Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord HP Pool

    • 2356 posts
    July 16, 2019 4:13 PM PDT

    Annnnnnd there we go again with the bosses that 1-shot tanks, because that is the clear pinnacle of challenging encounter design and the only direction it can go. 

    • 38 posts
    July 16, 2019 4:24 PM PDT

     

    - Iksar

    you really hit the nail on the head, this is exactly how I feel. while yes the casual player that doesnt raid would faintliy see the difference. but an endgame raider its black and white. what worries me is ive played a DL style character since 1999 i love the class style thats what i want to play but i dont want to be a situational tank. expecially against magic damage, there's just not enough magic damage to create a tank a class designed around taking it even magic based mobs hit physical. and it was stated by joppa that all tanks should be able to do the same job just in different ways. now here is the kicker, im not saying DL is gimped obviously i wouldnt have the first clue. but as you said, you cant heal when your dead. and if we die to fast (in a raid or endgame dungeon boss) in 1-3 hits the class is pointless you cant heal that fast to make up for the straight damage reduction of the other classes.  hopefully this isnt the case but this is 100% how i see it playing out endgame. i know this class isnt an sk or DK but it resembles it.. it also resemebles it because they are following a path thats been done in every MMO with this tank since forever. first 2 years they suck until they say ok i get it. lower HoT's and give em plate...


    This post was edited by Rhelic at July 16, 2019 4:28 PM PDT
    • 368 posts
    July 16, 2019 5:07 PM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    All past MMOs with challenging endgame content contain raid bosses that can 1-shot all but the tankiest class(es). This is required content in order for the tankiest class to have a role in the end game since being tanky comes at the cost of DPS. If a higher DPS class is tanky enough for the biggest baddest boss, then there is no reason for a raid force to suffer the DPS penalty of using the lower DPS tanky class. If a raid needs to tank 5 mobs, and none of those mobs require the tankiest tank, then the raid will be better off using higher DPS classes in those spots. End game guilds will be raiding with this type of mindset, and it will be clear very quickly which classes are useless...just like it was in EQ1.

    Having said that, it's clear the Warrior will be the tankiest tank in terms of physical damage. The only way they will have a role if is they are the only class who can tank the hardest hitting mob in the end game, otherwise there will be no reason to put up with their lesser DPS.

    It looks like DLs may be the tankiest tank in terms of magic damage, so that works if there are end game mobs that require the DL's superior magic mitigation. It's a bit like making a class good against undead, and then creating enough undead content for it to matter.

    This notion that being able to self heal after taking damage as some sort of balance for lesser mitigation comes from a complete ignorance about end game content. If a DL has lesser mitigation and is 1-shotted by a mob he isn't going to be alive to self heal (same type of deal with evasion tanks). That type of tanking mechanic only works in trivial/group content, and nobody really cares about who's tanking in that content...because it's trivial.

    This argument ignores the effect that mitigation has on healers' mana.  A class with lower mitigation might not get 1 shot, but if the healers are having to heal significantly more to keep them up, it's probably not worth the hypothetical DPS increase you get from having a less tanky class tanking.  Secondly, the warrior brings a lot to the table in terms of providing support to the group.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a group with a warrior tank does more damage overall than a group with a DL tank because of the buffs the warrior brings.

    The issue with self-healing in raids is less so not being able to heal when you're dead and more about it being less impactful compared to mitigation when you have a whole group of healers trying to keep you up.  Mitigation scales with the incoming damage.  The self healing a DL or Paladin bring don't seem like they will.  

     


    This post was edited by zoltar at July 16, 2019 5:11 PM PDT
    • 368 posts
    July 16, 2019 5:37 PM PDT

    Rhelic said:

     

    - Iksar

    you really hit the nail on the head, this is exactly how I feel. while yes the casual player that doesnt raid would faintliy see the difference. but an endgame raider its black and white. what worries me is ive played a DL style character since 1999 i love the class style thats what i want to play but i dont want to be a situational tank. expecially against magic damage, there's just not enough magic damage to create a tank a class designed around taking it even magic based mobs hit physical. and it was stated by joppa that all tanks should be able to do the same job just in different ways. now here is the kicker, im not saying DL is gimped obviously i wouldnt have the first clue. but as you said, you cant heal when your dead. and if we die to fast (in a raid or endgame dungeon boss) in 1-3 hits the class is pointless you cant heal that fast to make up for the straight damage reduction of the other classes.  hopefully this isnt the case but this is 100% how i see it playing out endgame. i know this class isnt an sk or DK but it resembles it.. it also resemebles it because they are following a path thats been done in every MMO with this tank since forever. first 2 years they suck until they say ok i get it. lower HoT's and give em plate...

