Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord HP Pool

    • 2476 posts
    September 18, 2019 3:18 PM PDT

    Not shining the brightest (implying the others still shine, just not as bright) doesn't mean the other two are suddenly useless. They've also already mentioned in the past the desire to design raid fights in a way that each tank class has room to shine for different parts or mechanics. 

     

    Talk about doom and gloom absurdity. And I fully expect that will be the case for healers and DPS, some fights cleric will shine brightest with their shields and direct healing where a shaman will have to work extra hard to keep up using their HoTs and weaker direct healing. Some fights see melee DPS struggle in parts due to damage shields or AoEs but that doesn't make them "useless/not needed" either. 

    • 130 posts
    September 18, 2019 10:34 PM PDT
    Well we have no clue really.. you know they could make a raid that simply bleeds Mana.. say a boss that has medium physical damage but has a proc or aoe that hits every one in raid for a fair amount of damage to all .. this would mean a dl tanking would be best with the higher Regen and life taps to reduce the cost on the healers and if the boss has a ton of hpso it would be a long fight and boss may heal to making the fight last longer.. making clerics Mana pool drain putting a need for hot heals from shamy and dps heals from the druids.. so I'm less worried on boss raids they can work that easy to make do have a role there.. my concern is groups if we can't be healed for regular cl groups because of spikes in go it would suck I hope we have a little more hp to help there and not a lot more 10% more could do it.
    • 35 posts
    September 19, 2019 10:53 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Not shining the brightest (implying the others still shine, just not as bright) doesn't mean the other two are suddenly useless. They've also already mentioned in the past the desire to design raid fights in a way that each tank class has room to shine for different parts or mechanics. 

     

    Talk about doom and gloom absurdity. And I fully expect that will be the case for healers and DPS, some fights cleric will shine brightest with their shields and direct healing where a shaman will have to work extra hard to keep up using their HoTs and weaker direct healing. Some fights see melee DPS struggle in parts due to damage shields or AoEs but that doesn't make them "useless/not needed" either. 

     

    and this gets back to my "human nature" comment

     

    why bring those classes to those fights if they have to "work extra hard" to keep up?

     

    there is nothing absurd with understanding how players react to game situations, it is reality, to ignore it is ignorance

     

    and maybe just for raid mechanics this could work-3 big fights 3 different classes to tank/dps/heal them but that just makes it content by class, not by player skill, which isn't really a challenge or fun.  "oh hey I am a druid, this is the fight where my DSs are pretty much useless, I'll be AFk the next 10 minutes, SO MUCH FUN!!!!".

     

    then think about grouping situations, areas where mobs are mostly physial damage=war tank, undead=pally tank and magic=DL once players know this that is what they will go for, the other classes will be shunned/not wanted and elitism will rule the day yet again, or they have to make the content varies in such a way that you fight all three-good right?  well until that variance is 8 physical mobs in a row on a DL and he dies because no matter his player skill his class didn't just match up right, again not challenging, not fun.

     

    having played SWTOR where they had 3 classes per role, they did quite a good job (at least while I played it) at having all three classes shine just fine as long as the player had the gear and skill for the content

     

    I'd much rather want to have Player X with skill than need Player Y with less skill for their class because elitism ALWAYS rules in these games and steering the Pantheon Boat that way is a huge mistake in my 20+ years of MMO experience

     

    I don't EVER want my CLASS to shine the brightest, I want my SKILL to shine brightest

     

    back when I played FF11 there were what was called JP ONLY groups, basically they were japanese players that only grouped with other japanese players because those japanese players thought the NAs (north americans) didn't have the skill they had-which was actually pretty true from what I saw as a healer.

     

    anyway, one day they must have really needed a healer because I got invited to a JP ONLY party and after 2+ hours with the group with constant pulls no deaths and a great experience they all added me as a friend and I ended up grouping and raiding with them on quite a few occasions.

     

    they appreciated my player skill, not my class and if my class "didn't shine as bright" as a different class (in ff11 there was pretty much only 1 healer anyway) I may have never gotten that invite and showed them how much skill I had in the first place.

