a book to you. Some issues are complex and not readily addressed in a few sentances. And while some threads do turn into post after post of people attacking each other and defending themselves rather than discussing the issues - that is the exception not the rule on these forums and certainly not the case here.