     

    I am actually okay with being a situational tank.  The issue is how situational would we be?  I think VR has the chance to strike a pretty good balance.  Some mobs might be primarily physical, some might be primarily magical, and others might be a mix of the two. 

    Anyway, I think the key here is that the Dire Lord should (and appears to) still be useful even when functioning as the off-tank.  Dire mark looks like a killer ability to enable the Dire Lord to tank some of the damage as the OT.  Splatter looks like an amazing ability to enable DOTs to be spread around to burn down adds.  Using Edge of Midnight to steal buffs from raid mobs could be really cool.  Grip of Torment can be used to reduce/prevent mobs from healing.  And Canopy of Bood can save an entire raid from a magic-based attack.  

    So if the DL is useful the vast majority of the time and gets to really shine in a lot of encounters, I'm completely fine with that.

     

    • 171 posts
    July 17, 2019 2:27 AM PDT

    Rhelic said:

     lower HoT's and give em plate...

    It's not the healing they'd have to lower, they'd have to remove the flat 10% mitigation to all damage. And to be frank I think with heavy mail and that 10% they are going to have the same if not more mitigation than plate, they will just be lacking a shield which the self heals will make up for. 10% flat mitigation is huge and its being over looked.

    • 1561 posts
    July 17, 2019 3:36 AM PDT

    Honestly, less mitigation but more health equal the same effective health against 1 shot attacks.

     

    Less armor but more innate mitigation can equal the same overall mitigation if tuned right.

     

    There's so much doable in this department, and we're not the day before the release.

    • 2356 posts
    July 17, 2019 2:03 PM PDT

    Rhelic said:

     

    - Iksar

    you really hit the nail on the head, this is exactly how I feel. while yes the casual player that doesnt raid would faintliy see the difference. but an endgame raider its black and white. what worries me is ive played a DL style character since 1999 i love the class style thats what i want to play but i dont want to be a situational tank. expecially against magic damage, there's just not enough magic damage to create a tank a class designed around taking it even magic based mobs hit physical. and it was stated by joppa that all tanks should be able to do the same job just in different ways. now here is the kicker, im not saying DL is gimped obviously i wouldnt have the first clue. but as you said, you cant heal when your dead. and if we die to fast (in a raid or endgame dungeon boss) in 1-3 hits the class is pointless you cant heal that fast to make up for the straight damage reduction of the other classes.  hopefully this isnt the case but this is 100% how i see it playing out endgame. i know this class isnt an sk or DK but it resembles it.. it also resemebles it because they are following a path thats been done in every MMO with this tank since forever. first 2 years they suck until they say ok i get it. lower HoT's and give em plate...

    I was being sarcastic, nscheffel has been spouting this nonsense for a long while.

    Bosses/raids with 1-shot designs vs tanks are poorly designed, lazy attempts at creating challenge and pretty much as dated and bland as basic tank and spank. 

     

     

    • 596 posts
    July 18, 2019 12:47 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Rhelic said:

     

    - Iksar

    you really hit the nail on the head, this is exactly how I feel. while yes the casual player that doesnt raid would faintliy see the difference. but an endgame raider its black and white. what worries me is ive played a DL style character since 1999 i love the class style thats what i want to play but i dont want to be a situational tank. expecially against magic damage, there's just not enough magic damage to create a tank a class designed around taking it even magic based mobs hit physical. and it was stated by joppa that all tanks should be able to do the same job just in different ways. now here is the kicker, im not saying DL is gimped obviously i wouldnt have the first clue. but as you said, you cant heal when your dead. and if we die to fast (in a raid or endgame dungeon boss) in 1-3 hits the class is pointless you cant heal that fast to make up for the straight damage reduction of the other classes.  hopefully this isnt the case but this is 100% how i see it playing out endgame. i know this class isnt an sk or DK but it resembles it.. it also resemebles it because they are following a path thats been done in every MMO with this tank since forever. first 2 years they suck until they say ok i get it. lower HoT's and give em plate...