     

    elitism, the want to beat content easier, the want to not risk dying, the want to WIN in these games at all costs will always rule in these games

     

    human nature


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at September 19, 2019 10:58 AM PDT
    • 1653 posts
    September 19, 2019 12:10 PM PDT

    The answer joins what have been talked about since the direlord reveal : the viability of each tank is solely tied to how formulas will work and how ennemies will be designed.

     

    We've seen in streams that magic damage is often represented, either by random mobs (black rose wizards) or as bu more systemic ennemies (halnir's ghosts). However these remain semi random encounters that will not justify a group rearengement (except if ghosts all go for magic damage and are far easier for a Direlord tank than any other, or paladin even).

     

    The whole question is more relevant to specific encounters where you chose and design your group around, which haven't been seen yet.

     

    Another question is the relevance of magic mitigation in an environment where interrupts seems quite common. You don't need magical mitigation if your oponent can't cast spells.

    • 2476 posts
    September 19, 2019 2:07 PM PDT

    TheBus88 said:

    and this gets back to my "human nature" comment

    ...

    then think about grouping situations, areas where mobs are mostly physial damage=war tank, undead=pally tank and magic=DL once players know this that is what they will go for, the other classes will be shunned/not wanted and elitism will rule the day yet again, or they have to make the content varies in such a way that you fight all three-good right?  well until that variance is 8 physical mobs in a row on a DL and he dies because no matter his player skill his class didn't just match up right, again not challenging, not fun.

     

    having played SWTOR where they had 3 classes per role, they did quite a good job (at least while I played it) at having all three classes shine just fine as long as the player had the gear and skill for the content

     

    I'd much rather want to have Player X with skill than need Player Y with less skill for their class because elitism ALWAYS rules in these games and steering the Pantheon Boat that way is a huge mistake in my 20+ years of MMO experience

     

    I don't EVER want my CLASS to shine the brightest, I want my SKILL to shine brightest

    Not sure what games you've been playing, but I have very rarely encountered people turning away capable tanks or healers to hold out for the best possible option to present itself. Especially when the difference between best and "worst" is a few shades of gray. In fact I would say the vast majority of people are just excited to have ANY available tank/healer for a group, even if the difference between classes in a role is notable. 

    That is one heck of an extreme imaginary scenario. All the tanks will be very capable tanks for all content, by VRs design goals and statements, so the idea that somehow having a DL means physical damage mobs will wipe the floor with them or give them a hard time is pretty absurd. 

    Skill will always shine the brightest, but there is a limit to how far it can take anyone and between two very skilled players sometimes the decision will come down to gear/class because if it doesn't then what is the point of having different classes/abilities for any given role to begin with? 

    • 35 posts
    September 23, 2019 9:00 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    TheBus88 said:

    and this gets back to my "human nature" comment

    ...

    then think about grouping situations, areas where mobs are mostly physial damage=war tank, undead=pally tank and magic=DL once players know this that is what they will go for, the other classes will be shunned/not wanted and elitism will rule the day yet again, or they have to make the content varies in such a way that you fight all three-good right?  well until that variance is 8 physical mobs in a row on a DL and he dies because no matter his player skill his class didn't just match up right, again not challenging, not fun.

     

    having played SWTOR where they had 3 classes per role, they did quite a good job (at least while I played it) at having all three classes shine just fine as long as the player had the gear and skill for the content

     

    I'd much rather want to have Player X with skill than need Player Y with less skill for their class because elitism ALWAYS rules in these games and steering the Pantheon Boat that way is a huge mistake in my 20+ years of MMO experience

     

    I don't EVER want my CLASS to shine the brightest, I want my SKILL to shine brightest

    Not sure what games you've been playing, but I have very rarely encountered people turning away capable tanks or healers to hold out for the best possible option to present itself. Especially when the difference between best and "worst" is a few shades of gray. In fact I would say the vast majority of people are just excited to have ANY available tank/healer for a group, even if the difference between classes in a role is notable. 

    That is one heck of an extreme imaginary scenario. All the tanks will be very capable tanks for all content, by VRs design goals and statements, so the idea that somehow having a DL means physical damage mobs will wipe the floor with them or give them a hard time is pretty absurd. 

    Skill will always shine the brightest, but there is a limit to how far it can take anyone and between two very skilled players sometimes the decision will come down to gear/class because if it doesn't then what is the point of having different classes/abilities for any given role to begin with? 