    I was being sarcastic, nscheffel has been spouting this nonsense for a long while.

    Bosses/raids with 1-shot designs vs tanks are poorly designed, lazy attempts at creating challenge and pretty much as dated and bland as basic tank and spank. 

    I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that tanks will get 1 shot (i.e. killed faster than a healer can heal them) at some point.  You wouldn't need dedicated healers otherwise; if a raid of paladins could just swap threat and heal each other, or if a SHM could take several hits from a boss because they wear chain and can self heal (#DL) THAT would be poor game design IMO.  If raid bosses don't pressure players to play at their absolute best because if the tank dies and another tank can't take threat fast enough they all die, the game will flop - this is why the majority (not all) of MMO players play an MMORPG.  The RP is secondary to gameplay because you can RP in any game.  I'm on the same page as Nscheffel and Rhelic, and many others.  Math is math, but we will see if the devs can circumvent math in a way that no other game developer has been able to accomplish yet.  I really hope VR proves us wrong on this one... and yes, I have been involved in game development with Sony. 

    • 596 posts
    July 18, 2019 1:04 PM PDT

    zoltar said:

    I am actually okay with being a situational tank.  The issue is how situational would we be?  I think VR has the chance to strike a pretty good balance.  Some mobs might be primarily physical, some might be primarily magical, and others might be a mix of the two. 

    Anyway, I think the key here is that the Dire Lord should (and appears to) still be useful even when functioning as the off-tank.  Dire mark looks like a killer ability to enable the Dire Lord to tank some of the damage as the OT.  Splatter looks like an amazing ability to enable DOTs to be spread around to burn down adds.  Using Edge of Midnight to steal buffs from raid mobs could be really cool.  Grip of Torment can be used to reduce/prevent mobs from healing.  And Canopy of Bood can save an entire raid from a magic-based attack.  

    So if the DL is useful the vast majority of the time and gets to really shine in a lot of encounters, I'm completely fine with that.

    This is very logical Zoltar.  I too can see this as the way it is going to be and what VR is going for.  Some people will likely be dissapointed when they find out that the DL won't be "The Tank" of tanks and will argue it til they're blue in the face, but using this point of view will yield a much happier fan base. 

    • 2356 posts
    July 18, 2019 2:20 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that tanks will get 1 shot (i.e. killed faster than a healer can heal them) at some point.  You wouldn't need dedicated healers otherwise; if a raid of paladins could just swap threat and heal each other, or if a SHM could take several hits from a boss because they wear chain and can self heal (#DL) THAT would be poor game design IMO.  If raid bosses don't pressure players to play at their absolute best because if the tank dies and another tank can't take threat fast enough they all die, the game will flop - this is why the majority (not all) of MMO players play an MMORPG.  The RP is secondary to gameplay because you can RP in any game.  I'm on the same page as Nscheffel and Rhelic, and many others.  Math is math, but we will see if the devs can circumvent math in a way that no other game developer has been able to accomplish yet.  I really hope VR proves us wrong on this one... and yes, I have been involved in game development with Sony. 

    It's awful design. Bosses having a 1-shot mechanic that can be blocked by awareness/ability usage is fine, but having most bosses where they just do incredible amounts of normal attack damage to a tank? That's trash. Why is it important to have dedicated healer(s) nonstop spamming heal on a tank? What fun is that? Where is the variety, deep strategy, or tension? Sounds like classic tank and spank from EQ days, which is well past dated.

     

    Raids/bosses are dangerous endurance fights, a boss doesn't need to slap a tank silly (so much for being a tank when despite all your abilities you still fold like wet tissue) and force healers to keep slamming heal over and over for the fight to be challenging.

    • 1561 posts
    July 19, 2019 10:09 AM PDT

    Raid/Group damage is a pretty good justification for :

     

    -Hp gear on dps

    -Resist gear on dps

    -Dedicated healers with mana management

    -Efficient cooldown and mitigation by the tank.

     

    You don't need one-shot bosses everywhere (once in a while it's still a good exercise) if you manage things that way : a tank is the only one able to bear bosses slaps and the best he performs the more mana the healers have to keep the raid alive unless you want the fight to end witg only healers and a tank soaking damage for hours until they die out of starvation.

     

    • 596 posts
    July 20, 2019 6:05 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    It's awful design. Bosses having a 1-shot mechanic that can be blocked by awareness/ability usage is fine, but having most bosses where they just do incredible amounts of normal attack damage to a tank? That's trash. Why is it important to have dedicated healer(s) nonstop spamming heal on a tank? What fun is that? Where is the variety, deep strategy, or tension? Sounds like classic tank and spank from EQ days, which is well past dated.

     

    Raids/bosses are dangerous endurance fights, a boss doesn't need to slap a tank silly (so much for being a tank when despite all your abilities you still fold like wet tissue) and force healers to keep slamming heal over and over for the fight to be challenging.

    I agree that it is a dated mechanic, but that is why I am banking on it existing to some extent in PRotF, due to the drive of the game being a homage to a 20 year old game.

    • 424 posts
    July 28, 2019 12:07 PM PDT
    I think we will see a LOT more magic useing mobs, a good mix of physical and magical damage, though out the lvling experiance will make surw DLs have an Edge often, and the class will feel strong in these situations.
    • 596 posts
    July 29, 2019 8:35 AM PDT

    BamBam said: I think we will see a LOT more magic useing mobs, a good mix of physical and magical damage, though out the lvling experiance will make surw DLs have an Edge often, and the class will feel strong in these situations.

    I agree that there will likely be a lot of magic mobs Bambam, but even most magic using mobs will also do physical damage - whereas physical damage mobs don't often use magic damage...  Therein lies the "good mix" of physical versus magical tanking dilema.  (If there are encounters that have 0 physical damage, you likely wouldn't need a tank at all... just use CC - the same way a group of casters/kiters don't need a tank versus mobs that don't use ranged).  I'm thinking there will be as many magic based boss encounters for DL to main tank as there are undead boss encounters... not nearly as common as just using a warrior and healing through the spell damage occassionally (especially since the warrior can reflect spells too).

    But like you said, I'm sure the DL will be stronger in the magic based encounters, like the Paladin versus undead.

    • 1561 posts
    July 29, 2019 8:57 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    BamBam said: I think we will see a LOT more magic useing mobs, a good mix of physical and magical damage, though out the lvling experiance will make surw DLs have an Edge often, and the class will feel strong in these situations.

    I agree that there will likely be a lot of magic mobs Bambam, but even most magic using mobs will also do physical damage - whereas physical damage mobs don't often use magic damage...  Therein lies the "good mix" of physical versus magical tanking dilema.  (If there are encounters that have 0 physical damage, you likely wouldn't need a tank at all... just use CC - the same way a group of casters/kiters don't need a tank versus mobs that don't use ranged).  I'm thinking there will be as many magic based boss encounters for DL to main tank as there are undead boss encounters... not nearly as common as just using a warrior and healing through the spell damage occassionally (especially since the warrior can reflect spells too).

    But like you said, I'm sure the DL will be stronger in the magic based encounters, like the Paladin versus undead.

     

    I'm also wondering if they will use the "old trick" they used in PoP, where most mobs had "on hit procs" dealing magical damage that were quite nasty. In that design, you can easily balance bosses between physical and magical tanking if tanks need both but only have one of them.

    • 424 posts
    July 29, 2019 11:03 PM PDT
    Procs would be fine and even out the difference on auto attack a bit.

    I do think npc abilities can be mixed damage also to a degree. Poisionous blades, or a small throw abel exploding bomb of fire damage, icy bites and so on.