    \

     

    Not sure if you've ever done any serious raiding or MMO content but aparently you didn't play a Paladin/SK/Druid/Shaman in EQ1.....all of which were turned away for warriors or clerics, none of which were MTs or main healer in any serious raids.  I unfortunately created a paladin in EQ and lived this which weren't even wanted for raids, bosses immune to our stuns, no buffs, at least SKs had FD, druid and shamans had buffs.  sure I could tank some content, even some planis content but when it came to serious raids? nope.  "we'd prefer if you brought a different class".  so much fun.......

     

    and it is NOT absurd, the EXACT quote was:

    If the Dire Lord is unable to wear plate armor, won’t they be un-viable as a main tank in raids?

    Perhaps, with certain Physical damage-heavy encounters or bosses, and depending on specific encounter mechanics, Dire Lords may struggle compared to the higher AC Warriors and Paladins. However, from the conversations I hear and read, I think the Dire Lord’s incredible Magical damage mitigation is being heavily undervalued. You can trust that we are designing content with all 3 Tanks in mind, and there will be plenty of end-game content where the Dire Lord will shine the brightest.

     

    Pretty clear what was said.

     

    Pretty clear that they are designing at least some of the content by class and not the classes by content which is a mistake IMO

     

    Creating content where all things being equal a certain class "may striggle compared to higher AC classes" will lead to exactly what I am saying it will, guaranteed.

     

    Then if you read what they said about Pallys:

    Paladin

    Will there be enough Undead content to justify the Paladin’s forte, “vs. Undeath?”

    Yes. I’ll go so far to say that at launch and beyond, one of the main NPC groups in the Terminus storyline (making up one of our end-game raid areas) is entirely corrupted with Undeath. Paladins will be excellent, competitive main tanks that will have plenty of opportunities to flex their vs. Undeath prowess.

     

    An entire end-game raid area where Pallys will clearly "shine the britghtest" and you think people won't shun wars or DLs there?

     

    Again, I've played numerous MMOs and you see it in every single one of them, when a certain class "shines the brightest" or conversely, "struggles compared to others" those classes will be preferred or shunned.  period.  who is going to want to bring a class that will struggle???

     

    as for why to have different abilities for the same role, it is to have different play styles and looks per class, not have those abilities stand out or "shine the brightest" in certain situations because then by definition players will only want those in those situations.

     

    the worst part about this is that just a few months ago I was on here arguing that they WEREN'T going to do this, specifically in regards to the DL and now reading what their answers to these questions are it looks like they are.  and IMO it is not how a medern MMO should operate.

    • 1711 posts
    September 23, 2019 10:55 AM PDT

    TheBus88 said:

    If the Dire Lord is unable to wear plate armor, won’t they be un-viable as a main tank in raids?

    Perhaps, with certain Physical damage-heavy encounters or bosses, and depending on specific encounter mechanics, Dire Lords may struggle compared to the higher AC Warriors and Paladins. However, from the conversations I hear and read, I think the Dire Lord’s incredible Magical damage mitigation is being heavily undervalued. You can trust that we are designing content with all 3 Tanks in mind, and there will be plenty of end-game content where the Dire Lord will shine the brightest.

     Paladin

    Will there be enough Undead content to justify the Paladin’s forte, “vs. Undeath?”

    Yes. I’ll go so far to say that at launch and beyond, one of the main NPC groups in the Terminus storyline (making up one of our end-game raid areas) is entirely corrupted with Undeath. Paladins will be excellent, competitive main tanks that will have plenty of opportunities to flex their vs. Undeath prowess.

    Here's the problem I see with both those statements:  Neither one precludes the use of a Warrior!  Neither one says use of the Warrior will actually hinder the group in any significant way whatsoever.  So while the Paladin may 'shine' when facing undead content, you can still use a Warrior.  In in the raid situation where the magic damage output is higher than the physical damage output it still may prove to be better to use the warrior.