    Like the summoner can use fire/physical damaging abilities. It would be another way to add in some magic damage that again can even out the differance a bit.
    • 99 posts
    August 2, 2019 2:26 PM PDT

    zoltar said:

    nscheffel said:

    All past MMOs with challenging endgame content contain raid bosses that can 1-shot all but the tankiest class(es). This is required content in order for the tankiest class to have a role in the end game since being tanky comes at the cost of DPS. If a higher DPS class is tanky enough for the biggest baddest boss, then there is no reason for a raid force to suffer the DPS penalty of using the lower DPS tanky class. If a raid needs to tank 5 mobs, and none of those mobs require the tankiest tank, then the raid will be better off using higher DPS classes in those spots. End game guilds will be raiding with this type of mindset, and it will be clear very quickly which classes are useless...just like it was in EQ1.

    Having said that, it's clear the Warrior will be the tankiest tank in terms of physical damage. The only way they will have a role if is they are the only class who can tank the hardest hitting mob in the end game, otherwise there will be no reason to put up with their lesser DPS.

    It looks like DLs may be the tankiest tank in terms of magic damage, so that works if there are end game mobs that require the DL's superior magic mitigation. It's a bit like making a class good against undead, and then creating enough undead content for it to matter.

    This notion that being able to self heal after taking damage as some sort of balance for lesser mitigation comes from a complete ignorance about end game content. If a DL has lesser mitigation and is 1-shotted by a mob he isn't going to be alive to self heal (same type of deal with evasion tanks). That type of tanking mechanic only works in trivial/group content, and nobody really cares about who's tanking in that content...because it's trivial.

    This argument ignores the effect that mitigation has on healers' mana.  A class with lower mitigation might not get 1 shot, but if the healers are having to heal significantly more to keep them up, it's probably not worth the hypothetical DPS increase you get from having a less tanky class tanking.  Secondly, the warrior brings a lot to the table in terms of providing support to the group.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a group with a warrior tank does more damage overall than a group with a DL tank because of the buffs the warrior brings.

    The issue with self-healing in raids is less so not being able to heal when you're dead and more about it being less impactful compared to mitigation when you have a whole group of healers trying to keep you up.  Mitigation scales with the incoming damage.  The self healing a DL or Paladin bring don't seem like they will.  

     

    Nope. Swap out for higher DPS to shorten the fight and lower the amount of mana required for healing.

    This is basic end game mechanics...

    • 1561 posts
    August 3, 2019 2:18 AM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    Nope. Swap out for higher DPS to shorten the fight and lower the amount of mana required for healing.

    This is basic end game mechanics...

    Monthly visit of the."I got no argument beside relating to worst game designs" guy. 


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at August 3, 2019 2:18 AM PDT
    • 596 posts
    August 16, 2019 8:38 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    nscheffel said:

    Nope. Swap out for higher DPS to shorten the fight and lower the amount of mana required for healing.

    This is basic end game mechanics...

    Monthly visit of the."I got no argument beside relating to worst game designs" guy. 

    Nscheffel actually simply rebutted Zoltar's argument that was focused directly at him... ease up Mauv, I know you don't like Nscheffel for some reason, but we are all welcome to our opinions bud.

    • 1561 posts
    August 18, 2019 2:48 AM PDT

    I simply don't consider people slamming the very same argument endlessly while showing little to no respect to other posters, only visiting every other month for an everlasting post.

    No arguments, no risks, no implication.

    • 596 posts
    August 19, 2019 12:59 PM PDT

    I hear ya man.  I can appreciate the differing views/opinions that we all have.  I think it makes for some decent conversations and opens up people's minds to possible pros and cons that we may not have thought of previously.  I personally would rather consider any negative possibilities now and not be blind sided after thinking/hoping for something for 4-5 years and it not being anything like I thought.  (I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than let down).  But until the game is live, they are all just opinions :)

    Add:  I also agree with "most" everything that Nscheffel says in regard to "end game tanking" BECAUSE this is the way MMO mechanics have worked in every "successful" MMO that I've played.  With that said, some of us are optimistic that PRotF will break that mold (Nscheffel, along with a few others and myself, are not that optimistic about self healing beign a sufficient replacement to pure mitigation).


    This post was edited by Darch at August 19, 2019 1:07 PM PDT