    Given all that, here is the problem I have with designing some content for this tank and some content for that tank:  The distribution of loot.  For those who played EQ1 can remember back to when we had just Nagafen and Vox and how Nagafen not only had far better loot than Vox but was also quicker/easier to reach and was a much easier target to kill.  Vox had no Cloak of Flames equivalent, nor did she have that 100% weight reduction container.  I have little to no faith that VR will both ensure that enough content exists to keep all 3 tank classes engaged as well as ensuring loot is equivalent so that the playerbase isn't shunning the paladin tanking mob because its loot table is crap.

    • 694 posts
    September 24, 2019 11:48 AM PDT

    @Vandraad  - Yep.  Legitimate concerns that I share as well.  I will not be playing the DL although that "flavor" of class would've been my 1st choice for RP purposes; I refuse to be the gimp class within my role again.  It was very painful watching loot go to underskilled warriors just because their class was better suited to tank and my SHD got stuck being the puller... when a monk wasn't available.  (A painful example was how I literally never got a CoF, or any other good haste drops (prior to PoP), because giving warriors haste was priority so they could hold agro... then haste went to rogues, then monks, then rangers, then bards, then... you get it).  People that think this will be different may be overly optimistic.  

    Given the info we have so far, I'm thinking that the Paladin will be very good at end game as well, since the entirety of their self healing doesn't rely on attacking an enemy (i.e. their healing is reliable/measureable and they don't take "extra" damage (comparitively) from attacks, but instead can dramatically increase their offense against some encounters).

    Edit:  @TheBuss88 - Glad to see that you can agree with me now ;p

    Edit#2:  @Iksar - Raids can afford for healers and DPS to vary in their abilities to perform their roles from class to class because others within the same role can "pick up the slack" so to speak.  If a raid has to pick up the slack for a tank, they are quickly picking up the loot off of their corpses... repeatedly... until they change tanks or quit.  No amount of skill can account for the tools you are given being broken - if they design a class with specific tools, there is no amount of skill that can be used to circumvent the mathematical programing without manipulating/hacking the code.  Underneath the pretty UI is nothing more than mathematical equations that are unchangeable by the player regardless of how fast and hard you hit your keyboard and click your mouse buttons...  Skill only goes so far - the first time a carpenter uses a nailgun instead of a wooden mallet, they will never use the wooden mallet again... regardless of what masterpieces they made with that old wooden mallet in the past... AND then, once everyone knows the nailgun is better than the wooden mallet, good luck selling any wooden mallets in the future, regardless of how much you upgrade that wooden mallet.  (i.e. Put good skill behind a better tool and you will get better results.)


    This post was edited by Darch at September 24, 2019 1:25 PM PDT
    • 35 posts
    October 24, 2019 11:28 AM PDT

    All of that is why I wish Direlord and Paladin were not tanks, or not considered as such in Raid.
    Maybe for xp groups fine but once you raid I think one Tank class is only what it takes.

    I hate games with multiple classes of tanks but only casual players playing all of them because they enjoy the feel or lore of them leaving the more "hardcore" or "dedicated" players with one class.
    If you play a tank you, SHOULD NOT have instance where you struggle more compared to other classes of the same role because it will result in player being like, we don't want that class for this area, even if you are a good player and are up to the task.

    I don't want to be locked out of an area because Paladin have to tank here (because undead or whatever the reason for other class) and I have my DL never grouped there because no one want to wipe 5 more time than a group with a paladin would.
    Or if you can't play your role, in certain area, make it that you have a secondary role you can perform at a good level, hence my vehement and relentless posts about me wating the DL to be able to DPS.

    Anyway, ... we can talk(write) and argue all we want, it will only mean something when we'll have something to play with to justify our theory crafting.


    This post was edited by Khraag at October 24, 2019 11:57 AM PDT
    • 694 posts
    October 29, 2019 8:42 PM PDT

    I agree @Khraag.  They're effectively dividing the tank role into at least two different roles (physical mitigation tank, and magic mitigation tank) which is a recipe for disaster when you only have a single class that can fill a "supposedly" important role (of magic mitigation tank).  This is what leads me to believe that the magic mitigation tank won't be as critical as some people are thinking it will be.  I think they would've been better off making the monk a tank class with diamond hard skin and giving the DL the feign death/puller/DPS role with magical off-tanking.  But that would've been too cool :p


    This post was edited by Darch at October 30, 2019 3:29 PM PDT